Whelp, I actually didnt trade. I bought an ES300 Lexus, a 1994 one. I just got tired of all the climate control, windshield wiper, etc problems on my 87 300E. Although I did have some good times in the Benz, I wont miss it too much. It is sitting in the lot waiting to be bought at this moment.

I must take a minute to thank the makers and maintainers of this site, and all the great members. God help me as I try and find a Lexus website 1/10th as good as this one. Does anyone have any idea where to start looking for a Lexus website like this one?

By the way, do not fear, I am planning on buying a Benz roadster hopefully next summer, Lexus for work, Benz for the weekends.

__________________
2007 Corvette Convertible Torch Red
1996 MBz SL500
2008 Harley Davidson Night Rod Special

What is your initial impression of the ES300? How does it compare with your former 300E? Is there life after Mercedes-Benz?

…Tracy

In my opinion there is no comparision. But dont forget I am comparing a 1987 to a 1994. BUT, and its a big but, they have very close mileage. The MB has 160K, and the Lexus has 138K. The MB is very torn apart with this mileage, these are what are wrong with my 160K MB:

It eats up a quart of oil per 1000 miles on average (Common problem, "some" oil consumption is even termed "normal" by mercedes, heh)

The A/C never worked (I actually fixed it by resoldering all the solders on the circuit board, but it still doesnt blow cold air, another common problem is the evaporator)

Stock radio is a piece of crap.

Windshield wipers are very very dangerous in a storm, they have a tendency to not clean very well, giving a smeared appearance that is very dangerous at night with light reflecting off the smears.

Sunroof track is broken, also a somewhat unrare problem on these. Replace the cable 3 times, still pops out.

These MB's are sloooow off the line.

Of course that is only one MB versus millions of other ones. But if you do a search of this site, especially for "climate control", "valve seals, and "wipers" you will be amazed at how many people are asking for help with these very common problems. So far my ES, which has 20k less mileage, is absolutely mint. I can almost smell the new car smell. The way it is laid out inside is an absolute dream, as well as comfortable as hell. No leaking sunroof, no peeling trim, no wind noise, etc. Oh and forget about driving around my MB in the snow, my old Camaro from high school handled better in the snow.

I did have the opportunity to test drive a 1997 ES320, which I considered buying. What amazed me was that the interior was still cramped, it still had the same basic look to the dash and climate control system, the windshield wipers still sucked in the rain, and it was still slow off the line. One test drive with the Lexus is all it took for me, expensive Toyota or not, I am very happy with it. I had some good times in the MB, but will not miss it.

Dont get me wrong, I am not dissing MB's. My friend had a 1994 SL500 which was very cool, rode like a dream, and also cost 4 times as much as my Lexus. I think to get the "MB" feel you have to have one of the bigger MB's out there.

But I still plan on getting a Roadster next summer, they still look super sharp to me and are very affordable, very nice summer car.

__________________
2007 Corvette Convertible Torch Red
1996 MBz SL500
2008 Harley Davidson Night Rod Special

Spinedoc:
I hope you will keep us posted on how things go with the Lexus. I have been so happy with my '84 Celica GTS that I was looking at an ES300 before I got my MB. I opted for the MB because of 2 reasons. 1) The front wheel drive turned me off - my acura Legend has FWD and gets about 15k miles out of the outer CV joints, and 30k out of the inner CV joints. Expensive! 2) My japanese Toyota mechanic talked me out of the 85k mile Lexus I was looking at. He said the newer Japanese cars were real expensive to maintain after 100k miles (My Acura Legend has sure proved that!)

I would be interested in hearing about your long term post 100k experiences with the Lexus. I have about 249,000 on the Celica with nothing major so far.

__________________
John

2003 Firemist Red/grey leather SL 500
2015 Palladium Silver/black mbtex GLK 350
1987 Smoke Silver/burgundy mbtex 300E Sportline (SOLD)

Click to see 87 300E

You will be back at this site for the open discussion forum here that covers other foreign makes besides Mercedes. It is not very popular yet, but spread the word and they will come. I check that forum every so often.

__________________
1990 190E 2.6
1996 Grand Voyager 3.3
1985 Mustang GT 5.0 5 SPD
1982 Suzuki GS 750T

After reading some of your posts, it sounds like you don't know much about your 300E or for that matter cars in general. I think you and your 300E had a misunderstanding in terms of how you two relate......Your much better off with your Lexus........no personality conflicts.....

By the way, your 300E has a single windshield wiper.

Mike McKinney

__________________
1989 300CE - 269,000 km
1994 SL600 - 59,000 km

SpineDoc,

After reading your post, I do understand where you are coming from. However, onemust keep in mind that two cars of different age cannot be compared like apples to apples. Your Lexus is a 94, your Benz is an 87. That's 7 years of apart, technology advances and wear and tear.


I do agree with Shyne's opinion. Mu uncle once owned a 1985 190E 2.3 Benz, and now drives a 1995 LS 400. He's enjoying his Lexus much better now. Again, the difference in years. Mercedes are not made to be quick off the line, especially with your 300E, it's most likely an inline 6, where as your Lexus is a V-6. V-6's have better torque and acceleration, but inlines have better top speed.

In other words, I hope that you're happy with your Lexus. It's a nice car, no doubt, but to most of us at this forum, we prefer Benz for our own reasons.

Happy Driving,
vu

"After reading some of your posts, it sounds like you don't know much about your 300E or for that matter cars in general"

-I dont see how I dont know much about my car. I am just stating what went wrong with my particular auto,not anyone elses. This car has been serviced by the Mercedes dealership since I have obtained it. I have spent a ton of money on maintenance.

As far as the difference in age, yes I acknowledged that. There is a 7 year difference in technology, but the wear and tear is closer, they are only 20K miles apart in wear and tear.

But I think everyone got the wrong impression. I still love MB's, just not my particular auto, just bad luck, or previous owner bad maintenance I suppose. I still plan on buying MB in the future, just not the small or mid size ones.

JDUB what is the URL for that foreign auto forum? I did a lot of searching and there are no forums anywhere near as good as this one.

__________________
2007 Corvette Convertible Torch Red
1996 MBz SL500
2008 Harley Davidson Night Rod Special

Doc,, good luck with the new wheels. But as someone stated, there is a seven year age difference. There is a lot of plastic and vinyl used in the trimmings on both model lines and these bits tend to exponentially deterioate with age. This is true no matter who makes the car. As far as mechanical stuff. If you take care of fluids and maintainance and the like, you will probably get reasonable service from the Lexus. An 87 300E is just about 15 years old (considering production dates). How many other things do you own that are as old and still function well.

Anyway, enjoy your new car. I wish you many years of happy motoring (well at least 15 anyway )..

__________________
Jeff Lawrence
1989 300e
2000 Dodge Grand Caravan SE
No matter what you fix, there will always be something else to fix..
"Warranty" is just another way of postponing the inevitable.

I agree with much of what the doc said. As anyone with any objectivity knows, an old MB is probably a bigger money pit than any other older mass-produced car, with the exception of an older Jaguar, which compares with the cost of restoring a Victorian house. Older MBs require religious maintenance, by competent techs, and the parts are very expensive, even compared to BMW/Audi/Volvo/etc. parts. The 300E was and is a wonderful car, and still seems pretty modern, which is saying a lot considering that the car debuted in 1986. That said, no 300E is a match for a Lexus ES300 (and don't even think about comparing it to a GS300) when it comes to user friendliness and general freedom from hassles. Or performance, for that matter. The Benz does have a more handmade look and feel compared to the monotonous perfection of the Lexus, but the vast majority of car buyers prefer monotonous perfection to character. And even Lexus owners admit that their cars have little character. I myself happen to like the older 124 body Benzes, but the hassles of owning a 15 year-old Mercedes are more than even I want to deal with, and my cars include an '82 Volvo (no oil burning, cold a/c, zero hassles except exhaust system every three years; 222,000 miles) a '72 BMW 2002 (too simple to have any expensive problems, great fun) and a '71 Triumph TR-6 (also very simple and consequently trouble free, and the sound of its stainless sport exhaust system is awesome). I'll have a Benz when I can afford a new one with an extended warranty. (should be before I'm 40) :-)
Colin

CMCon98:
My experience has been that the MB is NOT a bigger moneypit than any other older mass produced car. I own both an '87 300E and an '88 Acura Legend Coupe. The MB was my father's car, and received sub standard service until I acquired it 2 years ago. My Legend received religious service including garaging every night in SoCal, 6 month waxing, Mobile 1 at 3 k intervals, and all service performed on schedule or early.

My experience (and that of 2 friends/acquaintances with this vintage Acura) has been that the Acura started disintegrating while still under warranty, that plastic parts, electronic circuit boards, switches, wiring, and mechanical components have been of marginal quality and break frequently, and that the parts are more usually more expensive than an MB ($1000 for just an AC compressor, $200+ for a power window switch.) Also, the car has design flaws such as an instrument cluster circuit board that rubs on the dash inner structure and shorts out, Door hinges on the 2 door Coupe taken from the 4 door (to save money) that allow the doors to sag and rattle, Seat belt fasteners that fail, so much weight on the front wheels that it eats brakes and CV joints, etc. ad infinitum. Go to the Technical service bulletin list at http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/tsb/servicemmy1.cfm and enter the 2 cars for comparison. The Acura has 100 TSBs, the MB has 15, 3 of which were not on the gas model, but applied only to the diesel.

My MB and my Toyota Celica are pretty comparable in reliability and expense to operate, at least to this point. The Acura, however, has duplicated all the problems I had with my previous Honda product, a Civic. There will be good and bad examples of each model out there, but my MB, despite 10 years of mechanical near-neglect, is a better, safer, and higher quality vehicle than my perfectly maintained Acura (And, I suspect, a better quality car than the new Cadillac I considered in 1988 but walked away from after the door handle came off in my hand when I tried to open the door at the dealers lot!). Nothing lasts forever, but I will be really sad when "Leise" needs to be retired a couple of hundred thousand miles from now. Cheers!

__________________
John

2003 Firemist Red/grey leather SL 500
2015 Palladium Silver/black mbtex GLK 350
1987 Smoke Silver/burgundy mbtex 300E Sportline (SOLD)

Click to see 87 300E

To me, it all comes down to proper maintenance. Being the second owner you can never know if it was maintained properly.
I have a 1988 300CE with the 103 engine. The car has 125k miles on it. Keep in mind these are “Guam” miles. Our average temperatures are in the high eighties throughout the whole year, a lot of humidity, salt, very bad roads, short distance running(longest trip 20miles), no garage etc. In other words, it’s like owning a 250k mile car in the States with highway miles.
Other than regular maintenance parts (plugs, wires, dist., rotor, injectors, filters, wiper blade, pads, b rotors, fluids), I’ve only changed the water pump and alternator. The pump costs $85 (Mercedes rebuilt) and the alternator around $250 (Bosch rebuilt). Who says that Mercedes parts are expensive? I think that the prices are very very reasonable considering the car and the quality. Have you ever tried buying original Honda parts or Toyota (Lexus)?
Anyway, if any of you guys decide to visit someday I will show you my beautiful 88 CE. Everything works perfectly. There are no oil leeks, the interior still looks brand new (drivers seat gets a 9 out of 10 very small sign of wear on it), transmission is as crisp as the day I bought it (MB oil change twice a year), engine oil 3000 miles (mobil 1), and the biggest surprise is the AC, with no repairs to date whatsoever. I’ve never changed the head gasket or valve seals. However, I’ll be changing the timing chain soon, just to be on the safe side.
MB rules, and as far as I am concerned I’ll never waste my time with any other car, not even a copycat that uses Mercedes technology (Lexus aka Toyota).
I’m not trying to pick a fight here. Lexus is a great car and I think that they are very close quality wise especially with Mercedes cost cutting, do to the competition, but Lexus will never have that German feeling and most importantly the great heritage behind the three-pointed star.

Vinamg


[Edited by vinamg on 03-27-2001 at 11:41 AM]

I've had nothing but good luck with my '91 560 SEL. Almost 102k miles and bought it used (I'm the second owner).

From my experience, parts are not that much more, or even less than Japanese cars in many cases.

I think it comes down to one's car philosophy: Do I want a car that lasts forever, is safe and built like vault, has simple, elegant engineering, easy to work on and not overly "gadgety" ? (I'm talking MBs up to the early 90's mind you ). do I wan't something to drive then dump after a few years?

I've owned Japanese, Swedish, Italian (yikes) and American cars (still have 2 Oldsmobiles, one as a collector the other a beater) and nothing compares to the Benz. All the other's seemed to be built as disposable cars. Drive it until something major goes wrong(e.g. it's not penny-wise to sink more $$ into a heap), so junk it or sell at a huge loss.

The Benz, if maintained properly, will always have *that* value. I plan on keeping the W126 forever and when my POS Delta 88 dies, I'll buy a 10 year old W124 and keep that car forever.

In response to John's post above, I think your points are well-taken, but I was comparing the 300E to a '94 Lexus ES300, not an '88 Acura Legend. I agree that the Legend is a piece of crap. A friend of mine has an '88 Legend sedan, and while it always starts and moves on its own power, it is a complicated engineering nightmare which always has something wrong with it. Lexus cars are in another league when it comes to quality and reliability, and seem to hold their value pretty well, too. While I am definitely no fan of Japanese cars (too bland for me), my friends that drive Lexuses (Lexi?) never stop blathering about how much they love their cars and how wonderful their dealers are.

I'd be willing to bet you that (all other things being comparable) a 1990 Lexus LS400 with 150,000 miles on it has retained a higher percentage of its purchase price in resale value than a 1990 MB S-class. I'd also bet that with equal upkeep on both cars, the Lexus would still be as solid and reliable as the Benz, if not more so. I know it's hypothetical, but what do you folks think?
Colin

I don't know what the exact numbers and ratios are, but when I was looking for a "new" car, I looked at used cars, too.
I was looking for something not TOO old, maybe 5 years old at the most, hopefully a little newer.
I thought (for some reason, not sure why) that Lexus would be a better used car buy than BMW or MB, but I was actually quite surprised at how much used Lexus cars cost. In my admittedly unscientific survey of used cars over a period of a few months, I was left with the impression that Lexus actually holds up its value as well (or actually even better) than BMW or Lexus. I couldn't find a good deal (from a buyer's perspective) on a used one.