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#46
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Mr. Cane,
Thank you very much for your research and insightful, informative post. I now feel much better about the JWIS chain that I received to use on my 300E. Southern Son, Thank you for starting this thread that has turned out to be so insightful and valuable. I apologize here in front of God and everybody for any unclear post that I may have offered. I will do my best to respond henceforth with only information of a technical nature and not ask any questions of you that may be construed as some sort of accusation. Have a great day, |
#47
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I have been rather occupied lately with world happenings and my German partner trapped in Canada.
I would add a couple comments based upon a quick reading of the last four pages. Maybe the most important would be to try and put some perspective to this discussion. One post way back worried about explaining these problems to his wife. I have never had a car that experienced a broken timing chain. I have been involved with fixing hundreds. I will never have a car that experiences a broken timing chain. I have never seen a timing chain break that didn't fit into one of two distinct conditions. The first condition is the fragile POS chain rails in the V8 heads (all 116/117 versions except the early models with aluminum rails). The second is chain systems running loose. Almost all diesels with broken chains were rattling for months due to tentioner failure or wear or vacuum pumps that were doing similar. These problems all happen to vehicles long after I will ever own one (Its unlikely I will ever own a car with over a 100k on it - my 84 928 which I have owned since 1987 has 91k on it), so I won't ever have that experience. I say this for perspective. Simple maintenance can keep these very maintenance free systems from significant risk.
__________________
Steve Brotherton Continental Imports Gainesville FL Bosch Master, ASE Master, L1 33 years MB technician |
#48
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From what I can tell in my Mercedes engine service manual, there is an oil pressure relief valve. I will have to remove the sump, use special tool 001 589 60 21 00, whatever that is.
It appears the broken chain is a Mercedes part. No more will be known about the cause until I finish getting the head off, and look in the pan. Over the years, I've purchased 4 manuals for this car: electrical, HVAC, chassis, and engine. The engine manual has almost nothing on the crank and pistons. Is there yet another manual I am supposed to buy? Group 3 in this manual only has: 03-310 Checking, renewing and tightening conrad bolts. 03-324 Renewing front crankshaft radial seal. 03-327 Renewing rear crankshaft radial seal. 03-324 Removing, installing belt pully, flywheel damper and hub. 03-410 Removing, installing flywheel or driven plate. 03-420 Machining flywheel. Kind of inadequate for the job I have of rebuilding the bottom end.
__________________
Michael LaFleur '05 E320 CDI - 86,000 miles '86 300SDL - 360,000 miles '85 300SD - 150,000 miles (sold) '89 190D - 120,000 miles (sold) '85 300SD - 317,000 miles (sold) '98 ML320 - 270,000 miles (sold) '75 300D - 170,000 miles (sold) '83 Harley Davidson FLTC (Broken again) :-( '61 Plymouth Valiant - 60k mikes 2004 Papillon (Oliver) 2005 Tzitzu (Griffon) 2009 Welsh Corgi (Buba) |
#49
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Michael, I have found the bottom ends to be built like a tank. Therefore, you may consider leaving the crank and pistons alone and proceeding with replacing the oil pump. If it turns out to be the bottom end after all is put back together, then you will probably be better off to just get a rebuilt long block or salvage from junk yard. Tough call but as I said I doubt the bottom end is suspect.
Note: upon replacing the oil pump in my 380 I had the misfortune of stripping the middle bolt female threads in the housing. This happened before I had even torqued to 7 #'s. I used the old housing to guide the drill bit for the heli-coil, sprayed my zinc chromate onto the heli-coil, cinched it up into the tapped hole, torqued the bolt (into which I had drilled a couple of holes in the heads for safety wire) and saftied the head to an extension on the housing. This was really simple and not worth all the worry I experienced. |
#50
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Michael:
Hard to believe the MB engine manual does not contain detailed info about the crankshaft and related components/assemblies. A call to MercedesParts may yield info about their service manual or CD-ROM that will cover in more detail the info you need. If they can't help then call Performance Products and inquire about the info their CD-ROM manual has for your engine (800-243-1220, you may want to order their parts catalog covering your MB because their web site does not list all the parts they stock). Also, Haynes may make a manual containing the info - the one I have for my 300D is very good and goes well with my MB manuals. I recall buying my Haynes manual at Auto Zone, a phone call or two should determine which parts co. has the Haynes manual. Tom
__________________
America: Land of the Free! 1977 300D: 300,000+ miles American Honda: Factory Trained Technician & Honor Grad. Formerly: Shop Foreman; Technical Advisor to Am. Honda; Supervisor of Maintenance largest tree care co. in US for offices in Tex. |
#51
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A friend of mine broke the chain in a 190E from 84.
This car was not properly serviced. I kept telling him to fill oil because he this car was famous for large oil consumtion. One day he told me to listen to some strange sounds coming from the car when he reved. I told him that the camshaft was making noise and it had to be serviced my a mechanic ,he ignored it reulted in a brake down within a week. He the bought a Mazda 323F <- but this car sounds awful all the time. Excuse me all Mazda fans out there. Pelle |
#52
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I agree that the bottom of the M103 engine is well built. However, that has little to do with what could be WRONG with the engine. I understand that Michael is not the original owner of the car. If the oil was not changed very often, or if it was allowed to get low, any engine can cause premature wear under these conditions.
The last thing that should be done is to start replacing parts without investigation. The only way to properly investigate is to start doing exploratory surgery as Michael is now doing. Good luck and please keep us informed as your investigation continues. |
#53
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Quote:
your funny........ |
#54
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Okay, I'll try a different choice of words. What I mean by what is WRONG with the engine is which parts need machining or replacing in the engine. How's that?
Again I AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!! These are well built engines. However, there has never been ANY engine that does not have some sort of failure, something wears out or suffers from some sort of problem such as what happens if it runs low of oil. How well it is built has nothing to do with these type of failures. Now how does this make me funny? I am merely pointing out what anyone who has ever torn an engine apart will understand. You take it apart, measure, examine, investigate and correct. Now what about THIS is funny? I will get a head start on offering my apologies to Southern Son, since I know he will SOMEHOW be offended by these statements. I've apologized to him after my comments before, so maybe some apology ahead of time will work better. So what did I say to offend you this time? Have a great day, |
#55
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Bless your heart, Larry, I am sure it will get better.
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#56
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Now now guys. I appreciate everybodies help, especially Larry for his many posts and guidance, Southern_Son for starting the thread, BlackMercedes and psfred for adding their input.
The head is off and all the exhaust valves have hit their respective piston. All pistons have slight dents in them and otherwise look fine. No intake valve shows indication of hitting anything. This engine is apparently has an interference head, but not by much. The cam rotates fine. Seizing was not the cause of the chain break. The cam looks fine (to the untrained eye). The contacting surface of the head to the cam (I don't know what to call it. There is no journal or bearing) looks ok. There are small dark specks in the dull metal. I don't know what to make of them.
__________________
Michael LaFleur '05 E320 CDI - 86,000 miles '86 300SDL - 360,000 miles '85 300SD - 150,000 miles (sold) '89 190D - 120,000 miles (sold) '85 300SD - 317,000 miles (sold) '98 ML320 - 270,000 miles (sold) '75 300D - 170,000 miles (sold) '83 Harley Davidson FLTC (Broken again) :-( '61 Plymouth Valiant - 60k mikes 2004 Papillon (Oliver) 2005 Tzitzu (Griffon) 2009 Welsh Corgi (Buba) |
#57
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Michael, I am surprised that all pistons were hit unless, of course, the chain jumped a few teeth and after a few hits, let go. I suppose the question for ones experienced in this would be 'how much stress can the top of the piston take before needing replacing?'. Do you have any wear ridge evident at the top of the cylinder from the rings? I would bet the block and cylinder wear are still within limits.
I wish you luck in your parts salvage. |
#58
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Wow, it looks like my idea to apologize ahead of time works! That's great!
Michael, I expect that the pistons are not hurt by the valve contact. That is not to say that they are not in need of replacement due to wear. Micing the cylinders will tell that story. If you can't catch a ridge with your fingernail, I expect cylinders, pistons and rings are probably okay. Have you been able to examine ALL of the timing chain associated components such as the guide rails and such? You will be able to get the head back in shape relatively easily. It obviously will take 6 exhaust valves and you should have them replace the valve guides at the same time. Be careful not to drop any of the tiny "cups" that fit between the rockers and valve stems. Good luck with your further exploratory surgery. Have a great day, |
#59
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Thanks guys. I was going to check for a ridge line this morning before I left for work, but was rushed by my daughter to get her to basketball practice and forgot. I assume you mean a ridge after any deposits are removed.
I too was suprised to see that ALL the exhaust valves were hit. While removing the rocker bolts, I found the threads still wound around the bottom of one of the bolts. I think it was the exhaust side of number 3 or 4. I guess a helicoil is the answer here. Is the dull wear normal on the contact surfaces on the head? There are dark specks in the surface material, but no pits or scratches.
__________________
Michael LaFleur '05 E320 CDI - 86,000 miles '86 300SDL - 360,000 miles '85 300SD - 150,000 miles (sold) '89 190D - 120,000 miles (sold) '85 300SD - 317,000 miles (sold) '98 ML320 - 270,000 miles (sold) '75 300D - 170,000 miles (sold) '83 Harley Davidson FLTC (Broken again) :-( '61 Plymouth Valiant - 60k mikes 2004 Papillon (Oliver) 2005 Tzitzu (Griffon) 2009 Welsh Corgi (Buba) |
#60
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Michael,
Glad to hear about your priorities, sounds like they're right on target. Your daughter comes first. First off, when removing or installing the cam and it's stands and rockers, remove or tighten the bolts evenly so as to not break the camshaft. You should be able to remove enough of the deposits with nothing more than your fingernail. If your fingernail does not remove enough so that you don't catch a METAL ridge with your fingernail, then you have a ridge. Removing the "deposits" with a ridge reamer will also remove metal, making the ridge left meaningless for determining wear. I still don't totally understand your questions/remarks regarding the specks on the head surface. But, given the type of failure you are analyzing, this very well may be a clue. Good luck, |
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