I use this chart. Scroll down.
http://www.duracool.com/Duracool/faqs.html
Hydrocarbon refrigerant in a R134 system is fantastic. Even colder than the old R12 systems when they were new. You haven't lived life until you see frost shooting out the vents on a 103f day in Seattle.

I can't wait for the day when R134 is just as illegal as R12 when they discover its bad for the penguins or the monkeys or whatever.

134a will go away eventually, of that you can be sure. The GWP of 1500 is pretty severe (1lb of 134a has the same GWP as 3/4 ton of CO2).

When it becomes hard to source, and if the laws don't change in the meanwhile, I will probably convert to HC refrigerants also. But right now, 134a works and at $3/lb, it's hard to beat the price with any HC refrigerant.

But a handful of states have specifically banned HCs for MVACs. Be sure that you know your local laws. Perhaps pressure can be put on them to reverse these bans when the time comes.

Animal testing has indicated that with repeated exposure:
Benign testicular tumors may develop


From the Duracool website. This is from exposure to R134a (no amounts/length of exposure mentioned). Just an observation. I have no opinion of the use of any refrigerant. It just struck me as odd. I don't know about you guys but anything growing on my "boys" is definitely not considered "benign".

So, I guess this means that if you snort R134a you can get bigger balls. Maybe some of the politicians should try it. Oh... I forgot, not all of those slimy folks have them to start with.

That's an old but good myth. But is it true? I've only see it referenced where people are trying to sell me HC's that cost three times as much.

I don't think you'd call that a "myth". If it has testicles shouldn't it be called a "mythster"?

Yeah, yeah, I know, "Bad Mike, back into the garage and don't come out until you behave in public".

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

ROTFLMAO!

Glad I saw this thread after recharging with R134, otherwise I'd probably be hunting for the Duracool.

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2008 E350 4matic / Black/Anthracite

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Gone but not Forgotten:
2001 E430 4matic, 206,xxx miles, Black/Charcoal
1995 E320, 252,xxx miles, Black/Grey
1989 260E, 223,00 miles, Black/Black

My 89 300 se had been converted to r134a before I bought it and it worked well until a trip to St.Louis during one of their famous heat waves, then it could barely cool the interior.

I was planning to switch to evirosafe, which I've used in the past and have been very pleased with; however, I read a number of references, including some on the forum, saying good old hardward store propane made a great refrigerant.

I just had to try it. I made an adapter out of two old propane torches, an old yellow charging hose and a clamp. I looked up the amount of r12 my car originally had, 1300 grams, and from reading various references, decided a correct charge of propane would about 30% or 390 grams. I picked up a small bottle of propane fuel, (on sale at my local Ace, for $2.99), and it turned out to contain 400 grams of propane, which is just a tad over 30%. I pulled a vacuum, then charged in the entire 400 grams.

We haven't had any temps hotter than about 88 since I did it, a month or so, but it does work very well, keeping me nice and cool, and a recharge can be had at any hardward store in America for less than 5 bucks.

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2000 Mercedes S500
1990 Mercedes 560SEL
1970 Triumph Spitfire

I am planning to convert my vehicle, a Lexus LS400 to Propane as well. I am posting here because this seems to be a civilized discussion. I had some rude responses in a Lexusforum just for sharing my thoughts....
People were wishing me a firey death and an explosion.

So, the idea to use straight hardware store propane is cool, i love to experiment!

I already ordered 5kg each of R290 and R600a, to go for a blend of 50/50 in order to keep pressures down. I would have not ordered the gases if i had read this thread beforehand....

Ok, another thing i wanted to let you guys know is that you can mix R134a into your R12 system, here is my story:

I am living in China at the moment, when i first arrived i was intensively looking for a used SL500 or simmilar, i wanted a save and powerfull ride, traffic is terrible here.
I failed finding a reasonable Benz, the thing i came across is that 1990 Lexus LS400, what can i say i love this car.... i never drove a Jap before.

I bought it one year ago, last year the AC delivered ice cold air at max summer temperatures and humidity.
It gets hot and 100% humit here, crazy....

So this year i had to replace the compressor discharge hose and refilled the system with R12.
So far so good, the only thing i noticed was that the aircon did not blow as cold as before.
Low side and high side pressures were all within specs, strange.

Then i remembered that the previous owner told me his shop topped off the system with 134a..... back then i thought: what the hack is he talking about.

Out of frustration i started to do some research and ohoooooo, found this Article:

Soooo, i recovered about one can of R12, dropped in one can of R134a and guess what, the system is back to live.
ICCCCCCE cold.

The compressor is still fine, even though the system was running with that mixture for years and there was absolutely no residue in the hoses and pipes.

I tought this might be interesting for anybody having a R12 system with low refrigerant level.
The only problem i see is that the R134a might cause corrosion, i read somewhere that this might be an issue.
But again, on my LS it did not cause any problem so far.

You cannot top of your 134a system with R12, the PAG oil would deteriorate in contact with R12!

I have to replace some O-rings soon and will then switch to the Propane mix.

very comprehensive information about hydrocarbon (propane) refrigerants can be found here: http://www.hychill.com.au/
Check out their 56 page pdf fact sheet: http://www.hychill.com.au/tech/en_man.htm

in australia a huge amount of vehicles, especially taxis, are converted to propane refrigerants because r134a simply does not coooooooooool.

Mixing 134a with R12 will work as long as there is enough R12 to carry the oil, but it is illegal in the US. Probably a bunch of other places too.

here some interesting health facts regarding R134a, see also attached document. I had to upload the document as a text file.
the .pdf version is to big.

Attached Files

134a health risk.txt (34.4 KB, 165 views)

It'll work if you have the correct oil in there. Common PAG will break down in the presence of R-12. So topping up a system that has been converted to R-134a with R-12 is risky. You need double endcapped PAG to survive in the presence of R-12. Or one of the universal synthetic oils that works with both R-12 and R-134a.

I dispute the fact that Australian taxi's are using propane ( LPgas here)but they probably are as corruption is a way of life here.
Several million cars per year are sold with propane/butane mix in the air con.
R134a is due to be banned.
But for some facts.
propane only burns when it is pure. Add a fridge gas such as remnant 134a or R12 and it will not burn.
It will create it's own oxygen when it does burn creating a cycle of burning and oxidizing.Fireman the world over have been taught this.

Have any of you experts ever burnt R12?
What is the gas given off?
It's phosgene ,it's green and it kills you.
I have had a whiff of pure phosgene,hence the fact i have half of one lung missing.
The effect is instaneous and literally takes your breath away.
If you are in car accident and there is fire the burning R12 will kill you,leaving your corpse to burn .

But the Question I am asking is "How on earth are you guys getting Freon"? ,it has been banned for at least 15 years and the US was supposed to be leading the way. The Chinese have been condemned for making the stuff outside of international agreements.
I have been using LP gas for at least 18 years in all sorts of Fridge plants with zero problems .