PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/index.php)
-   Tech Help (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/forumdisplay.php?f=1)
-   -   help with w124 rear hatch glass TRIM removal (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=294444)

locry 02-20-2011 03:13 AM

help with w124 rear hatch glass TRIM removal
 
I have a bit of rust on the lower right portion of my hatch where the glass trim/rubber is at. I'd like to take a peek in there and see if I can do anything about it. I first need to remove the grey metal trim piece surrounding the glass, how do i go about doing this? Any body have any experience removing the trim, rubber, glass?

thanks

JohnM. 02-20-2011 03:54 AM

OK. These are VERY tricky to remove without bending the trim. There are only two phillips screws at the very bottom of the rear window trim (open the trunk to see them, under the rubber piece). Other than that, the trim just sits in a grooved channel in the window rubber. I have removed one succesfully with two flat bladed screw drivers, but scratched the paint (it was a junkyard car). One I bent at the very end of removal. And on one car I broke the rear glass. So two soft tipped, but stout pry tools are needed. One on each side of trim and just pop it loose little by little. There is actually an FSM on this, I might be able to find it.

locry 02-20-2011 05:15 AM

yikes. :) breaking the glass is not an option!!! haha
I forgot to mention that it's for a wagon... I have no idea where to look for the screws. I thought they'd just pop out or something.
There are 2 "breaks" exactly dead center on the top and bottom perimeter. I guess this is where things overlap. I don't know what the trim looks like when removed. If I could find a picture then i could maybe figure out how to go from there.

engatwork 02-20-2011 07:32 AM

I would suggest hiring out the glass removal/installation to someone that does it for a living. With the glass and seal out of the way you can take care of the rust and then have them re-install the glass. You will probably need to purchase a new seal.

locry 02-20-2011 08:11 PM

i will eventually have to resort to that i believe... but I need to take a peek in there first before deciding what to do next.
Is the trim separate from the rubber? I would think so... correct?
What is holding the glass to the rear hatch? Is it the same with the windshield? Can the trim and the rubber trim/gasket be removed without removing the glass?

The reason I ask is because i have successfully removed the trim and rubber gasket up front to "seal" a few leaks... was just wondering if its the same at the back

engatwork 02-20-2011 10:34 PM

It is my understanding that the trim is a separate piece from the rubber seal. I have never seen the seal/trim removed without removing the glass. Just for an example we recently had a windshield company replace the rear glass in the gold 1995 W124 car and it came to ~$250 which was for new glass, rubber seal and labor which I did not think was that bad.

Aquaticedge 02-21-2011 01:11 AM

if you mess up your glass Gasket, I have one I'll sell

locry 02-21-2011 03:42 AM

which part is the glass gasket? the rubber part at the outer or inner perimeter that is visible? or are they one and the same. A breakdown or diagram of the parts would be most helpful... thanks. PM me the price if ever. :)

engatwork 02-21-2011 07:50 AM

I'm not quite following you when you ask inner/outer. The rubber seal around the rear windshield is one piece.

vince 02-21-2011 08:08 PM

The aluminum trim is set into the rubber seal before installing the glass. It cannot be removed separately without damaging it. The window is easy to remove. Carefully roll the rubber seal upward and outward while applying gentle pressure from the inside. I have done this job for the same reason - rust under the rubber seal. In fact, lifting the aluminum trim won't reveal anything. The rust is coming from the steel panel under the rubber seal.

To reinstall, lube the seal, insert two cords into the groove in the rubber seal, set the window over the opening and have a helper apply gentle pressure, then pull the cords to roll the seal lip over the flange.

locry 02-21-2011 08:37 PM

@engatwork... from a visual standpoint, looking at the grey trim there seems to be 2 rubber strips alongside the trim, the inner rubber I refer to is the one that slopes down and mates to the glass... the outer part i refer to is the rubber "lip" that rests along the hatch bodywork. The inner rubber seems harder...while the outer rubber is more pliable. it seems tome that they are made up of two different types of rubber, which leads me to assume that they are 2 separate pieces. I know pics would be helpful at this point, I will try to get one. :)

@vince... are you saying that the aluminum trim cannot be removed without removing the glass? it seems to me that the first thing that CAN and should be removed is the trim. What am I not seeing?

thanks

vince 02-22-2011 05:17 AM

I don't know why you can't see it. The fact is - the seal is a single piece of rubber. The aluminum trim is held in a groove in the rubber seal. When the seal is installed, it grips a lug on the trim, locking it in place.

This is the way nearly all metal trim is held onto rubber glass seals on cars by all manufacturers.

balge 02-22-2011 06:05 AM

2 Attachment(s)
hi
got problems with rusty rear windows on both my wagons so I know I will need to do this soon!
If anyone has actually had a price for these seals? I was just wondering, because you can buy all sorts of complex section mouldings quite cheap? For example, would any of these 's' section mouldings work?

- http://www.sealsdirect.co.uk/bbCMS/shopping.asp?intDepartmentId=4

http://www.par-group.co.uk/rubber-polyurethane/u-channel-sections-with-1-lip.aspx-

They work out at $6 a yard, I reckon 5 yards would do both sides?

cheers!

engatwork 02-22-2011 07:18 AM

Going on memory but I believe the procedure for installation is to install the rubber seal on the glass, install the chrome trim and then install the assembly. People that do it for a living make it look easy.

balge 02-22-2011 07:35 AM

Don't forget the 'string trick'....

locry 02-22-2011 09:24 PM

looking at the cross section of the seals, i get it now. That's why I was asking if the rear glass is installed like the windshield...which doesn't use that system and is just sealed bonded in place, while the trim upfront is held by clips attached to the bodywork, and a rubber gasket/lip just attaches to the trim.
Only question now is: Is the trim installed LAST as a means of locking everything in place, it would be the most logical approach, as one can install the glass/rubber seal while the rubber part still has enough room to be adjusted via the cord.

Follow up question... what type of cord did you use? thanks

vince 02-22-2011 09:36 PM

I think it was made clear by engatwork - install the seal on the glass, install the aluminum trim into the groove in the seal, install the assembly. I lube the seal with dish detergent - it is slippery and washes off easily.

I suggest a new, factory, not aftermarket, seal.

Any cord about 3-4 mm in diameter will work. I use some cotton cord that I coated with candle wax - it makes the cord slide easier. Pull the coed parallel to the glass.

locry 02-22-2011 11:36 PM

Cool! thanks! I think that's all the info I need. :) just have to source a seal before anything else. thanks again!

balge 02-23-2011 04:42 AM

Just checked the price for these seals - p/n A1246701939 & A1246702039

Works out at £220 for both seals - that's $350 by my count :eek::eek::eek:

locry 02-23-2011 07:59 AM

there are 2 seals?!

vince 02-23-2011 08:03 AM

I think blage is referring to the rear side window seals (go back to his earlier post - #13). There is a single seal for the hatch window.

balge 02-23-2011 08:47 AM

1 Attachment(s)
D'Oh!
Have I been posting in the wrong thread...not even been drinking....

ho hum

cheers!

locry 02-23-2011 09:18 AM

been looking for a diagram for the longest time! thanks bro! and to think you stumbled on the wrong thread. :)

balge 02-23-2011 09:29 AM

oh well, its an ill wind......lol
while i'm being helpful

50 on the diagram is the seal p/n A1247400078
17 is 'frame' p/n A1247400056
8 is 'window frame left' p/n A1247450155
11 is 'window frame right' p/n A1247450255

vince 02-24-2011 07:00 AM

#50 is the seal for the hatch. #17 is the seal for the glass. M-B often calls this type of glass seal a "frame".

balge 02-24-2011 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vince (Post 2668448)
#50 is the seal for the hatch. #17 is the seal for the glass. M-B often calls this type of glass seal a "frame".

aaah - spotted:blush:
How obvious, calling a seal a 'frame', and also calling a frame a 'frame'....


cheers!

locry 02-26-2011 06:48 AM

hmmmm... is the removal of the STEEL window frames (parts #8,#11) a destructive process? can they be removed/reinstalled on their own?

vince 02-26-2011 06:56 AM

I thought I had made this clear. Here goes again. Those parts can only be removed or installed as a unit with the glass and the rubber seal. Also, they are not steel; they are aluminum.

locry 02-26-2011 08:13 PM

:) sorry... haha... as an industrial designer... it doesn't make sense to me that everything gets installed ON/WITH the glass... then the ENTIRE assembly fitted to the hatch. What does make sense to me, and if I were to design such an installation: Install rubber on the glass... fit THAT sub assembly to the hatch...having at least a little clearance/give... then when everything is snug on the hatch...install the aluminum trim to LOCK everything in place. I think the purpose of the trim is to "spread/expand/lock in place" the rubber "frame". If it were installed before fitting the entire assembly on the hatch, then the rubber would have already been "expanded/spread" making installation on the hatch doubly difficult if not impossible to install.

Then again... i didn't design this system... and i have not done this on this car. So i definitely could be wrong. :)
I'm not starting a fight or anything. :) It's the ID in me that needs to be convinced, no offense meant bro.
That was my final question... IS it a DESTRUCTIVe PROCESS? removalm of the trim when everyting is in situ. :)
There has got to be a non destructive process and a simple/reversible installation procedure... MB engineers are known for this sort of thing. :)

engatwork 02-26-2011 08:30 PM

Non destructive way is to take a razor blade to cut the old one where you can free up the glass and trim. The part that you don't want to destruct is the trim piece. If you ever use the string method to pop one back in you will see the beauty of the design.

vince 02-26-2011 09:25 PM

I said this before - every glass installation I have ever seen (since WW2) with "on the seal" moldings is done this way. I'm an engineer and it seems perfectly logical to me. It locks the molding into the rubber securely, it stabilizes the rubber seal, it saves production time at assembly and in the field when service is needed.

It really is quite simple and easy to remove and install the assembly, and in fact, to correct the problem you started out with, it is the ONLY way you can get to the problem area to remove ALL the rust and to weld in a small patch of steel. Once the rust appears on the outside it is almost guaranteed that you have a hole near the flange.

I'm done here. All this debate has taken more time than it takes to do the job.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:34 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website