No 4Matic - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

lkchris · #16 12-12-2008, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by babymog

4matics aren't that hard to buy that work properly, I wouldn't spend any decent amount of money for one that has expensive problems.

To add to this, those that will have expensive problems will be those in W124s. This system isn't perfected until the W210.

babymog · #17 12-12-2008, 05:48 PM

The 210 is a different system than the 124.
The 124 was designed and built by Steyr-Puch, was electro-hydraulic actuated clutches and gears, the 210 was viscous-locked differentials with traction control.

Although the Steyr-Puch system is technically very cool, it was more complex than it needed to be, IIRC it was a $23,000 option on my '91, and really caused me a lot of white-knuckle moments during electro-hydraulic indecision (which happens regularly by design). Still a really cool system from an Engineer's view. The 210 4matic was a less expensive car in '97(?) when introduced, than my '91.

whipplem104 · #18 12-12-2008, 06:56 PM

I want to be clear about this. I have replaced probably 30-40 transfer cases for customers when I was a dealer technician in Colorado. All of them leaked internally. I drove one myself for 150,000 miles without replacing the case and have had several customers drive more miles on theirs after they were already leaking internally. I have only seen some of the early cases leak so badly that it would not work with some maintenance as I described. There is some risk if driven for a long time with no fluid that the pump is damaged.
I am not saying that other things do not go wrong with this system, but 9 out of 10 or better this is probably it. As they are getting older I have seen the hydraulic damper on the valve block go out causing some problems, but so far this is pretty rare and on 200,000 miles plus cars. Also sometimes the pressure switch in the valve block and stop lamp switch and on one car only have I seen a bad control unit. The t-case is expensive, somewhere around 2500 dollars plus install.
Switching the service valve deactivates the system preventing wear and tear.
The reason the case leaks is that from every stop the clutch activates regardless of traction. At 7-9 km/h it releases if there are no traction issues.
This is because the computer can not read the wheel speed sensors until a higher speed.
If the system is off non of this occurs and the car is effectively two wheel drive.
The 210 has open differentials using the brakes to move power from a slipping wheel to the wheel with traction. With ESP this is a really nice system. It's only limitations are in extreme conditions where a true 4-wheel drive with locked up rear differential and some wheel slip would get you out..
The 210 t-case is prone to leaks also, but can be resealed as they are just external radial seal leaks the same as a differential.

RogerP · #19 12-12-2008, 07:42 PM

One last question then. I am now aware that the TC will need to be swapped out to get the 4Matic working again. Nothing else will work as far as I can see from reading the posts above. So, how difficult is this to achieve? Can it be done with the transmission in place? Any difficulties? Any special tools required? After swapping it is then the case that I wold have to hope none of the electrics are still at fault. The car is cheap but if the swap out is to difficult then it will not be worth the effort. There appears to be plenty of TC's in the UK from scrapped vehicles though of course the question then arises whether they work or not.

I am assuming that it is not the lack of fluid caused by the leak that is the problem but the innability to achieve and maintain the correct pressure to operate the clutch mechanism.

Thanks for all the help it has been more than useful in understanding this.

whipplem104 · #20 12-12-2008, 08:20 PM

It is fairly straight forward to repl. Remove the flex disc and hydraulic lines and then remove the bolts and slide off. It is easier with the exhaust out but not necessary. There is a cross-member behind the case that should be removed to gain room.

brooktre · #21 12-14-2008, 08:46 AM

Michael,
Questions about changing over to hydraulic fluid:
1) Do you use Mobil 1 synthetic?
2) Did you just start adding ATF to the hydraulic reservoir or did you flush out system?

I'm thinking of converting. My 91 300E 4matic has about 203k miles. Original transfer case. It started to leak enough around 150 - 175k that I began to use the disable switch in summers. I actually don't enable unless the snow starts to fly. Still works great with the Nokians!

Todd

michael cole · #22 12-15-2008, 10:27 AM

sorry for the delayed answer.use regular ATF to flush the system initially by adding to the reservoir.then remove with a turkey baster and flush again.put the good synthetic stuff in after flushing 2 times.its cheaper that way

John_B · #23 12-22-2008, 10:39 AM

I have a working t/c out of a 91 4matic with 78,000miles also other misc. parts, ecu, pump and some hydraulic lines. I have 2 4matic, 91 & 92 and they are awsome in the winter and are all original. Let me know if anyone is interested.

silversleeves · #24 03-05-2009, 06:35 PM

Hi John,
I might be interested in your Tranfer case. Could you PM me with the details.
Regards,
Jamie

silversleeves · #25 03-26-2009, 06:14 PM

I am interested in your transfer case...

EuroRash · #26 10-07-2012, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by farmbenz

I'm not too sure when US got various models but I think the US1989 model would be the first series.
Essentially the 2WD conversion is simple. I used a second hand 300E transmission because mine was badly rebuilt and wrecked but you could use the original with the rear case left on (this is also the front part of the transfer box case). The 4matic gearbox crossmember is used with the 2WD mount. Hydraulics can be reliably plugged to be leak free but it is a bit of a pain to bleed them. Theoretically the rear diff will still lock as it should but I have not tested this nor needed it yet.

I want the 4WD too but at $3500AUD for the parts to repair the 4matic plus my time, it is a difficult problem.
Take note that there have been no replies for the request for someone who really understands and has experience repairing 4matics.
Unless you can fund a dealer doing the work I would go for a later model 4matic (Im sorry but I don't know when they got better).
Regards,
Farmbenz

I know... old thread

I had a question about the 2wd conversion on the tranny.

Although my 4M TC works it has that annoying hydraulic leak
and paying $20 a quart to refill is not in my best interest

my tranny works fine
my question is

Will a 2wd tranny extension housing or tail case will bolt right on
and using the driveline (which I assume is longer) will suffice?

Which lines do I cap off and where, since my SLS still works fine?

Eventually I will drop the front dif and mount a 2wd oil pan
and also mount 2wd front knuckles/brakes
or just remove the front axles but leave the axle end piece
so that the wheel will remain in the hub.

400Eric · #27 05-11-2016, 08:28 PM

Yes, this is indeed an old thread, and it is in fact even older now, but it just doesn't make any sense to start a new thread just to rehash the valuable info that is already here. Would much rather pick up where this thread left off.

Also, yes, I've been gone a long time and I apologize for that. It is no way to treat one's friends on an online community, to just up and disappear like that, which I have done twice now, but I can't even begin to cover the hows and whys I am just so overwhelmingly busy and have had to let "car stuff" take a back seat to the other bunkness in my life.

Onward. I suspect that my newly acquired 92 4matic is suffering from the aforementioned "hydraulic fluid leaking into the transfer case" malady. My research shows that the transfer case fluid is in fact already Dextron III so using D3 in the fluid reservoir obviously isn't going to hurt the transfer case. My question then is what about the rest of the hydraulic system? Will D3 potentially hurt anything else?

Thanks in advance to all who help me with this!

Regards,
Eric

400Eric · #28 05-11-2016, 09:49 PM

Also, regarding this talk of the "later versions" having a "steel sleeve" in their transfer case, is my January '92 build date 4matic "later" enough to have the steel sleeve equipped transfer case?

duxthe1 · #29 05-12-2016, 12:14 AM

Congrats on the 4-M!

I only use the correct hydraulic fluid in mine.

I've recently procured parts to attempt to engineer a scavenge system to pump the excess fluid out of the case and back into the reservoir. Many projects on the burner now so I may not get around to it until fall comes and threat of snow forces my hand. I'll post progress when I actually make any.

400Eric · #30 05-12-2016, 12:47 AM

Thanks for the response!

You know way more about these 4matics than I do but I have to ask, if you only use the proper fluid and it is constantly leaking into the transfer case, isn't it replacing the transfer case's proper fluid (DexronIII) and isn't that a potential threat to the transfer case's well being?