Larry,


I was noticing that the aux fan prices for the pair of later 124 fans VS the earlier. So, even if I run R12 can I use the later style parts(condensor and fans) for more heat removal capacity!


Michael

I thought that the later cars had dual fans. I expect that the condensor is also different. I can't imagine the fans alone making a 15% difference, certainly not at highway speed.

Adding this fan to an R12 system would be unnecessary and provide a very marginal improvement.

Have a great day,

Cold AC
 

I have been introduced to a replacement R12 coolant named "Freeze 12" which cools to 38 degrees in a Chevy Custom Van (full-size w/V8), and "Industrial 12" which claims to be cooler and more efficient than Freeze 12, and both coolants are R12 compatible.

Industrial 12a claims to be "fool proof" even working fine with zero vacum! I have a few cars that I will be charging with Industrial 12a this week, and I'll be glad to post my results and temp readings, with outside temp. as well as humidity levels.

This site has all of your AC needs met, by far the best I've seen online, or anywhere else for that matter.

Freeze 12 info click here: http://autorefrigerants.com/co00030.htm

Industrial 12a click here: http://autorefrigerants.com/co00033.htm

Happy surfing! :D

Be careful on how you use the word "compatible". I think you mean these alternatives don't require flushing and changing refrigerant oils.

It is *completely* illegal to mix refrigerants. I personally think R134a cars should stay R134a and R12 should stay R12. I think the alternatives cause lots of problems with later servicing.

Most shops have recovery equipment for R-12 and R-134a. They are not setup to service a modified system. So, in the future you may find yourself on your own. Not a pleasant experience- think of being on a road-trip in Arizona this time of year and no shop willing to service your system.


I think freon must be more hottly discussed than everything but synthetic oils.


Michael

Being Careful
 

Guess if one read what the manufacturer states about the Freeze 12 and Industrial 12a, then the reader would be educated about these new products. :)



If you were to read the links I posted in my last post, you would be able to read and understand why these are on the market to begin with. I'm glad to see that opinions are still given freely though....lol....

If you say so...but Freeze 12 will outcool your r134a any day....hot or cold day! :D

There is absolutely no doubt that Freeze 12 and most other snake oil refrigerants will outcool 134. That is not the question.

Each of these snake oils fall in one of two categories, flammables or blends. I think Freeze 12 is a flammable. If you are going to insist on using it, you can save lots of money by just using propane. Propane will cool even better than Freeze 12 and it is much cheaper. If you decide to use either one, however, you should know that they are illegal in 18 states and the District of Columbia.

As for the blends, the problem is that they leak off at different rates. If you get a leak, you have to recover all of it and then recharge. As a previous poster pointed out, very few shops are equipped to recover the snake oils.

There are many replacement refrigerants that will work and keep you cool. It amazes me how many people get so hung up over paying an extra $30 or $40 for refrigerant when usually before putting in refrigerant you just got through spending hundreds or thousands repairing the problem that caused you to have to put in the refrigerant.

My $0.02,

Get up and preach Larry!

I don't get it either. R-12 cars cooled great and freon is the lowest denominator in repair costs. IF you are recovering- which is maniditory by law, then you might only need 1-2 lbs unless it is a complete system failure.
NC- Do you always believe the company's information as being 100% accurate? Not sure what you will end up with.

I remember a guy I worked with which did a quick conversion to R134a because he was cheap and didn't want to fix the leak. It cooled fantastic- because he had it *way* over charged. It was marginal when charged correctly and it was a small Ford truck. Pretty sure the compressor died shortly after, but like the stock market. You only hear of someone's sucesses, not the losses.

Michael

Land of the Free
 

I'm certainly glad that we are in the land of the free....just think if we were jailed for our opinions and thoughts....what freedom we have, no matter what the topic.

FROM THE MANUFACTURER:
[QUOTE] Freeze-12 is one of the only legal (EPA allowed ) direct replacements for R-12. You'll appreciate how cold it gets. Click for commonly asked questions regarding Freeze 12. /QUOTE]

The manufacturer could not make this claim if it were not true, and no where does it say that it's a "snake oil" like most pessimistic people want to believe. Labeling a product or company for "snake oil" is not optimistic at all....so what were you thinking Larry? Safety first is the #1 rule, but being educated about what you're talking about should be somewhere before or after safety....don't you think?

You and samiam4 want to shoot down any alternative to coolants and are quick to critisize anyone for their opinions....now that makes me wonder why don't you respect someone for their thoughts and opinions instead of initially attacking them on some level?

It seems that new technology can be a threat to most people, even if they educate themselves about the technology and feel that they know all there is to know, but I suppose that's human nature in some humans, to critisize without respect to the technology or who invented it. :D

FROM THE MANUFACTURER:
Your reply Larry and samiam4 make me wonder if you even clicked on the links I provided. If you really want to cut this company and product(s) down, make sure you know what you're talking about. Besides, anyone can preach, even satan himself, but it doesn't mean that the message is going to be of any value. Each post I put on this board is designed to help someone. Sorry if I offended anyone, but I speak my truth, and stand up for myself and what I believe in....and I don't believe in pessimism.

By the way, I can purchase a can of Freeze 12 for $5.43........you were saying something about spending excess money....??

Have a great day, no matter how you decide to treat your automobile! :D LOL!!!!

Dude, don't get so defensive just because we think you're wrong! :)

Seriously, I think you would benefit from digging a bit deeper below the surface. I fished my handy-dandy all refrigerants chart out from the dusty basement of my computer. Freeze 12 is a blend of three components: 59% R-134a, 39% R-124, and 2% R-600 (isobutane). I'm not familiar with refrigerant-124, but since this stuff is mostly R-134a, guess what? It's gonna cool your car about like R-134a. BTW, the isobutane is for miscibility of the mineral oil leftover from the R-12 - helps move it through the system.

To me, Freeze-12 makes no sense from an economic standpoint, nevermind the other factors. It's basically R-134a quality cooling at double the price of R-134a. Check the website you referenced - a 30lb container of Freeze-12 is $199, they sell the same size R-134a for $96.

Industrial 12a is a mixture of propane and isobutane - basically grill gas. If you want to go this route, it's cheaper to just roll your own. There used to be an active community of hydrocarbon hackers over at aircondition.com, but they took away the alternative refrigerant board, probably for liability reasons. Lotsa folks are concerned about the fire/explosion risks of these refrigerants. I personally think the main risk is while handling them to charge the system, rather than while riding in a car using them. BTW, the EPA has ruled these types of R-12 substitutes not legal for automobiles. Apparently it's legal to sell the stuff, just not to use it.

I'm going back to work now,

- JimY

Re: Land of the Free
 

Freeze-12 is basically R-134a with another refrigerant to help it mix in with mineral oil. I'm still sticking with R-12 in my mom's drop-top.

87-300E,

That's exactly right, we are free to have our individual opinions. It's not as if I know nothing about Freeze 12 and other blends or flammables. As jcyuhns research shows, Freeze 12 is both a blend (more than one component) and a flammable (isobutane.)

I've seen all kinds of junk used in auto air conditioners and usually without the proper fittings as required by the EPA. Have you ever read or studied for the EPA 609 certification test?

If you had, then you would know that it is illegal to use any refrigerant without installing the correct fittings. The idea is for each individual refrigerant to be protected from being mixed with another. It also offers some amount of help to the poor guys who have expensive refrigerant recovery equipment that they don't want ruined or their recovered refrigerant contaminated.

If I were to recover even the smallest volume of one of these junk refrigerants into either one of my recovery tanks, the ENTIRE TANK must then be disposed of at great expense, plus I lose the refrigerant that was in there.

There are a lot of guys with expensive equipment just trying to make a living so they can put food on the table and afford shoes for the baby like everyone else. Along comes a system with this junk, they recover into their machine because it was not correctly marked with correct fittings and they just lost several hundred dollars.

If you insist on using this junk PLEASE do everyone a favor and MARK the system as required by law and use the CORRECT fitting adapters. The service industry will thank you for it.

BTW. I am certified in automotive refrigeration by the EPA and ASE. How about yourself?

Have a great day,

larry, how bad are sealers in a AC system? I tell friends to avoid using oils and AC chems from Kragen and such, just because there's a lot of stuff in them that has no business in auto HVAC.

Hello,
The rating plate on my 1984 380 SL ( picture of plate attached ) calls for one kilo or 2.2 pounds of R12 if I read it correctly. Could someone please confirm that.
It looks like the factory lists other refrigerants that can also be used or am I reading something into this since my German is non-existent?

Local suppliers here are about $40. a can on R12 if they have it.
It seems to be going on eBay at about $32. with freight.
I am lead to believe someday there will be no R12 and auto air conditioners just because of their nature seem to leak more than stationary units.

I just cannot put my heart into a R134a conversion considering the work involved and an uncertain outcome, especially if these cars have a weak system to begin with as some folks here elude to.

This brings me to the Freeze 12 that I see discussed here. The web site seems straight forward and offers the fittings. Does it even have to be recovered or can it just be vented since it contains no cfc's? It would seem like getting the proper weight in would be the critical thing as it requires 10% less than R12.

Is anyone out there having positive results with this Freeze 12 in their Mercedes?

This thing is a convertible that is driven with the top down primarily but still I do not want to drive around with an inoperative component.

Further posts to this thread will be eagerly awaited as decision time is near.

Best Wishes,
John

airedale,

As jcyuhns research showed, Freeze 12 contains 134, thus it is illegal to vent. It is also illegal in 18 states plus the District of Columbia.

As you say 1 KG is 2.2 pounds or 35 oz. A can of R12, unless it is a very old can, will contain 12 oz., 3 cans would be 36 oz. I would not recommend putting any in the system until you KNOW that it has no leaks.

I don't think I have to go through again the reasons for not using Freeze 12 or any other snake oil refrigerant. They are either flammable or a blend. There are downsides to both. R12 is the least expensive component in your a/c.

nthach,

Sealers are BAD NEWS!!!!!!!!!! They very, very, rarely work. Plus if ANY of these sealers are recovered into a recovery machine it will COMPLETELY wreck the machine. These machines are full of solenoid valves that the sealants will stick and necessitate replacement of all of them.

PLEASE, PLEASE don't mess with sealers. It's a waste of money, and once they don't work, your a/c system will very likely be wrecked, necessitating replacement of many, if not all components.

I am not one for government intervention, but I think such sealers should be illegal to sell.

Have a great day,

Airdale,


There seems to be a pretty good supply of R-12 still. When you say $40, is that what you are qouted from a local autoparts store or from a shop.
The systems I've rebuilt(mainly later W123's), I rebuild and replace many hoses, expansion valve and compressors(those R-4 grenades). A good flush and frigerant was $350-500 in parts + freon.

Larry, maybe it's been a while. Isn't it legal for an individual to vent R134a and not a shop? I know that was suppose to change at some point- but what year I haven't a clue.

Michael