Enviro-safe ES12a
 

Has anyone had any experience with Enviro-safe ES12a? It claims to be a safe and easy alternative to freon. Here is their website address:
http://www.autocool-refrigerants.com/

Now this - this is the stuff Larry keeps warning y'all about. It's hyrdrocarbons - you know, the same kind of thing thats in the gas bottle of that grill on your back porch. I don't know the exact compostion of this one, but they're all basically 60% propane and 40% isobutane (or variants).

It's illegal to use this in your car - the EPA has not approved it. It is very flammable. It certainly poses some risk, though I don't know how much. Frankly, I'm surprised to see it for sale.

Oh yeah, it does work OK too. I remember reading some comments on the alternative refrigerants board that the hydrocarbon blends cool pretty well, up to a point. They didn't seem to do great in very hot climates, but for places where temperatures don't rise above ~95F, most users seemed satisfied.

My advice is to follow Monty Python's advice - run away, run away!

Larry will be along shortly to affirm this message.

Before purchasing an alternative refrigerant, consider the information at this WEB site:

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/buying.html

There have been numerous posts here that these alternative products contain propane/butane or some derivative. Unfortunaltely, in many cases, this is not true. There are WEB sites available that list their content. Some do contain the aforementioned flammables; most do not.

A good number contain a large percentage of R-134A + some topping off of R-142B(one example).

They are not all illegal, but do require special handling and fittings.

If you want to learn more about this sort of thing, go to the trouble of obtaining a 609 certification and studying info at the EPA WEB site.

In the end, R-134A is as cheap as it gets and you do not need certification in most parts of the U. S. for this product.

just think of the consequences if you have a leak in your AC system. With that much flammable liquid in the system, there is a chance of something going BOOM.

I would be weary of using something like this especially if I had a leak or was unsure. I wouln't want to have to explain to the insurance that the car just blew up.

Now if the system is in good order, why not just recharge it with R12 or R134A if ti has been so equipped.

Alon

It should be noted that R134a is very flammable as well.
I have an open mind, but I am not convinced that this particular property is a good reason to disqualify HC-based refrigerants.

I looked pretty closely at this stuff when I decided to replace the compressor in my 107 (yet another diy job that I haven't gotten to yet....) and this is what I found:

Like a previous poster stated, the EPA does consider the blend to be flamable. (Now why R134 is not considered flamable by the EPA when it has a LOWER flash point is beyond me). I looked to see if this blend was approved for use in other countries with safety laws similar to ours, and I couldn't find any.

The company is able to play a bit fast and loose with the facts IMO because it is ILLEGAL to use this stuff in a system designed for R12. However, if the system has been converted to use R134, it may be used as a replacement (not a drop in replacement mind you, but a replacement after evacuating all the R134). The web site keeps saying that the stuff cools better than R12, but when its time to talk replacement they only mention R134.

Finally, individual states are permitted to adopt stricter laws than the EPA. In some states its illegal to put any hydrocarbon refrigerant into a motor vehicle. I found cases where Louisiana was fining people who sold Envirosafe b/c its use was illegal there. My state (Virginia) is the same way.

Anyway, after toying around with the idea of using it, I decided not to. I accept the company's claims that its a better refrigerant than R134, and at first I was willing to give them a shot on the flamability issue. But I just didn't feel like dealing with the fact that no one could service the system. I decided to stay w/ good ol' R12.

My .02 FWIW

What about RB-276?
 

I read the stuff they had on their web and it sounds convincing. Of course right now when I tried to access it again it didn't work...but I am sure the site will be up and working soon again

Anybody familiar with it?

Freezone RB276 alternative

FWIW, I have it successfully running in another car:

http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=664882&highlight=ES12

Some notes here:

http://www.aircondition.com/wwwboard/alternative/current/7348.html

A lot of older Porsche 911 enthusiasts are also running.

I more concerned about 16+ gallons of 93-octane fuel than less than 24-oz. of an iso-butane mix . . .

:-) neil

old post
 

Wow, can't believe this post is still alive. Wish I still had my 300D...

There is of course also the possiblity that the Federal Government is not always giving us the truth and nothing but the truth. There is big money and politics at play in these things.

ES-12 has a flashpoint of 1000F. Not sure that is as much of a problem. Gasoline's flashpoint is -40F, autoignition at 475F.

So I don't think that is a problem...

Flashpoint I believe is the temp that the liquid will turn to vapor and Ignition temp. is how hot it has to be to ignite..
When using Duracool to replace R12 ... 6 oz is equivilant to 17 oz of R12.. So I may have 1.5 to 2 lbs of it in my car and a fuel tank with 20 gal of gasoline..I fail to see the hazard of using it..
Also R134 is tough on some kinds of hose.. it also produces Hydroflouric acid when moisture is present with it..

Propane and iso-butane work. I mixed my own and my vent temps range from 38-55 degrees depending on outside temps and car's speed. Anything under 90 I get 45 degrees and on hotest day so far I was still getting 55 degrees. Used torch propane gas $2.38 and MSR iso-butane camping stove fuel from outdoors store. 4oz $5.50s. Less than $8. Cheaper and better for environment than R12.

Understand that I am the only one that works on my car. And car is never been sold in one piece again.

Just my experience. I tried ES12A in my 84 500SEL and was never able to get it to cool any better than 134. I sent E-mail to Envirosafe and they said it was because I evacuated the system before I charged it. If I wanted to evacuate then I should use ES12 Industrial. I let all the ES12A out and charged it starting at NO vacuum and it still didn't work any better. I did a deep evacuation, recharged with Freeze 12 and all is good again. I admit it takes a while for it to start cooling but is acceptable in NC. I have Freeze 12 in my 91 300D and it works OK there also. I'm sorry but I can't justify $600 to $800 for a 30 lb cyl of R12, or $45 to $50 for a 12 oz can. That is the going price here in NC. I know you can get it cheaper in Tex but that is probably because you are closer to the Mexican border.
Paul

How low were your temps on eviro safe-12a?

es-12a
 

just installed in my1991 129 500sl 12 oz of es-12a on 98F outside temp center outlet temp 38 F. It seems problems are from over charging as it only takes 1/3 the amount as r-12. I'm cool now!!
jrs500sl