Arthur,

I understand and agree with the logic - that it is the relay. But since this is a replacement relay - well, you know what I'm thinking (the odds would be against the replacment being bad).

Nonetheless - I'll test it with 12 volt battery.

I can't do the ohms test - as my meter is not working on this setting even though I changed the battery. I have to get a new meter - I'll try to remember to get one at the show tomorrow.

But I've a question - so that I don't ruin the relay: Positive to 86 and negative to 85? Right? Or do I have this backwards?

Jim

That is correct..


You mentioned that the relay is different than the original..

Does 85/86/30 and 87 have the exact same physical positions as the old relay???

Arthur,

I. The relays are exactly the same. I was able to procure the exact same part number - and the NEW relay is, in ALL respects - exactly the same as the OLD relay.

2. I applied 12 volts to the NEW relay - no click. Just like the old one - no click and since coverless - no visible closing of the coil contact.

So...all logic indicates the both relays - new and old - are defective. Right?

I will get a new meter tomorrow and do the ohms test. Can you tell me how to do this? I ask because I would assume there is 0 continuity across 85 & 86 - since the contact is open.

Jim
Jim

<<Can you tell me how to do this? I ask because I would assume there is 0 continuity across 85 & 86 - since the contact is open.>>


OK...the contacts have nothing to do with the coils being open or having continuity. There will be zero continuity on the coil[ 85/86] if the coil has an open CIRCUIT. The CONTACTS are the other part of the relay..the mechanical points section.

Just so we are on the same page...

Go back to post 13 again and load that relay diagram I posted .
Look at the bottom one.

You will notice that 85 and 86 are COIL .
30 and 87 are the load CONTACTS.

Notice that the LOAD contacts are OPEN in the diagram..that is b/c the diagram shows the relay with NO 12 V POWER to 85/86.

If one were to put 12 volts to 85 and 86, the contacts 30 and 87 would CLOSE.

SO, if we have power to 85 and 86 and the relay does not close, we have a bad coil or connection inside the relay [ it could also be binding realy , but that is doubtful]

I am fairly confident that you must understand this, but I want to be sure ..

Now , if you had an Ohm meter [ or any kind of continuity rig], you could put the ohm meter across 30/87 and everytime you put 12 v to the coil [85/86] , you would see the ohm meter read comtinuity from 30 to 87.
THAT would be relay CONFIRMATION.
And if you had an Ohm meter . we could also check the coils integrity from 85 to 86. [ there would be an OHM value to the coils windings]

It is a simple relay, with a COIL side and a LOAD side . We know your pump load side circuit is fine B/C you can get it to run by closing 30/87 manually..so that eliminates all that part of the Pump circuit.

..and the sensor side of the circuit is meeting Criteria b/c you have 12 v to the coil [ 85/86]for 90 secs of running from cold start....so that verifies that the N3/1 module is getting the required combination of values/data that meets the modules command mapping requirements for AIR circuit ACTIVATION.

That is all I can tell you..something is wrong right at the relay...or a poor connection in the relay feed circuits. I really need relay confirmation before going any futher.
I have your schematic up here and it shows K17 to be a standard 4 pin relay with 85/86 coil and 30/87 contacts set ..nothing special , just a plain switching relay.... I wish it had coil ohm value , but it doesn't. That is where the ohm meter wold be the correct tool.
Do you follow ?? If not, then what part can I clear up....

Arthur,

Thank you very much for your very clear explanation. I understand it perfectly.

(For instance, I recognize that the continuity test across 30 & 87 is simply an efficient alternative to opening the relay inorder to visualize contact closure (or lack thereof) while voltage is applied to 85 & 86.)

I believe it was Sherlock Holmes that said, to paraphrase: When all other possibilities have been disproved, and the only remaining possibility is improbable...it becomes the probable, nonetheless. (or something to this effect).

I see that everything points to the relay - even though it has been replaced.

Tomorrow I'll take the both relays (old and new) to work and test them.

Also...if in attempting to find a replacement relay, I think I see that I can use a common relay with a different post pattern and wire it in to test the system.

SO THANKS! I'll let you know the next test results.

Jim

P. S. I'm looking at another car. This guy has a '95 Lincoln Mark VIII for sale - get this: 6,440 original miles! He's got $13,000 price on it, but I'm thinking if he'll go down to $10,000...I might buy it. The car is impeccable.

<Also...if in attempting to find a replacement relay, I think I see that I can use a common relay with a different post pattern and wire it in to test the system.
>

RS has a 30A one I use for testing substitutions for $6.

Let me know what you find at work.. the main concern will be what you get for ohms readings across the coil terminals on both relays [old/new]. If you get nothing , they are bad..
I just want to make sure this is not a special ohm value relay that needs a resistance draw from N3/1 circuit to cut in..

Ya did good.
See ya.

Arthur,

It is now Sunday night. My apologies I was not able to write back yesterday - but it was a long day in the hot sun, and after work I stopped to buy a new meter with working ohms function - so I did not get home until very late.

Now...I have conducted both sets of test you asked me to do - and conducted them on both the OLD and the NEW (replacement) relay. (As you read this...please visualize/keep in mind...there are 5 pins on the relay, but while there are 6 female holes in the relay base (in the car), ONLY 4 have metal contacts in the hole.

Voltage/Continuity Test:

1. 12v to Relay Pins 86 and 85

2. Continuity: Relay Pin 30 to 87 = NO

3. Continuity: Relay Pin 30 to 87a = YES

Resistance Test:

1. Baselined Meter = with probes touching, meter adjusted to 0 ohms

2. Relay Pin 30 to 87 = Unlimited (no meter reading)

3. Relay Pin 30 to 87a = 0 ohms

****

Two things standout to me, I start with the minor one:

A. Minor: Shouldn't an operating coil circuit have some nominal resistance? Rather than 0? Maybe 50 to 120 ohms?

B. Major: In the relay base (in the car) - the female holes with metal contacts line-up with the following pins on the relay: 85, 86, 30, and.......87........NOT 87a.

THIS SEEMS INSANE to me! It as if the relay is designed to operate with pin 87a, yet the relay base is designed to operate with pin 87.

Yet...what I've called "old" relay is the same physical unit that has always been in the car!

****

Test results from the relay would lead someone to expect to find a metal contact in the female socket for 87a...but there is NONE! It is very easy to see the contacts in 85, 86, 30 and 87. Thinking maybe there was one in 87a, I shined a light down in it, and pushed a plastic probe down in it...but do not find anything.

Possibly there was one and it dislodged and dropped down? This doesn't sound logical to me.

****

I wonder if I jumper between 87 & 87a - AIR function?

****

Well, quite odd test results on the relay!

Jim

Arthur,

After posting my earlier post - I thought through the process again. I realized my idea of jumpering between 87 and 87a would only work if continuity between 30 and 87a existed ONLY if there was voltage to the coil.

So I checked continuity between 30 and 87a - there is continuity without coil voltage.

So....my idea would not work, as it would result in AIR operating all the time. Or so I think.

AND...a major oops on my part. I should have tested ohms on 85 and 86, right?

I just did this - with same results on both relays. The meter needle moves a little bit upon first contacting the probes to 85 and 86, but then settles to "unlimited". Which would seem to indicate the coil on the relay is bad.

Jim
So...focusing on the results of testing 30 & 87 - it would seem that both relays are not
Jim

OK

Pay attention here...
If you go look at those two relay diagrams I posted , you will see one is a 5 pin and one is a 4 pin.
You will notice that these relay diagrams are simply the INSIDE circuits of the relay WHEN they are NOT POWERED. [ just make believe they ain't even plugged into anything]
Pay special attention to that line at the end of pin 30. That represents the contact arm/lever. The arrows are the points/contacts. On the 4 pin relay, it is OPEN, but It moves to the arrow line 87 when the coil is energized, making contact and thus, a complete circuit.
Same deal with the 5 pin. That arm is closed to 87a b/c NO 12 V. POWER is at the coil, but once coil is powered , that lever/line will OPEN 87a and move to 87, closing the 87/30 circuit [just like the 4 pin does ] ... SAME DEAL.
Also notice that the 4 and 5 pin layouts are INDENTICAL, except the 5 pin has one extra set of contacts [87A]. So, the 5 pin has two contacts..one is Normally ON and the other is Normally OFF. When the coil is energized , the OFF one [ 87] goes ON , and the ON one [87A] goes OFF. They get SWITCHED ..Simple..Just like any old manual switch does..

http://members.aol.com/ajdalton7/relay.jpg

so, lets look at that 5 pin real close ..notice that 30 and 87A are connected when the relay is at REST???? Why , you ask.... well , b/c a 5 pin relay is used for two different circuits to CONTROL two different functions..ONE- when the relay has NO POWER to the coil [ 85/86] and TWO, when ther coil DOES HAVE power..
SO, it is a DOUBLE SWiTCH ..get it?? When it is off , it is driving one device, and when it is ON, it is then driving a DIFFERENT device..it's a "dual switching relay." An example would be an alarm circuit that would have an Indicator light to tell you that the circuit was off..In that case they would use the 87a for the indicator light. So, if 85/86 lost power to , lets say a freezer , a WARNING light would come ON to let you know there was a circuit problem...and you freezer was not working....DUH.

Now , lets go look at the 4 pin relay ..this relay has 30 and 87 [ there is NO 87 "A" ].... so , this relay only does ONE THING..it turns ON 30/87 when the coil gets 12v..that is ALL it can do..nothing else. IT IS A SINGLE SWITCH.....ON or OFF....when it gets 12v to 85/86, they close the switch and THAT closing puts your AIR PUMP CLUTCH ON/ACTIVATED..
That's it ...no more , no less..just like when you closed those contacts manually. It's Magical....:)
Now , you ask, why have a 4 pin and a five pin...simply production cost...when they want to use the 5 pin, they have a connector for 87a to plug into...that is why you don't have a connector..cuz you only need the 4 pin relay..but a 5 works cuz they DON'T USE the 5th pin in your instance...so, forget about pin 5 ..it is just a production relay that has many, many other/different applications. Your circuit uses 85/86 coil and 30/87 switch...the 87a is in the relay for other applications, but it is not being used for the AIR application b/c it is not needed ....get it ???

Back to your relays ..If you have no ohms readings/continuity at 85/86 , you have an OPEN COIL..and with an open coil . you can have 12v to 85/86 until the Cows Come Home and the relay will just sit there and do NOTHING.
Meaning contacts 30 and 87 will never turn ON. [ Close]

Which is why I had you put 12v to the coils long ago.........
12v to coil on that 5 pin relay will result in CLOSING 30/87 and OPENING 30/87A...simple as that and you can check that with your new ohm meter in a flash.................................................
so,.. don't worry about 87a , b/c it is not applicable to your circuit. It will open and close opposite what 87 does, but it is not hooked to anything so no one will know....:)..you have a 5 pin replacement relay in place of the original 4 pin, but you are only using 4 pins , so you really only still only have a 4 pin relay circuit. The 5th one is DEAD b/c it is not being used..but if an application needed that 5th pin , they could use that very same relay...it's manufacturer cost control and universal application..it saves them from making TWO different relays.
That understanding should answer ALL your questions..if not, fire away.
I have made it as simple as it actually is..it is a basic relay.
If you print out that relay schematic , then you can glance at it as you read each section I posted ..makes it real easy to follow that way.
This is Basic Electricity 101.....
I also found a Super Simplistic working pictoral Site @ Google for ya..just click anywhere on the second picture and you will see an animation on how a 4 pin relay works in living color when the coil is powered. Kinda Kids Stuff, but I thought it would be cool for anyone following this thread and not knowledgable about relays at all.... it reminds me when we were kids and were shown how a door bell worked by the Science Teacher as an " Electrical Project Experiment" ...Whoa !!!! ........:)
That was WAAAAAAAY Back.....[before the War].

http://www.kampenwagen.co.uk/whats%20a%20realy.htm

Arthur,

Thanks again for your efforts, and in this case, your excellent explanation. I do actually understand it all. In fact, I had "sort of" realized the 87a wasn't effective in the application at hand, and was there only for manufacturing cost purposes (using the same relay for other purposes in other models)....but I pushed my logic aside in the fever of thinking I'd found a solution.

Anyway...today I ordered another replacement relay. While doing so I started thinking about the probabilities of the first relay going bad, and the second (replacement) relay being dead-on-arrival.

As you can guess, my thoughts are the probabilities are low. So...since the replacement does not work - I got to thinking that possibly it was "good" when I first received it, but it suffered the same fate as the original after installation.

The only thing I could think of was the fact that when voltage to the coil drops from 12 - it drops to 5 instead of 0.

So I did some reading - and learned that some relays and/or their coils can be damaged when presented with low voltage conditions for extended periods of time.

I don't know if this is the case for the relay in question, but I suppose it could be so.

So...I was wondering...your thoughts? Do you think the coil voltage should drop to 0 after the AIR operation? Or, is there some need for the 5 volt condition to be maintained that I'm not seeing?

As I mentioned, I ordered another relay and it will be here in a few days. Ordered from fastlane - but don't know if they're shipping from Georgia or drop-shipping from some warehouse in California.

I will definitely let you know when it arrives. I think I should test it before installing (using the tests you've provided me with). Do you think this is a good idea? Because if it works pre-installation - but post installation AIR doesn't function and the relay tests defective - well then I'll have narrowed something down, right?

Anyway, I really do sincerely appreciate your sticking with me on this and all for your time. I think without someone to have talked to about this - I might have just said screw it and sold the car. Not sure about that, but I was, as you probabl could tell, getting pretty frustrated.

So, thanks again! And I hope you had a good day.

Jim

<So I did some reading - and learned that some relays and/or their coils can be damaged when presented with low voltage conditions for extended periods of time.
>


I do not think so, b/c some relays are on for hours at a time..but , that 5 V drop thing does have me more concerned with the driver circuit in the ECU..
When you get the new relay, do the ohms test on the coil and post that before install..I would like to know the exact ohms of that coil, as the schematic does not give that spec. Coil burn out on a relay would be caused by an over-voltage condition, not voltage less than the coils
rated spec... I had asked and you said it was labeled 12v... so that should be correct.
Get the new one and we will go from there..

Arthur,

Hello again. Well...much to report, and tentatively positive results/news. (But it is still early).

I have not yet received delivery of the 2nd replacement MB relay.

Nonetheless, I picked up a 12v generic relay from Radio Shack - 4 pole, normally open. They did not have a 30 amp relay in stock, so I got the 40 amp version. Please let me know if you think I should not use this further (further than I have indicated I've already used it below).

I tested the relay before installing...and got the results I now know I should have got with the MB relays IF they were functioning. 12v to the coil poles - on comes the continuity light for the load circuit.

I also tested the coil ohms = 0.

I never got these results with either of the 2 MB relays (the original and the 1st relacement)...so it was educational to actually see the results first-hand.

Knowing the relay functioned, I decided to wire it into the relay box. I did so...and with cold car conditions = AIR operated upon ignition (by this I mean the clutch engaged...pumped sucked air).

I monitored clutch - it dis-engaged in what appeared to be the appropriate time range (approximately 90-120 seconds). Similar to the time period that 12v was at coil poles before dropping to 5 volts (the test results of a few days ago).

I cycled ignition on and off 3 times - the process that would normally produce CEL. It did not come back. A few more cycles just to be sure - no CEL.

The next step will be to see if the relay is still functioning after having experienced 5v rather than 0v upon AIR shut-down. I'll have to wait for the conditions for AIR critieria (cold car) inorder to check this.

*****

I took the car for a test drive. You'll remember I mentioned briefly I was previously experiencing what seemed to be limp home mode. Upon the test drive I initially experienced similar symptoms - almost no pedal response under load. But cycling the ignition allowed the car to return to normal.

Each time I went through this process (about 4 times) - the symptoms seemed to be less severe. Eventually they went away and I was able to drive the car almost like nothing was wrong.

I remember reading their is a little bit of learning curve for the fuel/air ratio. It would seem logical that with AIR not functioning for the period of time BEFORE I started my diagnostic and repair work....the ration may have gotten pretty far off. I guess what I'm really saying it I think/suppose the gradual improvement tonight during the test drive MAY have been this learning curve??? What do you think? Am I really far off with my belief/understanding here?

Anyway, I allowed the car to sit for 30 minutes - the conducted another test drive. The car ran very well, with none of the symptoms.

AFTER the last test drive CEL came on again - but the only code I read was knock sensors. This didn't overly surprise me, as the poor symptoms at start of test drive were quite, indeed VERY, severe. (the engine actually shut off twice).

I cleared the code and will monitor.

So...tomorrow morning I'll check AIR upon start. Criteria will be right - and hopefully I'll see the clutch engage upon start up.

I will let you know.

****
I hope you had a good day!

Jim

Hello Arthur,

Hope you're doing well.

OK...to report:

This morning I checked AIR: It operated correctly (came on upon starting car - went off after 90/120 seconds). Thus, the relay is not burn out during test drive yesterday evening.

This evening I checked AIR again: Once again, normal operation.

Furthermore, air dtc's (Pin 4, Code 11...and Pin 19, Code 4) have NOT returned.

So, it would appear that my secondary air injection problems are solved with the Radio Shack relay. I continue to await delivery of the MB relay.

***

However, test drive attempts this evening were similar in results to test drive attempts yesterday evening. Meaning:

Symptoms:

1. After AIR cease - meaning after car has idled correctly for at least 2 minutes - test drive attempt commenced.

2. Idle is ok (5,000 rpm - regular pattern - no apparent misfires)

3. But upon putting some load on car (moving up hill, from stationary position, for example) - car loses power.

4. Once this happens, even in park/neutral, reving the engine causes it to just about shut down.

5. After cycling ignition - car then was operable - meaning I could do test drive. While the car functioned ok - the major symptoms described above were gone - there was some remaining sluggishness in pedal acceleration.

6. I pulled codes: Pin 17, Code 5 (knock sensors 1 and/or 2 faulty)
Pin 19, Code 3 (lambda control faulty)
Pin 19, Code 25 (knock sensors faulty)

7. All codes clear.

For your information, I had these same codes 4 weeks ago when I also had the two AIR codes. Over the first two weeks I concentrated on correcting the lambda code by:
a. Replacing O2 sensor
b. Replacign both distributor caps & rotors
c. Replacing brake stop light switch
d. Replacing neutral safety switch
e. Replacing spark plugs
f. Replacing fuel filter
g. Replacing air temperature switch (the one on cold air intake scoop housing)
h. Cleaning hot wire diode in mass air sensor
i. Rebuilding one harness (from oil temp sensor, oil pressure sensor & a transmission sensor - up to module control box)

(I know - some of these probably sound like dumb things to to in order to fix lambda code.)

But what I'm primarily trying to convey is I did this for the first 2 weeks, and for the last 2 weeks with you have focused on the AIR injection codes.

So...with a tentative "solved" for the air injection, I guess I'm now turning my attention to the symptoms I've described, and the codes being generated.

Thus, I have a question about the knock sensor codes: Does generation of these codes mean knocking occurred? Or, do they indeed mean the knock sensor system (sensor and/or wires and/or ECU) is faulty?

Well, I guess that is it.

Jim

<OK...to report:

This morning I checked AIR: It operated correctly (came on upon starting car - went off after 90/120 seconds). Thus, the relay is not burn out during test drive yesterday evening.

This evening I checked AIR again: Once again, normal operation.

Furthermore, air dtc's (Pin 4, Code 11...and Pin 19, Code 4) have NOT returned.

So, it would appear that my secondary air injection problems are solved with the Radio Shack relay. I continue to await delivery of the MB relay.

>

Very good...if you go way back to post 7 , you will see we did not have to go thru 42 Post to get to the diagnosis.

You may want to check this thread #2 out for further postings..

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=127343

Arthur,

I just wanted to tell you "thank you" for all of the advice and assistance you provided me. And more importantly, for allowing me to talk through the problem with someone.

I learned alot from you...so thanks!

I should be ok now on my own.

I hope you had a great day!

Jim