Lemon law
 

I really didn't want to goto open discussion with this...

Has anyone pursued lemon law before?

I kind of got overwhelmed with my benz and bought a new car, nissan versa. Researched it to death. Knew what I was getting into.

I found a 2014 with 12k miles. Got it for 11k flat, 12.2 out the door.

I put zero down, have made two payments so far, $440 total.

3 days after I got it, it started making some noise. Sounds like a partially collapsed lifter and/or injector. I took it in immediately.

First time in they said it was fine. I waited one week. Went to the used lot and started all the versas with 20k miles or more. No ticking.

They took my car again, and put a short block in! So no ones trying to rip me off, they are just that dumb.

Get it home, same noises.

I realized their incompetence, and drive it 2000k miles before the check engine light came on. I scanned it (and left the light on) and got a misfire on number 4.

I listened to the injector, and something isn't right with it. An inconsistent rattle when you let off from a higher rpm.

Ive also had a very alarming noise once when going uphill. About 2800 rpm. Sounds like valve train.

My theory is the bad injector scorched the cylinder. Eventually leading to rod failure. Which led to low oil pressure. Damaging a lifter. But who the hell knows.

So they called and said they can't figure out the misfire. They switched injectors around and couldn't get the light back on....

I asked them if they had the injectors tested. "Nissan doesn't do that"

I asked if they checked valve clearance and compression

"No we didnt check valve clearance"

Did you check compression?

"No we didn't do that either"

That was saturday. I told him I want them to buy the car back under lemon law. He said a manager would call me monday.

Its 4pm on monday, no one has called.

Im debating calling. I currently have a 2015 sentra on loan from them.

Since I got another car, I have taken my time and gone through the benz. Runs great. New motor, tranny, diff, axles, brakes, IP, on and on. Its reliable. Then I polished it and waxed it. And its starting to feel like a better option.

Before I just wanted no headaches with a warranty. But now I'm looking at having to fix the versa, and not the benz.

I took my mother for a ride in the benz. The ultimate test pilot when it comes to analyzing if you could consider it a driver. She loved it and said take the nissan back.

Kinda unorganized and random. But thats where Im at. I have zero time left to deal with a car.

Think I can get them to buy it back? I recorded my conversations on the used lot. And the manager saying they shouldn't make noise or misfire if I buy one (dirty trick).


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Well I don't think you can pursue the "lemon" law when dealing with a used car. I think the Federal Lemon Law applies to new cars only. So what you have is that you want out of the used car from the dealer. That is kind of like being between a rock and a hard place. You will probably have to push pretty hard on that one, and I am of the opinion you will own it until you sell it.

Hmmm interesting.

So I may be going the route of taking it to a qualified shop and having it repaired. And then can I take nissan to small claims court for the bill?

So I guess I should rework my question to what the heck should I do? Lol.

Good thing is blue book is 13.5.

Or should I just go hog wild and sue nissan for damages?

This has been a headache.


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I assume you still have the full factory warranty, that said, keep your loaner until they fix your car to your satisfaction.

I took my 93 Mercedes to the dealer to have a window gasket installed and a detail. I wasn't satisfied with the detail job so I left the car there and drove back home with their 2015 e class loaner. I kept it for almost 3 weeks.

You are the customer, ie. The reason they are in business. Keep the loaner keys in your pocket until you drive your car around the block and are satisfied with the way it sounds.

Lemon law
 

Great points.

I called and he said a manager will call me back. Its now 5 pm.

They are totally just avoiding dealing with it. Lol. As I drive a $24k car around.

So I just tell them I'm not bringing the loaner back until it is fixed? Straight up? They wont report it stolen?

As per your suggestion, when i do go in. I will take the benz. And leave it idling while I go around the block (i can lock the column and doors). Let them hear what a proper car idles like. Ive been looking for an excuse to do that.

Btw, I have learned that nissan mechanics get paid 30% of book time on warranty work. Im sure there are some good ones. But it seems to be the bottom of the barrel as far as mechanics.

Im also thinking i should march everyone over to the used lot and listen to the versas.

Should I get in touch with the dealership owner? I tracked down his personal cell already.

Or the BBB?

Ok now the rental sounds funny. Lol. A lot like the versa. Not nearly as bad. But the idle lopes a little.

Our nissan just pos's?

Do i drive too hard for these cheaply made cars?

Here is a video of the rental. 2015 sentra. 22k miles (20k when I picked it up a week ago). What is that noise?

https://vimeo.com/129505450


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That should still be under original warranty that I believe is 36 months 50K miles on the powertrain. That may be out if the original owner did not perform regular maintenance according to their requirements. As stated earlier the lemon law is for one owner, and is applicable when the vehicle has been in to a dealer for repair for the same problem at least three times. Keep leaning on them as being a nice guy will get you nowhere. By the way are you a repeat customer to the lot that you purchased it from?

Lemon Law only applies to the original purchaser.

Lemon law
 

^been discussed three times already. As stated I didn't post this in open discussion.

^^ first time. First nissan.

At this point im playing hardball. Recording their used lot manager saying they don't make noise. Threatening lawyers. Saying they need to take it back.

But it helps to be reminded.

Now they just aren't talking. They have my car. I have their car. Which is twice the value. They are paying for the xm service etc. Mine is a stick, so I know they aren't loaning it out. I wrote down my mileage as well.

Its weird. They are totally ignoring the problem.

I just want this to be over. I need to head to Oregon, and might just go in their car if they don't call in 2 days.


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Send a certified letter of any questions, comments, etc. And keep a copy of the letter. Or send an email.....nothing like having hard evidence of a paper trail in the court of law.I'm sure Nissan's pockets might be a bit deeper than yours and so you need to start acting as though you will be facing a possible lawsuit for breach of contract or a counter suit from them.

There is a guy who writes over at Jalopnik who is a Lemon Law attorney. Might be worth a quick e-mail.

Tales From The Lemon Law Horror Story Archives

In general I think Nissan makes a solid product but I had a 2012 Altima for 2 years and 30k miles that was on its 3rd transmission. The day after the dealer replaced the CVT for the 2nd time it was traded on my wife's current Honda CR-V so I have no idea if it was finally fixed.

I don't understand why you are getting all worked up. You have a brand new car that you are driving for half the cost, free xm, and no penalty for mileage. If I where you:

Go on that road trip
Stop calling them
Enjoy the loaner car


If they are trying to avoid you, let them! You have the better end of the deal!

Lemon law
 

Yeah thats why the rental thing makes me nervous. I asked yesterday if I would get charged for it, and he said no way. (I record all conversations, on the phone and in person, and notify them). Technically they said to come get it saturday and I asked to speak to a manager.

Im just looking for solutions. I don't have time/energy to keep dealing with it, the whole point was a solution. Now its a problem. I can't be in the middle of working far away when Nissan decides its time to bring the rental back. Cant ignore them and have it reported stolen, totally unprofessional to have the cops take the car. Plus my headache and charges.

Ill check it out. Im reluctant to pay an attorney. I feel like $11,000 is hardly enough to justify one. Its gonna cost 10% at least Im sure.

Yeah I'm scared of that cvt. this 2015 sentra is shifting funny. Mine is a manual.

"Threatening attorneys" is a waste of your time, my dad is in the car business, everyone threatens one. No one has one. Hire one, or don't mention it.

Contact Nissan USA. The dealer isn't who would buy it back even if you were eligible for lemon law. That between you and Nissan USA. Also any warranty work is paid by Nissan USA to the dealer who makes money on the work. Its in the dealers best interest to do work they think Nissan will pay because its a profit center.

Call Nissan USA and don't waste your breath threatening someone who doesn't have much to give you.

In most states you can win back legal fees, and at least in Ohio in Car dealer lawsuits you are entitled to triple damages. If you really think you've got a case, hire an attorney, you'd get your money back.

Getting paid a percentage of book time on warranty claims is not a Nissan thing, its a car business thing. Friends at Porsche, GM, and Mercedes complain of the same thing.

Haven't had to have my attorney contact them yet. I simply mention its my next step if they don't take care of the problem. Awaiting a phone call regarding said issue.

Its purely incompetence. They want to fix it I'm sure. But it has upper end noise going on, and they put a short block in.

I guess thats my real question. Do I have a case? But as I wait, I assume they might be trying to fix it. Probably gonna call once it works.

I think they know I will contact Nissan, which looks bad on their part. Or at least I hope they are capable of that reasoning.

Do those others dealers make more than 30%? My understanding was yes, so the better guys go there. The technician on my car is a toothless wonder.

Lemon law
 

What could they sue me for exactly? Other than keeping their rental?

I hate this stuff. I think I will wait a few days. Then call Nissan direct. Then hand it off to my attorney.

Edit: last thought. Why would they just be ignoring this? Ive narrowed it down to:

They think i may be irrational and just forget and take my car back in a few days. Or they think I will end up wanting the sentra. Or trade mine in for one. Maybe I should ask about trading mine in. Pin them on saying my car is fine. If its so great, throw it on your used lot. No problem.

Maybe I'm looking for rationality where it doesn't exist. Do bat **** crazy people make it as far as running a dealership? Probably so...

the video you posted sounds like a normal sentra engine, the ticking you hear is the injectors clicking and also the lifters - I own a 2013 altima 2.5 - brand new off the lot car had this sound.

I also have a 134000 mile camry - very similar engine sound, I think it is loud because of the insanely thin castings these manufacturers are using while building engines, They resonate pretty bad.

The loud noise, cylinder misfire and eventual rod failure maybe related to the cat converter ceramic breaking up and being sucked back - which damages the cylinder walls and sometimes leads to complete engine failure, sometimes as soon as 4000 miles. Nissan built the EGR design into the cam variator pulleys which causes a negative pull from the exhaust into the cylinders - the same function an EGR valve does, except this time they saved all costs of EGR valves.

These engines also have had some oddball timing variator failures which causes them to rattle at startup and at mid range rpm. A stalled variator causes misfire codes.

In any case - your car is still under factory powertrain warranty, get them to fix it till its at "control specification" of Nissan itself.

Is it direct injected? If it is, that is the injector pump or injectors you're hearing. You should hear my saturn, damn thing sounds like a bucket of bolts. Brand new bmws I've driven sounded like a farm tractor. Either way I wouldn't threaten anything or act paranoid. Ask them what they are doing with your car and an expected completion date. It is all at no cost to you so who cares? Raising a huff makes it a thousand times worse and threatening an attorney even worse than that.


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Lemon law
 

If it wasn't for the light I would probably just call it a pos and drive it. But when that clicking starts, the idle becomes erratic, and slight power loss. I think you are onto something with the vvt. Both cars seem to be acting up. And yes its direct injection.

What is "stalled variator?" I completely understand how the cam phasing works. I had a theory that the pin in the device on the cam wasn't locking in. I should ask them to check the timing. Could you expand on this concept further?

As well, one solenoid (i mix the names up but the part that controls oil flow did throw a code and was replaced.

I should also say, text communication is hard and often messages are misunderstood. I grew up with my service writer, his brother is married to my cousins sister in laws niece, type of deal.

So the conversation is more like "dude what are we gonna do, if nissan can't fix it I'm gonna have to get lawyers involved."

Its more like two generals dealing with policy and decisions made by those above.

More of a reference to where it could head to. And stating I am not accepting their policy. And he can say "the customer is not cooperating and has mentioned seeking legal council"

But it is the truth. It may go that route. Although i may take them to court myself and avoid the cost.

See they arent fixing it. Said they cant or dont know what it is. There is no "completion of work date." That has passed. On saturday they said to come get it. I said let me talk to the manager. And now no one is calling or answering my calls.

Its fricking weird.

Lemon law
 

Just so we are clear. There is no expected completion date. Work was completed with saying they couldn't figure it out. They said come get it. I asked for a manager as I dont want it to go down that road. And they aren't communicating. Don't want their rental. Etc.

I need this resolved and passed. Our current solution would be keeping their rental until my warranty is up. Then i will have to fix it.

Hence why we need to stop avoiding the problem and deal with it now. Or buy the car back.

And hard ball is necessary at this point. I hate it too. But its the only way they wont try to push me around. Its a sad cold truth.

But do i have a chance/case for getting out of this thing? With nissan direct?

Not sure if you are interested in this or not but you could also get the car back and try to offload it to carmax. They buy used cars as if it's a trade without requiring you to buy a car from them.

Thats worth a try.

It just kind of worked out where once i had an extra set of wheels i had time for the benz. And it turned out better than i thought.

Talked to the manager this afternoon. He spoke to nissan about the misfire and they said nothing to do.

I brought up the noise. The scorched cylinder. The short block. How this is all connected.

He apologized and said that wasn't on his paperwork...

He really was sincere. I didnt cut them any slack. Didnt threaten anything. He said he will look through it. I asked him to just listen. And then go over to the used lot and listen to the others.

We shall see tomorrow. If they call.

Such an adventure.

I think i have a sour taste in my mouth, that may come clean if I get it back sounding better.

And it would be nice to be able to go through the body on my benz. But i could just pick up a cheap car to get by.

here is a small example of a variator than can stick/stall in certain positions - that worn area should be smooth like the rest of the steel plate.
http://www.yotarepair.com/Scanned%20...5-0552_IMG.JPG

As there is no spring pressure in the unit it solely relies on oil to advance and retard the unit it cannot be expected to snap back - This design is not like honda vtec to amp up the cam lift etc but more to the effect of reducing pumping losses at mid rpm

When this stalls/sticks you will get some real oddball misfires as there would be an awful lot of backwash into the intake manifold from the cylinders

I need to dig into the wiring/schema of Nissan to see how the ECU is determining the requierd cam phasing is achieved, I know it for toyota - their ECU rely on the cam/tdc sensor difference to determine a problem, if it sees an off TDC situation at idle - it pops the TDC code, which almost always is a stuck variator.

Fair enough, have to trust your judgment on the situation since I am just Monday morning quarterbacking.


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^lol sorry. Im a little fired up about the situation.

^^thanks so much. It did throw a misfire code but didn't throw a tdc code.

However, 2nd trip to dealer was a solenoid code, which was replaced. The problem was before this though. But there are possibly two problems, as #4 injector is definitely bad.

I think I'm gonna fire the benz up and go down there. We keep talking on the phone and its hard to communicate.

If the car is having problems with the variator, wouldn't the timing be jumping around irregularly?

This is beginning to be like my first initial thread on this forum when I blew my benz motor. "Help help what do i do!?"

One thing I'm thinking about. It burnt a rod and they put the same head back on. Would anyone ever do that? Is there a good chance other parts are damaged from the metal flowing around in the oil? It had a good rod knock.

I think I'm gonna call nissan and see how they respond to buying it back.

If that doesnt go well, contact a lawyer and see if they say I have a chance. And what their costs will be.

I dont want it. Lol.

Yes. My used car qualifies for lemon law in communist California. Im gonna wait and see if they fix it. And if no, don't buy a light grey versa S model from nissan santa barbara.

www.lemon-law-advisor.com/lemon-laws-for-used-cars.html

If your engine chewed a rod babbit and they slapped the old head back on without properly prepping it then there is a chance that some debris has found a new home.

In properly prepping the head is torn down to bits and pressure washed inside out.

Thanks. Thats what I'm worried about. Nissan is involved now. And the rep knows his stuff. He was surprised by the short block.

So another motor, this time a long block. And all new injectors. Since they can't test them. And the car has 14k miles. At the rate I drive thats three months. Lol.

But Im still shooting for a buy back.

In all fairness, no one is being dishonest. Just incompetent.

nissan cant test their injectors?

the rep will have a nice session with the service manager and hammer it home in his head that they can be tested.

If you were driving a w124 or w140 you wouldn't be in this mess in the first place :-) just an observation.

Lemon law
 

^Im in this mess because my MB diesel blew its motor. Then the axles, diff, brakes, on and on. Then the throw out fork busted. And I got tired of working on it. And didn't want to rely on it after pulling the tranny twice. But thanks for your support. Its a simple problem I could diagnose. But won't out of principle. I would still consider this new car more reliable than my old one. Plus, with the miles I put down, its hard to drive anything under 100k miles. Sometimes I'm out in the middle of nowhere with no service, and no one around to help. And this new car has not broken down. Have had a few walks when driving my benz. Once at night. That sucked.

^^That seems weird to me too. I will raise that point. Dealership called today. But its a long day. And I never got a chance to call back. Will call tomorrow. Fingers crossed. If they say they can't fix it I will contact nissan customer service. And not pick it up. Keeping my rental (another sentra). And seeing what we can do.

Lemon law
 

Edit: I shouldnt be rude. Its been a long day.

My point is that you would be hard pressed to find ANY car made today that can withstand the endurance of an older Benz. Yes, mine has broken down too, several times, but fix it and be on your way for another 20 years.

Lemon law
 

Totally agree. But, at 1000-1500 miles a week, I need one that just walked off the lot. Don't have the time or energy yet to put one back to that shape currently. I'm getting there. Running 450 lbs compression. Worried about my lift pump. And where the input shaft bearing on the tranny rides. Want to sleeve. My case is aluminum. But have zero time for this. May dump this one for another project. Not sure. But need a driver, tomorrow.

Lemon law
 

Edit: whatever.

I would be very cautious about what car you take when you go to pick up your "fixed" car.

I've heard horror stories about dealers seizing their car and simply handing you the keys to your car, probably still broken, and walking away. If you can go with a friend (witness) in friend's car, so they don't try any funny business, and make sure you are completely satisfied with their repair to your car before you bring their car back into any location where they can take control.

Also, as soon as your car is fixed, I would sell it, even at a loss, and get something else. Most new cars and even 5-year old cars are far far more reliable and safer than the 20-30 year old MB's that we drive. If you need reliable, there are many cars that are, so I wouldn't settle until you find one.

Lemon law
 

Why would I sell it exactly? (Serious question)

They are good guys. Just not the greatest at diagnosing stuff.

Evidence in the short block. When they could have started with an injector.