cps coolant spill=no start?
 

I have searched this forum and read about testing the CPS which may be causing my no-start. I have replaced the oil as there was a strong smell of fuel in my old oil. The car almost fires now and does momentarily at times. At one point, a few day ago, it did fire and run well but it wanted to stall at low RPM. At this point, i am starting my car with a can of ether and my fuel relay unplugged to simplify this matter as much possible-spark, fuel(ether) no electronic inputs ie coolant sensor, OVP, EHA out of the equation-purely mechanical.

I did spill some coolant just before my no-start issue arose although it did fire the first time. I have been told by obvious experts that unless the CPS is cracked, there should be no effect from spilled coolant. However, if googling causes of a bad CPS, it does state that spilling of fluids can "corrupt" a CPS-this also comes from reputable sellers of these sensors I believe one is redline.com I did not want to post this thread unless necessary but i cannot get my car to start and to say its frustrating is an understatement!! Any input much appreciated.

Do you have compression?

What about spark?

If you have no spark, then the things to check are:

Coil - basic checks can be done with an ohm meter. See the spec in the workshop manual.

Rotor arm and cap - both in good condition, clean, dry etc?

Plug leads - all in good condition? Good connection to cap/spark plugs?

Crank sensor - basic functionality can be tested with an ohm meter i.e. it shouldnt be open circuit. If you hook it up to an oscilloscope, and crank the engine you can determine if its actually picking up.

Ignition module - found on the inner fender on the left side. You can see if you have 12v feeding the unit, and a good ground. The wiring diagram is in the manual to see the pin designations.

Hopefully this will give you something to work at.

What model and year are we talking about here? Not sure what your coolant leak is all about, but if you have reason to suspect the CPS, the test is very easy and quick to perform. Even better, if the CPS (L5 sensor) proves to be bad, the repair is easy and inexpensive.

For my W124 with M103 motor, this is the main diagnostic test for that L5 sensor (see FSM section 15-1250 for complete description). Engine cold. Ignition off. Multimeter set to Ohms. Unplug the L5 sensor at the EZL. Positive probe on inside of pin. Negative probe on outer part of pin. Spec is 680 -1200 Ohms. If no, rplc L5 sensor. Your test may be different depending on year/model.

no start 190e 1989 2.6
 

Guys(car learner and quaid) I can get the car to fire momentarily(sometimes) after spraying ether with the fuel relay disconnected and once last week the car easily fired with ether and immediately with the fuel relay re-installed. At the moment, its not giving me enough confidence that if i reinstalled the fuel relay, it will start. Does this point to anything?

I should add when it did fire the once with the fuel relay reinstalled, it drove well, just wanted to stall at low RPM.

Car learner-will look more at the CPS- I assume having spark at coil is not a significant indicator if this part fails?

Thanks guys!

no start 190e 1989 2.6
 

anybody have an opinion as to the fuel distributor causing a vacuum leak. My fuel distributor has a major leak-im just wondering if that could be the culprit. I have no understanding of the design of the distributor. I am spraying ether into the air sensor with very little success of a start although last week I had a start.

The factory service manual is a great source not only for test procedures and correct operating specs, but for aiding in understanding how major mechanical systems work. If you can get hold of the FSM for your car, it'll be a good investment. As an alternative, since you have the M103 motor also used in W124 chassis, you can use the Polish website at the URL below. Simply select your model year, then go on to Engine Mechanical, then to CIS to find everything relevant to the injection system, including the fuel distributor and all the diagnostic test procedures for CPS and other components. Just a thought. (P.S. It's true I'm still learning about my car after 21+ years, but my I-net alias is actually a reference to my alma mater, now quite a bit more than 21 years ago. :))

http://mb.auto.pl/index.php/Dok.-serwisowa-CD1.html

thanks cal learner
 

Am i right to assume you went to Cal as in the Bears as opposed to studying in California? I am in California at the moment-Big Bear.

Thanks for the great link!!

If I may, on my no-start, can I totally rule out the ignition system as a factor if I have strong spark on the plugs-I was going to test the plugs installed with a tester that flashes an LED when the plugs sparks. I have been told that i can rule out the CPS for example by the mere presence of spark at the coil and that tests on the CPS are performed only if there is no presence of spark at the coil. I found that questionable.

Anyone else welcome to weigh in.

Thanks again Cal learner!!

Have you verified that the Idle Control Valve hose is connected securely on both ends going over to the Air Intake Boot?

Here's why I always recommend checking this hose before replacing parts.
Other than a defective battery, the only time my '93 has failed to start since I bought it new is when I stopped at a Target store one day. When I returned to my car, it wouldn't start. I could have replaced the spark plugs, wires, fuel pump relay, ovp relay, fuel pumps, distributor cap, distributor, fuel pressure relay, etc.

Instead, I reached under the Air Intake Boot and I could feel that the hose was split.
I pulled the hose off, saw a technician pull into a parking space nearby and asked him if he had any electrical tape. Sure enough, he did so I taped up the hose and connector, re-intalled it and drove home. I purchased a new hose the next day.

slkred
 

I have read many posts from you and always thought your input was accurate and based on sound judgement even to a total novice such as myself. I will check the 2 boots as you suggest-they are quite difficult to follow and access as well as being rock- hard. I have changed the ICV recently so it would make sense I have perhaps damaged the hoses/boots. I did seem to have a very lean mix before my no-start. Thanks for the advice!!

Those hoses do become rock hard/brittle over time. I would suggest replacing them on both ends of the ICV. The hose connection on the bottom of the Air Intake Boot connects via a plastic male/male connector. It pulls straight out.

You still haven't gotten this thing started yet?

Seriously, what's this, your 4th no-start thread on the same car?



Bottom line, without a scope, you can't reliably test the sensor.

You can get a Beru "reference sensor" for less than $60. I'd go with that and eliminate it as a suspect. They do wear out.

thanks
 

Think its my third and no I have not got the car started but I have got it to fire somewhat whereas before it would not start at all most likely due to a compression loss with fuel in the oil. Even to some guys with obviously much more experience than me, the answers are not always that obvious.

Thanks for the info on CPS-that fits with someone who had his CPS pass all of the tests, then when he replaced it with a new one, it immediately fired. What I have been told is that with a strong spark at the coil, the CPS is fine. Now, if that is bad info, one can appreciate why I am having some difficulties.

If you have a strong spark at the coil, then your CPS is OK.

Look at the plug leads, rotor arm, cap, and plugs themselves.

That's not true, and he's already done all that (or has claimed to).

A bad CPS can send a weak/false trigger signal, and/or a bad EZL can fire the coil at the wrong time.

The only thing a strong spark at the coil proves beyond a shadow of a doubt is that there is a strong spark at the coil.

input
 

The only thing I can offer to the debate of the CPS and strong spark is that it would seem one of the tests for the CPS would involve checking the spark at the coil in the manual which I dont believe it does or perhaps its considered slightly dangerous. Perhaps more often than not, a strong spark is indicative of good CPS. Thats all i can add which obviously is not much. I do appreciate the comments here; hopefully this thread will be of some value to others if we can come to a definitive answer. Thanks guys for trying help!!

Look, no offense, but you do realize that If you had taken it to an indy and paid for an hour of diagnostic time when you first posted, your car would have been running for at least a week by now, right?

They have the tools to properly test the engine; you do not.

Without those tools, all you can really do is throw parts at it until it starts...

dh
 

Well-I am interested in figuring this out for myself to a great extent to learn. Moreover, I have read numerous posts here with people taking it to the shop and even the techs not fixing the problem or people being given the wrong solutions and still having the same problem. Unless I am hugely mistaken, many people on these forums have solved their own no-starts as SLR red attests to by temporarily fixing the damaged hoses to ICV in a parking lot. Having said that, I see your point. I am actually paying a tech over the net-he stated a good spark at the coil means the CPS is fine by the way which just about forces me to throw in the proverbial towel.

If you want to learn, buy a proper service manual and read about how your engine actually works. Unless you understand that, all the tools and advice in the world won't help you.

Every problem is different - anecdotes can only get you so far. You've obviously got a problem that is not the "quick fix" type, so it's time to spend some money.

And FYI - there are help lines for techs, too, and the guys on the other end of the line aren't that reliable.

dhjenkins
 

it doesnt take a rocket scientist to understand the basics to get a motor to run which i have read extensively on this site-"engine will not fire for beginners" by one of the moderators and have spent many hours going over other threads and it has helped. I have to disagree with you that the fix is possibly not a "quick fix"-perhaps not to me obviously but I m ok with that. Your attitude comes across quite condensending and really i do find it somewhat offensive. Obviously from your credentials , you are the expert but is the purpose of your replies to help or to show how much smarter you are than everyone else?? No one is forcing you to reply to a post and my questions ONLY to you seem unworthy of this web site. If this site was ONLY for people with credentials and qualified mechanics, and the rules of the forum stated such, then I could understand your attitude. Moreover, on this post, there are two conflicting views with regard to the CPS and coil spark test so I feel it has added some value. Thanks.

Wow, nice way to treat the guy who's offered more help than anyone in your 3 or 4 threads. I see absolutely nothing wrong or offensive with anything he's posted to you. You actually think he uses his free time helping people here for vanity? Are you serious?
Where do you see a problem with someone suggesting that after 2 weeks and 3 or 4 threads that you might be better off taking your car to a shop?? I don't see anything wrong or offensive with that at all, period.
And he is ABSOLUTELY right, virtually every shop, even with master techs, has a computer these days that they use to go on line to research and get advise on procedures and diagnosis. Read the sig lines of some of the posters here, many are experienced certified techs and even they come to get advice and often disagree with each other! (and are usually quite civil about it)

Let me ask you some questions, if someone says to you (which apparently they have), Yes, spilling antifreeze on a CPS might cause it to malfunction, will you replace it? Will you trust that person has any basis to even make the statement? Will you need a few people to agree before you act? What if three people without credentials say yes and one with credentials says no, it's not likely, will you replace it then? They're all just OPINIONS, what will you need to hear (again) before you act on an opinion?

I'll go out on a limb. I've been working on cars all my life, I've worked at a dealership and was certified, and I'll say NO, unless it's already damaged spilling antifreeze on it will NOT cause a malfunction. They're designed and built as SEALED units. How will you know if the seal is good? You'll need to take it out to examine it. Will you do that? If it is damaged it needs replacing anyway. Is it damaged, weak or worn internally? You'll NEED to test it as already suggested several times, to find out. You don't even need to take it out to do that. But even if all appears good I'll say your problem still could be the CPS. Does that help at all?? NO.
If you think it might be it, then just replace the damn thing, no one here can possibly tell you yes, I'm sure that's it! If it's too expensive get one at a junk yard, but unless something else SOLVES the problem it's going to be a likely suspect that nobody on a forum can eliminate [or guarantee] as the cause of your problem.

Have you performed the ohm test on it that DHJenkins suggested (and several posters supported) 2 threads and a week ago? Have you even unplugged it at the EZL to verify a clean solid connection?

Like DHJenkins says [and you're offended by] the only way to PROPERLY proceed in a case like this is to get the testing equipment and methodically eliminate possibilities, otherwise you just throw parts at it on a likelihood basis. Sporadic success like you've had can actually just confuse things even more, leaving you groping at possibilities you thought you already eliminated. Even then, if everything checks out you still might end up throwing a few likely parts at it, but at least you'll have a better grasp of what's "likely".

On a forum like this NO ONE can give you the definitive answer you want to your satisfaction. They can only offer HELP, which is what DHJenkins was giving you, even if it was something you didn't want to hear.

artony12,

This is just my opinion and I'm sure that most forum members want to help, especially since we don't like throwing parts at a problem.

Sounds like you are methodical and have desire to learn about the operation of your 190E. I think if you stick to 1 thread and weed through the suggestions, you'll be able to isolate your no start/hard start problems. Keep testing and reporting back on the original thread, that way it's easier for members to follow. And, most importantly, in the end, post what fixed your problem so others can gain from it.

I've been through all of the components on my 190 and I know that I have the knowledge to make one not start, hard to start, idle low, idle high, etc. This can be done in a matter of seconds.

If you really think that the 'spilled coolant' has caused your problem, then maybe your CPS is defective. If it's even suspect, I would probably replace it as a maintenance item.

Car problems can happen suddenly, like my MB indy friend tells me what he hears from his customers; "the part was working good yesterday". I helped a guy a few years ago that was driving his 190 home from work. He got off the interstate and his engine died and wouldn't restart. He wanted to start checking sensors, CIS Module, relays, etc. I told him to give it a good visual inspection first to try and eliminate anything basic. When he got to the distributor cap and rotor, guess what he found?

Oh, and the part was working just fine the day before.:rolleyes:

Good luck finding your problem,

Dave

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...rokenrotor.jpg

long gone
 

I have always been very graceful and appreciative of any and all advice and offered which clear to any of the posts and responses to people including dhjenkins who have offered advice for free-this is evident in each case if you read my replies. The point has absolutely nothing to do with dhjenkins is wrong or not i simply dont like being told I know nothing about how an engine works and chastized for posting more than one thread or told to take the car to an indy or in my opinion comes across as condenscending and i am not just refering to this one post-i know I have the option of taking the car to a qaulified mechanic. Moreover, because of the help here I have had the car fire up and run once so its not a total loss. I simply feel a bit more diplomacy is order-if you disagree thats OK. I had very kindly stated to DH to keep in mind i am not an expert once already so I stick by my guns. Again, if this forum is for experts only then I can see how i would be in the wrong. Thanks.

Long gone-FYI i did take out the CPS and check those Ohms, etc.

thanks long-gone
 

I wanted to thank you for you time and input regarding the spill on the CPS-I overlooked to do so in my response.

The guys on this forum are here to learn and to spend a few enjoyable, rewarding hours talking cars with each other. That all works much better for everyone concerned if judgmental comments and indignant tone are left out of postings. If someone is slower to catch on than you think he should be, it's easy enough to just pass on making further comments, rather than taking it personal. For your consideration.

slr red, cal learner, long-gone, dhjenkins,quiad
 

Thanks guys for the info and advice esp SLr red, cal learner for your patience and understanding. I think i have a vacuum leak as the spark plugs were dry at first no -start, the plugs were wet with damaged spark plugs(dont ask!) so no fire but with the new plugs it fired, now back to dry after cranking. I have a terrible fuel leak at the fuel distributor but since I have unplugged the fuel relay and just use ether, one would have thought the fuel distributor is out of the picture but I was told something about an 0-ring in there and to replace that. I will spend more time checking the 2 boots as well at the ICV.

Is the leak coming from the EHA area? Those O rings are known to leak.
Also, check the ICV hoses before going any further, if it's not connected to the air intake boot it will not start.

Sorry you got offended, but I'm only stating fact. These engines are far more complex than you seem to realize.



Oh, and starting more than one thread on a single problem clutters up the forum. The ideal thread has a problem, suggestions and a solution - it doesn't just dead end like your previous posts.

Good luck with your problem.

slr red
 

SLR red-The (significant) leak is coming from the top down actually down on to the EHA and flowing down on to the back of the fuel distributor. The O ring would not be an issue with the fuel relay unplugged could it and the use of ether spray to start the engine? I mean with regard to ummetered air? I apologize for my ignorance. Thanks again. :)

Will check those hoses first as you suggest.

Sounds more like a loose injector line. Was there a fuel leak problem before your coolant spill?

slkred
 

SLK-The problem was there before when I had the pententiometer unplugged for a moment but now the the leak is always there. The leak comes from a seam ,if you will, at the distributor(appears to be in two halfs) and not just at one small area. It seems to have gotten worse for certain. Would it play any role if I have the fuel relay unplugged and use ether which was successful in getting the engine to fire a few days ago? I have a vague understanding of the design-im thinking in term of air getting in somehow. Thanks again for your input and time.

I doubt if unplugging the Fuel Pump relay would have any affect on causing the Fuel Distributor to start leaking.

As far as the O ring you mentioned previously, I guess you are referring to the Control Plunger Seal in the Fuel Distributor.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...image002-1.gif

slkred
 

Sorry-at the moment i have the fuel relay unplugged to narrow the scope-the fuel relay unplugged did not cause any leakage. From the info I am getting, the leaking fuel distributor will not be an issue if I am spraying ether and thus omiting fuel delivery from the tank. There is no leakage with the fuel relay unplugged-makes sense.

What i find perplexing is that I had the car fire nicely on ether once, plugged the fuel relay back in and it ran fantastically well apart from wanting to stall at low RPM-this was several days ago. Will check those two hoses more. One side had alot more movement than another-the one on the right. Thanks SLKred for the download!

got it to start!!
 

Guys-I go the car to run. I first installed new plugs and went back to my trusty can of ether with fuel relay unplugged and it fired momentarily until it exhausted the ether. When i went to plug in the fuel relay, the car would not start so I unplugged the fuel relay again and sprayed the ether and it ran again momentarily. Back with the fuel relay and almost starts after jiggling the two hoses at the ICV. I went in the house and recall advice given by as shop owner in Florida that advised to disconnect the EHA plug to omit all electric inputs/sensors with a no-start. Went out unplugged the EHA and bang it started right up! The car idles rough and to be honest I am not sure exactly why the car started-new plugs or vac leak at the two hoses at the ICV. Will of course investigate further. Also, I had a trouble code for the 02 sensor so my CEL came back on but for now i happy to get the car started!! Thanks to all except dh jenkins-joking!!

getting the car started 190e 2.6
 

To anyone with a no-start, I would suggest keeping in mind the basics of getting a motor to fire. I am totally new to this but it certainly seemed to work for me. I was more or less told that these cars are so complex that a novice should not even try but from what i can suss out, a motor is a motor especially if one omits the sensors which on this car can be done by disconnecting the EHA. The car will be harder to start cold but I have had plenty of experience running the vehicle with a dud OVP and in my experience, the car will still fire but may not stay running until the motor warms up. Thats completely different from a situation where there was no hint the motor would fire which was my predicament. I went one step further and disconnected my fuel relay and used ether which limits the scope even further. The other advice I recvd was to be careful with spraying ether as it can crack a piston. There was a funny story by one of the moderators of a guy who sprayed the entire can then punctured a hole in the can to get the last drop only to damage the motor. Others kindly advised checking the vehicle for air leaks esp at the ICV and plan to replace my hoses as they are hard and very likely played a role which I can expand on later. Thanks to everyone who helped!!