DO ALL W123 CARS HANDLE THIS BAD?
 

I recently purchased a 1978 280CE. It has 136,000 miles and I just put in new shocks. this thing handles worse than any car I have ever owned. Over steer galore. Body lean like I've never felt. really didn't want to spend $200 for new springs but maybe that's where I need to start. Any Help is appreciated.

You bought a 38 year old car, and are unhappy to spend $200 for new springs?
If this isn't a joke, sell the car now.

thanks for the help.

It should handle like a race car. You were obviously scammed and sold a defective vehicle.

Welcome to the forum and congrats on your 280CE! That's not a common car by any stretch of the imagination.

The W123 never handled like a Subaru BRZ, but if the handling is really sloppy, the 38-year-old suspension is probably shot and going to need a total refreshing if you want like-new handling. All the rubber is probably shot. The parts alone cost >$1,000.

BTW, your post might be taken more seriously if your post title wasn't comically misspelled and in all caps. Just a tip ;).

Where do you live? A member might be able to drive your car and give you an independent evaluation of how the car handles.

Might be the original shocks on there. No, that car model is supposed to be tight handling.

He specifically said that he just installed new shocks.

What other cars have you owned?

What shocks did you use?

What's the condition of the rest of the car (at least we know you have new shocks)?

Unless you have service records which document the number of miles on the car there is a good chance the car has more miles than the odometer shows. W123 odometers are prone to failure and unfortunately there are those you have no problem with switching out speedometers. You might also want to double check the installation of the shocks. Mis-installed shocks will make the car ride like a truck. Also an easy and inexpensive fix are the rear sway bar links.

The answer is no
 

The W123 can be predictable and neutral in handling and steering.

My coupe is an 83 300CD. There are minor weight differences but basically it is the same chassis and suspension as yours. The coupes have a shorter wheelbase than the sedans and should handle a little differently, meaning better.

You do not need springs. You need to get under the car and carefully inspect all of the suspension and steering components front and rear. Anything that moves in directions it shouldn't, any deteriorated rubber bushings and boots must be replaced. Remove and check your steering stabilizer.

Check your steering play. These cars have recirculating ball steering than can never be a crisp as rack and pinion. The MB spec is 1" or less of play at the steering wheel rim. DO NOT try to tighten it up with the adjustment bolt on the steering box. That is for another purpose. You will find that after you replace your steering bushings and joints, the steering play will be improved.

Replacing the shocks was a good starting point unless you bought some sort of JC Whitney junk. A surprising number of undercar stuff can be easily replaced DIY. After it is all done get an alignment and you should be good.

One more thing, tires. Bad tires can make the car feel terrible. If they are bald or mismatched replace them for your own safety.

This may seem a lot but you have a rare and desirable car that is worth some effort and investment. I promise you that tightening up all your old undercar stuff will reward you with a car that feels as though it is on rails. I also have a 2008 MB and my old coupe is the one I like best.

On a car that old, pretty much everything is suspect. Shocks you say are new, but did you use the good ones (Bilstein)? Time to start inspecting suspension items. Rubber parts are probably not in good shape if they're original. Sway bar end links are another thing to look at. Spring failures are less common, but have occurred. A broken sway bar (or two) is another unlikely but possible thing.

These aren't sports cars, but when properly sorted they do handle much better than most American cars of that era.

He said springs, not shocks. If it were me, I would have replaced the shocks far before replacing the springs.

No, it's shocks.

After 30+ years, you can safely assume that anything made out of rubber will need replacing unless, of course, replaced recently. All wear items do in fact wear out. The parts for a MB W123s are pretty cheap compared to newer cars. You can replace entire systems on the cheaps ... which is what I suggest. I never owned a gasser MB, so no clue about them except those parts in common with diesels. Do some market research on components, and pricing. The W123 is not everyone's cup of tea. I got hooked on the W123 back in 2008. Nearing the end of the project so to speak, so it's a hobby for some, other's a DD, and other's just a passing episode in car ownership.

To all that have contributed positive suggestions, I thank you.

Grezzer: Yes it is just a hobby. I've always liked the body lines of a coupe. It's just a part time car and a learning experience for me. Thanks.

Skippy: I did use Bilsteins and yes the rubber components look pretty bad. I am committed to a full rebuild to save this car. It has no rust and the interior is decent. I'll focus first on the sway bars.

Rocky Raccoon: Steering play, while not perfect, doesn't seem to bad. I'll get it dialed in to handle much better and I'll be in your camp at some point.

BWhitmore: Have no documentation. Bought totally blind. But I'm OK with that. I'll try and research the history a little, thanks.

Mbeige: I have owned a couple of Jettas, a beloved 1988 911 with suspension rebuild, an Audi A6 Quattro with suspension upgrade, and I now have a 2002 Bmw 540i with a 6sp and full suspension rebuild and almost 200k on the clock. Great road car BTW.

This rebuild will continue and I'm sure with the help of this and other fourms will be a great learning experience. Thanks again, everyone.

Looks like you have a taste for suspension rebuilds. A W123 in stock (and old) condition can never equivalently compare to any of those cars.

Don't be so surprised about the W123 - it was designed in the 70's with a balance of comfort and road handling (for its time). Remember that the car came originally with long-travel but soft suspension, this typically gives it the grip by way of having contact despite the body roll.

Good choice on the Bilsteins - which type did you get?

I installed the standard bilsteins. I just tonight set the timing to 2 degrees advanced versus 0 degrees, and it seems to run better. Just checked my first tank of gas and got a disappointing 15.8 mpg. I have a rural commute of 34 miles round trip. Thanks for the comments. I'm 62 years old and can remember the old suspensions. I'd still consider something radical like a 1" drop with some H&R springs but I don't see them for sale other than in the UK for $500. Again thanks for your comments. We have the same color too.

Paul:

These cars handled acceptably when new, but had lots of body roll. I test-drove a couple of 123s when new, thinking that I'd like to buy one, walked away disappointed. To compare to other cars of its day I would say that its handling was similar to a Volvo GL sedan, a Volvo GLT would run circles around it. The 123 did have fairly neutral handling, predictable, but the body roll was IMO excessive. Still, once it settled into a turn it stuck pretty well. It was not a car to flog through a tight road course. The Audi cars of the time also cornered flatter, I bought a quattro instead (just introduced, about the same price, wish I kept it). If you wanted a Mercedes that would handle at the time you bought an AMG (Hammer!), at that time a separate company.

My other reason for not liking the 123 at the time was the standard seats, I used to describe them as having one spring in the middle, and the entire seat cushion would tilt and rock beneath you as you drove. This also is normal.

The following two things can happen

1) All of the rubber parts on the suspension are rotted and dead
2) Cheap alignment places often do not get the job done correctly


It is not uncommon to find W123s that handle like the "Good ship Venus" but look at the design => It is a nice design and can be made to make it feel a little bit more like you're driving on rails (not the sleepers). Saying that you'll not get the handling of a Mazda MX5...

The W123 (and W126 though less-so) are not exactly "track ready" cars in terms of their handling....its like driving a ship. Going between my W126 and my W201/203/210 is night and day in terms of handling. But the old ones have a road presence missing in the newer models.

Stretch: I agree totally. Will keep at it.

The coupe is a bit lighter in the rear than a sedan I believe (I have owned a CD and lots of 240s and 300s). the 280 is heavier than any of the diesel engines I think so that might contribute to the rear acting loose. And you did not mention tires. Tires are a huge part of good handling.

Yeah, the 123 will lean a lot but it will corner. I autocrossed one for a year and a half. The handling should be pretty neutral and it will corner hard once you get it leaned over if shocks suspension and tires are sound. I had h and r lowering springs on my 280e euro that I autocrossed and it did not help all that much because the sway bars are pretty soft. Good luck finding the springs and the after market sway bars are not available that I ever found for a 123.

Its not a sports car but it is a very competent family luxury sedan which will treat you right in an emergency situation.

I don't want you to get addicted to another hobby but have you tried a W124? The multi-link rear suspension was supposed to improve on the w123's semi-trailing sway arms. I've driven both but not aggressively. Both have long suspension travel, which is an MB trademark. But the W124's rear wheels do not turn in when cornering.

What tires are you using? That has an impact too.


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I have driven the W123 and I have a W124. Great on the highway, not so good on curvy back roads. The suspension is very good but the steering is not. It's heavy and slow and turn-in takes an big armful of wheel. I feel a faster ratio steering box with fewer turns lock-to-lock would make these cars perfect. Or even better, rack & pinion....

I replaced the front shocks on my 280ce with standard Bilstein's, rather disappointing, the Bilstein's on my 300cd are much stiffer, much more satisfying handling and smooth enough ride. There are stiffer Bilstein's available for these chassis. One other thought, find a W123 "Touring", i.e. "wagon" parts car, "re-purpose" the front swaybar, it's larger diameter...

I have noticed a massive difference between standard and HD shocks too

When I was still working and used my W123 300D as my work car, putting on 800+ km/week, I had a shop install new shocks. The guy was a great MB mechanic, but also a racing guy - mostly bikes. He decided to put heavy duty shocks on my car. I noticed right away the much harsher ride, especially on some of our rough local roads. I put the standard Bilsteins on my 350SL and it now feels like a modern car - smooth as silk. That is what I prefer - no narrow windy mountain roads to navigate here. Just smooth straight highways mixed with not so good rural roads.

When our 300D was much newer, it would drive as if on rails. Probably the best of the cars we owned at the time. But now, like Paul Lefebre, the car feels loose on the road and has harsh ride over bumps.

I need to check the steering/suspension linkages for wear (Have probably been replaced just once in 440k km). I suspect new front sub-frame mounts would make a difference to ride. On my 350Sl they made a big difference. Need to check front wheel bearings for play too. All when I get time. But at least the old girl IS on the road and my daily driver of choice once again :)

Finally Paul - Seems trivial, but check your tire pressures. Set them exactly according to the numbers on the fuel fill flap. Too high a pressure on my front tires makes the car feel like it is "floating"!

Body roll makes me question the anti sway components. Are the links good?

Plastic ones on the back do break - and there's a "feeling" the early metal ones (on the W123 / W114./5) are better. I dunno for sure though...

The HD Bilstein experience I have had was very jiggly on cobbled / paved roads but better on tarmac. The other "comfort" shocks didn't notice the cobbles.

(So the two nuns riding down a cobble road on bicycles joke didn't apply with the comfort shocks)

Now, Now. Keep the party clean :rolleyes:

When I was driving a 300cd the single greatest improvement to handling occurred when I replaced the sway bar bushings on the firewall.

Just to get it out of the way everything in the suspension on a 38 year old car probably needs to be replaced. It will undoubtedly handle better if you do the bushings, end links, ball joints, wheel bearings, and springs. That said it is also a 38 year old luxuary car. Its also one of the last Mercedes with semi trailing arm rear and a suspension designed around bias ply tires. When new it was supposed to be soft and its not going to compare to a 911 or E39 without modification.

If it were a w124, W201, or 107 I'd know what to use from the merc parts bin to make it a bit sportier. Like anything though I'm sure you can get some larger wheels (16") for less sidewall, cut stiffer springs with big sways from a heavier car with similar suspension, and go with bilstein HDs which is essentially what I've done to my 124. One possible source of parts that comes to mind is the W126 (someone who knows better should chime in). I'm sure there is info out there.

To answer your question in your title you do have your work cutout for you. I'm normally not a fan of it when people say "you bought a Mercedes not a Corvette" but my dad had NA 300D 123 when I was a kid and they do move around a lot.

Actually, the W123 never came with bias-plys, and the semi-trailing arm suspension debuted on the W116, which again did not come with bias-plys.

I did not know that. I thought they still used bias ply at the time the w123 was designed. Either way it has a relatively old style suspension design with big sidewalls. Semi trailing arm was done away with after the 123, 107, and 126 when everything moved to multi link which is around when Mercedes entered a new era IMO and design philosophy changed.

It's been a long while since I checked my thread and I thank all that have contributed.

The project has kind of stalled but think I will just replace pretty much everything underneath. I don't think the parts prices are that bad. I'll do the labor. The car is just an around town kind of thing. I'm not looking for a show winner, just a cool ride.

The paint cleaned up pretty well for a cheap repaint. The headlight doors kind of detract from a clean look and damn are the expensive and hard to find.

The driver's seat will be high on the list to re-work the stuffing and get some support under me. I think just fixing the seat will make the car feel not quite so loose.

Does anyone have a thought on removing the front and rear glass? They are both original and the seals are pretty beat up from the sun.

Anyway, thanks all for the thoughts on the handling issues.

Paul: Sent you a PM