Considering coming back -- Which is the best W210 E320? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

71Rcode · #1 09-14-2009, 07:10 PM

Hi everyone, long time since I've been here (sold my wife's '95 E320 a few years ago - she still misses that car). This was always a great site.

OK -- here goes. I'm seriously considering a 2000-2002 E320 for my wife. For the record, I'm a total DIYer -- pulled the W124 cylinder head, brakes, struts, water pump (woof), starter, headrests, you name it

, I've done it.

Here in the Dallas / Fort Worth area I'm seeing used W210s in the '00-02 range selling for at or under $10k (under 100k on the odometer).

Am I getting in over my head? Thoughts? Warnings? Recommendations?

Thanks, guys. Chris in DFW

suginami · #2 09-14-2009, 07:38 PM

2000-2002 E320's are fantastic. There is very little to look out for. I think they're the best Mercedes ever built.

RAYMOND485 · #3 09-14-2009, 08:31 PM

2001 E320, 59K
REPLACE THE RADIATOR,LEAK TO TRANSMISSION, REPLACE RIGHT ENGINE MOUNT, HAVE TO REMOVE 120 AMP ALTERNATOR TO INSTALL THE MOTOR MOUNT I INSTALL A REBUILT ALT. MOUNT LEAKING, BUY A 2006 E350 MORE POWER AND FUEL MILEAGE,

71Rcode · #4 09-16-2009, 06:59 AM

Paul, long time no see! Glad to know you're still on this forum.

Raymond, I read your post as a "don't do it!".

----------- I was looking back at my posts from a few years ago. The how tos I wrote up, the questions I had....man, I spent a lot of time thinking about, planning for and working on that '95 E320.

Do I really want to get back in that mode? Do I really want the paniced wife calling me because the temp gauge shot up or the engine wouldn't turn over?

For some reason, she loved THAT car more than any other.

jcyuhn · #5 09-16-2009, 11:14 AM

The common 210 problems are pretty well known by this point. I'm sure you've been reading up on them in the forum, so I won't attempt to elaborate here. There are not many issues with the 210 that cause reliability or driveability problems; I would expect you are less likely to get that call from your wife than with the 124.

There is no difference between the 2000 -2002 210 cars (2003 if you count wagons). Go for the best combination of miles/condition/records, etc. Don't shy away from an E430 if you find a good one, there isn't a material difference in fuel economy between it and the E320.

Anecdotally, my 2001 E320 wagon has been a good car. Purchased in Sep. 2004, starmarked w/20K miles. Now have 70+K. It's never failed to start, never needed a tow, never done anything that worried me. Repairs I've had done over the course of 5 years are typical 210 stuff - one broken window regulator, a couple flakey pixels in the dash display, a bad MAF, a flaky headrest motor, and a set of spark plug wires. Right now it needs shifter bushings and a new rubber antenna thingy for the telematics. So far I haven't touched the engine - it even has the original serpentine belt, and it looks good.

Other than that, just routine maintenance - A&B services about every 12K miles, one set of plugs @ 5 years, one transmission service. Service is about as easy as any other Benz, and happens less frequently than earlier models. I've done so little work on the thing that I don't really feel all that familiar with it. How's that for a recommendation?

suginami · #6 09-16-2009, 11:46 AM

I've posted the same information so many times I sound like a broken record.

My neighbor has been working for over 10 years at the local Mercedes dealer - Penske Mercedes in Covina, CA. He was promoted to team leader about a year ago. He knows these cars inside and out.

He has repeatedly stated in his opinion that W210 E320 and E430s are the most reliable, trouble free Mercedes ever built.

They don't have any of the common problems that W124's have: no wiring harness issues, no head gasket leaks, no throttle actuator failures, no a/c issues with leaking evaporators. And the 722.6 transmissions are bullet-proof. In fact, until recently all of the AMG cars on all of the chassis were still using the 722.6 transmission, even though the regular C, E, and S class cars have been using the 7 speed automatic transmission since 2004, or so. Even the Mercedes / McLaren SLR car uses the 722.6.

In cold weather climates that use salt on the roads, early W210's see occasional spring perch failures. My neighbor has never seen one, though, at Penske.

You also sometimes see Crank Position Sensor failures where the car fails to start after a hot re-start. The part is fairly cheap and takes about 5-10 minutes to replace (if you know exactly where it is). You can feel it with your hands, but can't see it.

I had a few pixels go out in the instrument cluster for the time display, but there is a guy here in So. Cal. who fixes them while you wait for a couple hundred dollars. There are also companies that fix them if you send them in the mail.

There was also a factory recall on crankshaft harmonic balancers from 1998-midyear 2000 models.

The comment above about looking for an E430 is a good one. There is almost no mileage penalty in getting the V8. I get about 19 in mainly city driving, about 21-22 in mixed driving, and 25-26 mpg in all freeway driving.

Ed Richardson · #7 09-16-2009, 12:38 PM

Good cars. If the Crank Position Sensor has not been replaced, I would do it as a precaution. Cheap insurance.
Ed

Texholdem · #8 09-16-2009, 01:51 PM

If the budget allows, a W211 would be the better choice. The body is aesthetically beautiful.

Geeky1 · #9 09-16-2009, 04:29 PM

The W210s are good cars; I don't recall seeing much difference in reliability between any of the '98+ models (I was a service advisor for a MB/BMW shop from 2005-2008; I have approximately zero experience turning wrenches but I saw a LOT of 210s-and not much else, really.

) although the E55s are, in my opinion, better than the lesser models.

Yeah, they're the same car with the same basic engine, but I didn't see valve cover gasket leaks and oil pan gasket leaks on the AMG cars as frequently as I did on the 320/430, and when I did it was usually at higher mileage. Admittedly, I didn't see as many E55s as I did the lesser models either, so that's anecdotal data that should be taken with a grain of salt, but... They're not that expensive anymore and it's a good reason to justify the extra cost over the E320/430, right?

Common issues (if my memory is serving me correctly) include:

Crank position sensor failure; may or may not cause a check engine light, may or may not cause the engine to run poorly. Will cause stalling and no-starts at random.
Airflow meter failures (do the throttle body gaskets @ the same time).
Oil leaks-valve cover gaskets, small cover plate on the timing cover below the oil filter housing, sometimes (fairly rarely) upper & lower pan gaskets.
Differential fluid leaks (the breather tube gets plugged up and they puke out of the axle seals). Also, people never change the diff fluid in these things. I'd recommend at least every 60,000 miles.
Potential transmission issues ( @ 100k+) due to lack of maintenance (thanks to Mercedes calling it "maintenance free"). Change the fluid & filter at least every 60k. If you want to be really particular about it, halve that and treat it like the older 4G-Tronic. That may be excessive, but the fluid isn't that expensive, the filter and pan gasket are dirt cheap and I'd rather change a filter and the fluid than the whole transmission.
Electrical connector on the front passenger side of the transmission leaks; fluid gets into the wiring harness and if left to continue for too long the fluid will wick up the harness, fill the TCU and make a big, oily mess out of it-and shorting it out in the process. Only saw it go that far twice in 3 years, but it does happen.
Recall on the harmonic balancer on some cars, as suginami mentioned; call the dealership with the VIN number and they'll be able to tell you if it's been done or not. If it hasn't, do it ASAP.
Occasional issues with the LCD display in the instrument cluster, which suginami also mentioned.

Of that list, the ones that I can all but guarantee you will experience are the crank position sensor, the oil leaks @ the valve cover gaskets and the cover plate, and the transmission leak @ the harness connector. The diff. fluid leak is likely if you keep the car to 150k+. The rest of them are common enough to be of note but not something that happened with every car we saw or anything like that.

I would not recommend a W211, personally. We were only just starting to see them when I left, but I saw some things that didn't impress me very much. My gut feeling is that they're not as reliable or as robust as the W210.

Bill Adkins · #10 09-16-2009, 09:03 PM

The last year, 02 I think was by far the best. It had the latest and greatest stuff in the car. From engine controls to interior electronics it was by far the best. For a total diy type of guy a 56 chevy is probably the easiest to own without need of technical help. Probably the biggest weakness in that car would be the transmission. If it fails then you just have it repaired and continue to enjoy the car.
Bill

Pete Geither · #11 09-17-2009, 07:47 AM

My 2000 E320 was a total disaster with rust issues and I practically gave the car away. I found an 02 for my wife and after being in this region all it's life it has zero rust on it. Mercedes did something to these cars in the last years of production to address the rust issues. All said I love the 210's even more than the many 124's I have owned. My 211 seems to be even better yet but time will tell.

71Rcode · #12 09-17-2009, 07:54 AM

EXCELLENT input, everyone. Thanks for taking the time to post it all.

------ Question: are the engine/trannies in the W210 series the same as in the W163s (similar years/models). For example: E320/ML 320? Seven passenger seating is interesting....

----------------------------------------
jcyuhn -- long time, my friend. Thanks for the note. Yes, I've been souring the forums looking for tidbits of info. But this thread has been a real wealth. Glad to see you're still driving the wagon and it's done so well for you. I'm in a '97 volvo 960 wagon. Best car I've ever had (150k). One thing I'm not sure I like about the 430s is what appears to me to be a lack of room in the engine compartment (front of the motor). I've never compared it side by side to a 320 though... Great recommendation.

Paul, with nearly 7k posts, you're gonna feel like a broken record

Another great recommendation, man. Great to hear about the solid evaporators. And yes, I'd definitely stick to an 01-2 model. Suprising that the 6 and 8 cylinder are so similar in economy. How about performance?

Ed, thanks. Will do on the CPSensor. Tex, interesting about the 211. To me, they don't look as "MB" as the previous generation. Too rounded, I think is what strikes me. If I did go W211, it would definitely be a 2007 or so model. However, that is 2x the cost of a W210.

Geeky, service advisors get plenty of crediblity. In fact, you've seen all the red faced 1st gen MB owners. What is your opinion of the ML320s? A "lot" of 210s, eh? Excellent bullet points, sir. Nearly all of those are all very DIY friendly. Thanks for the W211 warning. -- '73 Riv, eh? I have a '73 mustang convertible with a 408 stroker cleveland.

Bill, good stuff. Thanks for posting. I think a '56 chevy would be too primitive for me though. Kidding....

jcyuhn · #13 09-17-2009, 10:29 AM

Geeky knows his stuff. His post reminded me that I'm seeing a bit of seepage from the valve cover gaskets on my car. Just noticed it at the last service. Not a problem yet, but will need some attention in the future.

The 210 isn't as rust resistant as the 124, that's for sure. Just make sure you're looking at Texas cars and there's no issue. Not like it's hard to buy a used MB in Dallas.

The V6 would be a bit easier to work on, but I don't expect the difference is all that large. Plugs and such would be the same on V6 & V8 - a bit tight, but not too bad. The V6 has about a foot of open space between the serpentine belt and the radiator; I expect the V8 is a bit tighter but don't know how much.

The 163 is the same basic drivetrain as the 210 4matic cars. There are probably detail differences in the engine/transmission, but it's essentially the same setup. Don't tell me you're gonna buy an ML?!?

Geeky1 · #14 09-17-2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 71Rcode

What is your opinion of the ML320s? A "lot" of 210s, eh?

Thanks; and yeah, I've had the whole "It's going to cost WHAT!?!" conversation a few times... "Well, it's German and it sure as hell wasn't cheap to buy, what exactly made you think it was cheap to fix?" Or the ever-popular "These cars aren't supposed to do this, everyone says they run forever." "They do run forever." "Then why is it broken!?" "Er... Because you haven't done an oil change or anything else on it in the past 30,000 miles and 2 years?"

Yeah. Anyhow.

As far as the MLs go... In a word: Run. There are few things that should make you more uncomfortable than shelling out your own money for a ML. Amongst them are Volkswagen products (don't ask; you think this post is long? By the time I get done with THAT the letters on my keyboard will have worn off and I'll have a twitchy eye. Yeah, we did VW/Audi service too. I'm still in therapy for it. The good news is that the doctors say the straitjacket can come off soon if I don't have any more episodes...) and being threatened with being forced to drive a 1992 Suzuki Swift for the rest of your life. A 3 cylinder one. With a miss in cylinder 2 and an a/c compressor that won't shut off, a slipping automatic that intermittently won't go into reverse, and a radio that plays nothing but Britney Spears' Greatest Hits. Turned up to 11. Sitting on a bald right rear tire from Wal-Mart with a tread wear rating of 15,000 and 3 donut spares.

I don't know what, exactly, it is that went wrong with the MLs. I've heard all kinds of theories and speculation, but the bottom line is that in 3 years, @ an average of 25-40 cars/week (total, not 25-40 MLs), I think I met two people with MLs that were happy with them.

You could make an argument that being relatively inexpensive as far as Mercedes go, they attract a different "class" of buyer that really doesn't expect the ongoing price one pays for German engineering. And that may very well be true; the engines and transmissions aren't really any less reliable in my experience than they are in any of the other C/E/S/etc. cars that used the same 3 valve engines and 5G-Tronics (although the MLs seemed to have a much higher probability of upper oil pan gasket leaks than anything else did, for whatever reason. That's a fun job, too. LOTS of fun. Wouldn't call it a DIY job unless you're the masochistic type; if you are, feel free to enjoy hours [and hours... and hours...] of giddy, gleeful pain and suffering.) But the rest of the cars-the electrical system and such-are just, for lack of a better term, "flaky".

I can only give you one concrete reason to not buy one-they chew through brakes at an utterly astonishing rate. Most of my customers were lucky to hit 20,000 miles on a set of front brakes, I don't recall anyone doing more than 25k. And we were using OE/OEM parts. Other than that, I mean... I can't point at them and go "well all the window regulators will fail simultaneously, then the fuel tank will fall out and the steering wheel will come off in your hands" or anything. They just seem to be more problematic than other Mercedes are.

And I think you'll find that, if you're looking at them specifically for 7-seat capacity, a regular E class wagon would be better. The 3rd row seat in the ML was optional, and while I've never seen a ML with the option, judging by the cargo area behind the second row seat, I think it's probably reserved exclusively for people under 4ft tall that have no legs.

Finally, for what it's worth, I think they're awful to drive. I cannot find a comfortable position for the seat-eventually the angle of the pedals ends up bothering my feet-and the whole thing just feels really cheap to me. It does not at all make me feel like I'm driving a Mercedes.

---

As far as the V6 vs. V8 in the 210 goes: The V6 has more room, obviously, but the V8 isn't too bad, I don't think. I've never done any actual work on either one myself, but the 210 certainly isn't packed as tightly as say, the M119 was in the W124-where you open the hood, look down, look at the technician, say "ha, sucks to be you" and walk away.

Oh, and one thing I forgot to mention on the 210s (although this is common in newer cars period, irrespective of brand or model, in my experience); they have fluid filled engine mounts. Over time they crack, leak, and collapse. If the car's got 80k+ on it and it hasn't had them done, it probably needs them.

And the '73 Mustangs were nice cars; the '71-73 has always been my favorite body style--closely followed by the '69-70.

71Rcode · #15 09-17-2009, 05:50 PM

Thanks, Jcyuhn. I wasn't seriously considering and ML... my friend mentioned them, possibly getting one for himself. The more I read about them on various sites and this one, the more red flags that hit me in the chops. We're very lucky living in Dallas. Always a huge lot of these discarded MBs to choose from

Kevin, man ..... what a post. Excellent info. I was driving home from work a few minutes ago when I pulled up next to and ML... I actually changed lanes to get away from it. Don't need any of that bad mojo rubbing of on my 960! Thanks for taking the time to write all of that up. So cool for us to hear the horror stories from a former company man that saw the customers/cars every day, and had to break a lot of bad news. You guys have convinced me that the '01-02 210s is the right move. I sent my wife the link to this thread and you had her cracking up..... "4 feet tall.." Greatness.

Post a pic of your Buick. I used to work for Year One in Atlanta (mid '90s) when we were still a small company. Love the 455 Buicks... Before this '73 convert, I had a '71 Boss 351 that I spent five years redoing and then sold. Awesome car. This one is more of a cruiser. Still trying to work out all the bugs (former show car). I converted it from ginger to white interior, and converted the 2v 351c to a 408c stroker/roller hydraulic cam motor. Once I get her dialed in, should be an easy 400 hp at the crank. Here are a few pix:

(was this)