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  #31  
Old 07-14-2001, 01:45 AM
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Watch out, here comes that a**hole caveman again

Longston:

Excellent. I like it. You must have one hell of a telephoto lens. And you caught me on a GOOD day!

For whatever it’s worth, I am not afraid of using X-66, and have done so under the right circumstances. It is truly an excellent product. It is not Plutonium, but did you notice the Cesium listed on the ingredients panel? . I too have been around chemicals much more dangerous than this stuff. You’ll need to shoot another picture while I’m spraying diazinon & chlorpyrifos around the house in my haz-mat suit.

Seriously, it is not just “a simple carburetor cleaner/decarbonizing agent”. That statement only promotes the ‘casual use’ of which I spoke. You haven’t even obtained the product yet, correct?

You stated <<”I feel that the members here are mature and responsible enough to know what is right for their given appliction, and fully capable to make their own rational decisions”>> I'm sorry, but I’ve seen too much evidence that contradicts your viewpoint. I respect the viewpoints of others; everyone is entitled to their own. (People that do not are the ones that start flame wars. I do not wish this to become one.) We just happen to disagree. Such is life. No big deal.

However, that said, I’ll alienate a lot of people for saying this, but your estimation of the level of expertise that is prevalent on these forums is much higher than mine. There ARE a lot of *extraordinarily knowledgeable* people here, but just as many that are still learning (to use a euphemism). Sometimes the truth hurts. But I gotta call it as I see it. And I see a lot of postings that are indicative of less than ‘common’ sense, let alone mechanical proficiency or theoretical understanding. There is at least one posting (name shall remain undisclosed out of respect) from someone that wants to use the product, and can’t even identify one of the major engine components to which a reference was made. Someone here already used it and did not follow the directions. What does this indicate to you?

Do you *really* and *truly* believe that *everyone* here is capable of making the *right* decision? How many times have you witnessed people that honestly thought they *absolutely* knew something that they really did not? Ego is a killer. I (hopefully) am cognizant of when I am out of my league - that is when I try to obtain additional information. I try not to let megalomania get in my way.

One of the purposes of this forum is education for those wishing to learn. To (potentially) steer someone down the wrong path does not help that person, nor the credibility of those that post here.

And Mervyn: you are absolutely right, and it bears repeating, so I am quoting you here: << “The idea is to practice caution, do your research, be responsible and finally always make a calculated informed decision” >>. So very, very true. But always take your *source* of information with a grain of salt. (Even if it comes from me ). The "been there, done that" group of people” carries a lot of weight in my book. That is why I am doggedly pursuing a problem in another thread – someone’s undoubtedly already ‘been there, done that’ and I’m looking for the information that that individual may be able to provide. All the hypothesizing in the world isn’t going to get me where I need to go, at least not efficiently.

To lighten things up a bit here, I feel compelled to throw out my favorite tag lines under my sign-off. It must be the fever from this cold getting to me, as one is really not applicable for this forum.

Best of Luck to All
RTH

Ignorance is due to the lack of information; Stupidity is the lack of ability to utilize information.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste, yet so many don’t even have the opportunity.

Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes to the core.

Do it right, do it once.



[Edited by RunningTooHot on 07-14-2001 at 01:51 AM]

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  #32  
Old 07-14-2001, 10:08 AM
CJ CJ is offline
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YIKES!!!!!!!!
I do not want my last page to be a $6,000 page!!!
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  #33  
Old 07-14-2001, 05:45 PM
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Thanks For Being A Good Sport...

I was not implying that you were afraid of USING X-66, just that you seem to be selling fear after having used it successfully yourself. To say that you are capable of using this product, but then rail against it's "casual" use by anyone else sends a somewhat condescending message indicating that you are one of an elite force of people who possess extrodinary intellect, judgement, skill and abilities far beyond those of we mortal men...

I don't think that's what you meant to say, and I certainly don't detect that in your intentions, but the Pandora's Box, Worms, and Murphy stuff was a little extreme. I hope you see what I am saying, and understand the PhotoShop photo-op was a joke to lighten things up. You see, to even imply that someone may not be able to handle this product sets off the "Testosterone Challenge" in all of us males. What do you mean, I can't drink as much, drive as fast, jump as high, punch as hard, lift as much weight, etc. You see, your warnings as stated may actually have the opposite effect from what you intended.

Every repair to our cars has the potential for injury, or harm to the car itself. Even simple interior repairs using a common screwdriver can result in ripped upholstery, and/or punctured skin. We all need to understand our skill level and operate within what we feel comfortable doing, and not attempt repairs that we haven't at least thought through carefully. remember Police Inspector Harry Callahan's famous line, "A man's gotta know his limitations"...

So lets do a little science here. First, if your car is less than 10 years old, you most likely don't need this stuff, especially if you have done proper maintenance on it. And I wouldn't suggest using it in a diesel engine because the diesel is an engine that operates on compression ignition, and the flash point of X-66 and it's Liquefied Petroleum Propellant component is likely to be much lower than that of diesel fuel. If you didn't understand what I just wrote, just forget about X-66.

Next, while I respect both RTH and Steve for their cautions on this product, there is nothing from ACDelco indicating that it is anything but what they call it, "Carburetor Tune-Up Conditioner". Their product literature doesn't indicate use by only qualified professional technicians, or indicate that any extreme precautionary measures be taken when using it. In fact, I've seen common household cleaners with harsher warnings and precautions.

And, there seems to be two seperate products here. There's ACDelco Carburetor Tune-Up Conditioner, ACDelco part # X-66(A,P,orQ), GM part # 12302498 (for the aerosol). And then there's GM Top Engine Cleaner, GM part # 1050002. When I initially did research on this product, I could only find the GM stuff, which pmizell ended up using successfully. Leaving it in the engine longer than suggested was not extreme, or out of line, and is perfectly within operating parameters. However, there is still some confusion as to whether or not these are two separate products, or the same one with two different labels. Perhaps pmizell could tell us if the chemical contents are identical to what I am listing here?

Now, I have a can of the X-66A aerosol right here next to me. There is a paragraph of danger warnings at the top of the label on the back that is the standard stuff about it being flammable, that it's under pressure, that it's harmful or fatal if swallowed, not good to get it in your eyes, may cause skin, eye, respiratory tract irritation, avoid eye, skin, and clothing contact, use with adequate ventilation, etc. Pretty standard stuff. The only indication of being exceptionally nasty stuff is that it can be absorbed through the skin.

It says that it "contains solvents and penetrating agents designed to remove gum, carbon, and other deposits from the fuel induction system. It frees sticky valves and sluggish compression rings, and removes excessive deposits from the combustion chamber. For best results, X-66A should be used in conjunction with an engine tune-up."

The contents listed are:

Petroleum Naptha CAS 8030-30-6
2-Butoxy ethanol CAS 111-76-2
9-Octadecenoic acid(Z)-, ammonium salt CAS 544-60-5
Liquefied petroleum propellant CAS 68476-86-8
2-pentanol, 4-methyl CAS 108-11-2

The directions are:

1. Warm engine up to normal operating temperature

2. Remove air cleaner, run engine at medium idle (about 750 rpm).

3. Spray cleaner directly into carburetor venturi, striking automatic choke plate, main throttle plate and shafts. Spray around venturi walls and over entire exposed area. NOTE: spray will reduce rpm to 400 - 500; this is normal.

4. When can is empty, immediately stall engine by turning off ignition.

5. Let engine stand for 5 - 10 minutes.

6. Restart engine, open and close throttle rapidly, within normal limits, for two minutes.

7. Replace air cleaner.

8. if necessary, adjust settings of air bleeds and idle screw.

I don't see anything out of the ordinary here, this stuff is just a carburetor cleaner and decarbonizing agent. Although it may be a particularly effective one, and consequently possess additionally harsh chemical agents in it. It should be treated with proper caution and respect, but there isn't that much difference I can see between it and say, Berryman B-12, or any other solvent carburetor cleaner. However, I would strongly suggest an oil & filter change after using it.

Here's my plan for using this stuff. I have a '92 Ford Aerostar with about 102K miles on the clock. The van runs pretty good, but has a hesitation and slight shudder at idle sometimes. It also is using a quart of oil every 1000 miles. Ford says that level of oil use is normal. I don't see any smoke, or any oil drips. So, I am getting ready to do an oil & filter change, and before I do, I will run this poop through the air intake into the plenum to clear out whatever nasty carbon has accumulated, and we'll see if this makes any improvement in the oil usage, idle, and/or general performance.

"...a page of history is worth a volume of logic."
Oliver Wendell Holmes

"We have nothing to fear, but fear itself."
Sir Winston Churchill

"The only dumb question was the one you were afraid to ask."
Anonymous

"Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong."
Oscar Wilde

"Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe."
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Scott Longston
Northern California Wine Country...
"Turbos whistle, grapes wine..."
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  #34  
Old 07-14-2001, 06:04 PM
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I must say, we have the best customers anywhere. It's so nice the way everyone works for the good of the mass..

Thank you,
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  #35  
Old 07-14-2001, 07:32 PM
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Hey everybody, it was such a gorgeous day that I decided to take a pleasure drive through the the Napa valley (wine country). There are some wonderful, scenic two-lane twisties throughout the region.

I was driving along, enjoying the scenery, when I happened upon some debris in the roadway. I had to swerve pretty hard to avoid a couple of pistons, some bent rods, & other assorted innards from an engine, all of which was strewn across the roadway. Then, as I rounded the next bend, I saw a Ford Aerostar on the shoulder, with smoke billowing up from under the hood. Darnedest thing, there was a guy, apparently the owner, calmly standing by the car chugging down some chardonnay right from the bottle.

I notice that Longston hasn’t posted here for a few hours; do you think it’s just a coincidence? - - - - - -

RTH

Sorry to say it, but I don’t have photoshop on my computer. This will have to suffice.


[Edited by RunningTooHot on 07-14-2001 at 07:50 PM]
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  #36  
Old 07-14-2001, 07:50 PM
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geesh. is this a contest to see who can write the longest reply??!!!! cmon yall
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  #37  
Old 07-15-2001, 06:15 AM
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I would say that this is one thread that gets better with time, just like good ole wine.....

Now, just two comments.

1. I'm wondering if the procedure for using the pourable version of the X66 (X66P/Q) is the same as the one Scott posted for the aerosol version?

2. For the liquid version, what should be the recommended discharge rate of the decarbonizing agent into the venturi?

Mervyn
1983 W126 (280SEL)
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  #38  
Old 07-15-2001, 09:16 PM
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Gnats Buzzin' Around Here Somewhere...

But that's ok, it's just the nature of gnats. As with all things, I will give them the attention best afforded gnats.

Mervyn,

I think your question is best addressed by the only true expert involved in any of these X-66 threads so far. And that would be Steve Brotherton. As an expert Mercedes Tech with direct experience using this stuff, he is in the best position to advise anyone on the issues you have brought up.

As for me, I am just an interested party who enjoys doing research, and will continue to see what further information I can find out about both the GM and ACDelco products.

I would encourage anyone (tech or not) who has constructive experience or additional information to contribute on the subject of this thread to please do so.
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  #39  
Old 07-15-2001, 09:39 PM
brianguy
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The local GM dealer here(Vancouver) sells a product called
"Cleens" by GM.This is described as a "combustion chamber conditioner".When I asked about Delco X66 the guy said"this
is the same stuff". Part #992872 500ml cost me $4.25CAN.I am going to try it out on a '73 BMW 3.0 cs and will report the results.The instructions for use appear identical to what has been posted here already.There is not much in the way of precautionary language but that probably has more to do with the amount of space the French translation takes than anything else.
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  #40  
Old 07-15-2001, 10:03 PM
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Who me? I am normally against the use of most additives. I haven't put anything in the oil of any car I have owned in the last 30 years. The only thing I have against them is that they cost money.

But thats not the question. Actually, I'm not sure what the question is. I do believe in the product's capability to reduce carbon. This is a useful capability. I might recommend it to those with 100k on most any engine. Its great benefit is that its cheap. The BG folks make a very good product but they get near 15 wholesale for one dose.

Personally, I think the Motovac does a better job, but people gotta get a lot for the service based upon the price of the equipment.

Overuse of most additives is usually just a matter of the cost of the additives. Improper use here can cause engine damage. I think the largest risk is in the technique. If you use the aerosol the flow rate is regulated. I never do it that way and I could swear the two products do not smell the same. I only use the poptop version for the internal cleaning with the aerosol used for throttle bodies/plates. If done carefully there is little risk. The mechanisms for removing carbon include softening, dissolving and smashing. It's the smashing that is not safe for those without experience which includes everyone including me. I don't know if you read the post where I talked about the old techs at the Chevy Dealer I worked at 30 years ago. They could mechanically dispense with carbon by flooring the throttle while keeping the engine at about 3000 rpm by drowning it simultaneously with water, carb cleaner, ATF, etc whatever was handy. It wasn't the detergent that was getting rid of the carbon but the mechanical force.

When I currently do decarboning it is usually an extreme case and I use a conservative mechanical approach using high amounts sucked into the plenum at low speed (1000rpm). I introduce enough to bring the speed to near stall and maintain this till the solvent is used up. I let it sit and then run the ***** out of it.

I believe that it takes skilled personnel to know when to use the product. I don't see much point in its use otherwise except maybe as a once every 100k service. There are products like Techron that do most of the same job through the fuel tank.

I think the warnings and fun used in this discussion should have gotten the point across. Please don't use the stuff unless for good reason, our atmosphere will thank you.

[Edited by stevebfl on 07-15-2001 at 10:12 PM]
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  #41  
Old 07-16-2001, 12:14 AM
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Thank You, Steve...

Based on what we have learned so far, I thought it might be instructive to post a photo of someone deliberately misusing X-66A. Kids, don't try this at home:



There is NO NEED to test this product at the auto parts store in this manner!

Now THAT's what I call Running Too Hot...
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  #42  
Old 07-16-2001, 07:25 AM
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Clarification

I’ve received a couple of E-mails regarding my chemotherapy analogy. Apparently my intent was not clear to all.

The analogy was meant to point out that a proper diagnosis is a prudent course of action prior to initiating treatment. This is true of many things, human or mechanical.

If you are *absolutely* sure that you have a carbon build up problem, to the point of it *significantly* interfering with proper engine function, then by all means, try using the X-66. Since the alternative is (at minimum) partial disassembly of the engine, what do you have to lose? (Assuming that you follow directions.) If you are not sure what is creating a problem, then take the proper course of action. That means figuring out what *is* causing the problem.

My concerns about X-66 may seem overblown – even diametrically opposed to other viewpoints here. However, prudence is the better part of valor. I believe that many people will want to use X-66 as a shot of magic elixir for their engine when there is not any actual carbon problem. How many people will attempt to use it when it is unnecessary? Who knows. I can foresee that many will however.

Here’s what I see as a typical scenario: Lets say that my car was misfiring a little bit, and it’s about time for a tune up anyway. So I put in some new sparkplugs and check the timing. It’s better, but it still misfires a little bit. So now the ‘parts swap’ mentality kicks in, and I throw a new cap & rotor in. But it still runs a bit rough. What do I do next? It could be the plug wires, but boy those sure are expensive. Aw shucks, the car is X years old, so why not treat her to a new set of wires. But the problem remains. I’m getting a bit frustrated, I mean I just threw $200 at the problem and it’s still not fixed. So what do I do now? Well, you know, - the car *is* X years old, so it could be carbon build up. Heck, this here X-66 stuff is only five bucks, why not give it a shot? It would be the path of least resistance (read: easy). And guess what, after using the X-66, the problem is *still* there. So now I have unnecessarily subjected my engine to the X-66 treatment. AFTER the X-66 is used, I may or may not finally figure out what was *really* wrong, which could be any one of a myriad of things – from problems with the fuel injection system, or a vacuum leak, a bad coil or ignition box, etc., etc.

The point is that the X-66 would have been used, *with* it’s potential for harm, (not to mention the pollution) unnecessarily. This is why I kept using the phrase “a treatment of last resort” as a mantra. If you cut your finger severely, go get some stitches. Don’t have them amputate your arm because you *might* develop gangrene.

Excuse my morbidity here, but this subject has been beaten to death, pulled from the grave and beaten some more. What else can we do here?

RTH
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  #43  
Old 07-16-2001, 10:26 AM
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Continued Abuse Of Deceased Equines...

While I see your point, and understand that we are all interested in providing accurate information to keep people from using the wrong "magic bullet" at the wrong time, I still don't see how this is a last resort product.

Again, on the can, it says that it: "contains solvents and penetrating agents designed to remove gum, carbon, and other deposits from the fuel induction system. It frees sticky valves and sluggish compression rings, and removes excessive deposits from the combustion chamber. For best results, X-66A should be used in conjunction with an engine tune-up."

The proper application of this product as stated by the manufacturer is to use it prior to doing a tune-up in order to eliminate carbon, gum and/or varnish from the fuel induction and combustion areas of your engine. In doing so, hopefully you eliminate two of the three possible areas of problems that call for a regular tune-up, namely the air and fuel systems, leaving the ignition system as the last area to be tuned in the process.

I just got off of the phone after an informative discussion with the parts manager at a local GM dealership. Bottom line? He sells cases of the GM Top Engine Cleaner to both independent and factory-trained mechanics all over our area who rave about how well it works. He has 38 years selling parts for GM dealerships, and can't remember a day when the didn't have it in stock, and after comparing the labels on the two products, GM & ACDelco, we agreed that they are identical. His suggestion for application of the product? Cars that don't get driven enough on the highway, idle in traffic a lot, only get driven on short trips around town, and/or have high mileage on them and haven't been tuned and driven regularly. I asked him if he thought it was a product of last resort, and his answer was a simple no.

However, I think we all know that there are no "magic bullets" in a can that can easily solve engine problems. This product is just a tool that when used properly may help your car run better, but certainly shouldn't be used before every oil change, or every 5 or even 10 thousand miles as a preventative measure. The best maintenance program is one based upon regular tune ups, oil and filter changes, proper cooling system and fluid changes, as well as proper adjustments and replacement of the parts that wear out like belts, brake pads, and the like. Not using chemicals to try to avoid, or make up for not doing proper maintenance
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  #44  
Old 07-16-2001, 03:19 PM
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Sorry I don’t post here very much anymore, but I do look at stuff here from time to time. This X66 & GM top cleaner discussion really caught my eye. This stuff is something that I have used on different cars exactly 6 times. Why do I know exactly how many times? Because it workd really good the first 5 and on number 6 the engine seized up some pistons while I was blowing it out. It was an old girlfriends old chevy Corsica. She got rid of the car and I got rid of her. Ha ha. 2 problems solved. Who wants a girl that drives a chevy anyways, right? I know that we are in a Mercedes community here, but an engine is an engine. No offense, but it sounds like at least 2 people here know their ass from a hole in a block. Lighten up and chill out people!
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  #45  
Old 07-17-2001, 08:05 AM
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No comment from me.

Would anyone else care to comment on this?

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