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R-12 Air Conditioning
There is lots of confusing and conflicting info out there about how to handle cars with R12 refrigerant. At $50-60/lb, R12 is no longer an economically viable option for those of us with older cars. Conversion to R134 can require changing a lot of parts including compressor, drier, expansion valve, and pressure switch. This hardware amounts to about $400 on a DIY basis. This does not include flushing the condensor and evaporator and recharging. Maybe another $200 if done by a shop.
Then there's Hot Shot which you can buy at Kragen and the like. But it contains R22 which contains many bad things for your system. Or you can try Enviro-Safe ES-12A. This stuff appears harmless expect it contains flammable ingredients and thus has not been approved by the EPA. (Worried about possible fire or explosion, particularly in an accident.) But you can buy Enviro-Safe without an EPA certificate. Then there's Freezone (RB276) which appears to be perfect but requires an EPA certificate and is only available in 25# (about $220) containers. (An EPA certificate can be gotten for $20 and some testing hassle via the internet but not really a big deal.) Although against EPA regulations, both RB276 and ES-12A are compatible with R12 and thus could be added without purging the system. I am told many mechanics do it. But the EPA says you can't mix refrigerants. My preference would be to go with the RB276 if I could find someone who would sell and/or install it in a small quantity. My second preference would be to use the ES-12A which costs about $50 for enough for probably 2 chargings plus an adapter hose. That would beat spending $100 plus a year for the R12. I haven't heard about many cars blowing up using the stuff! As far as the EPA is concerned, their heart may be in the right place, but after the MTBE gas additive fiasco I personally think you do your own research and go from there. Any comments from those using RB276 Freezone or Enviro-SAfe AS-12A or anything else would be appreciated. 1980 240D 252500 miles Other than the A/C, a cream puff. |
I have two cars that need to be recharged and would REALLY appreciate any info on using the EnviroSafe as a replacement. I ran out of R12 last year and dont need to spend money buying it.
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Gents,
I had the same issue and converted my 190E to R-134A four years ago. I changed the drier at that time and then evacuated the system for about two hours. Recharged the system normally with R-134A and two cans of oil charge for R-134A. It's been fine since. There does seem to be some small loss of efficiency but the A/C seems to work well. At $4 / pound it's a lot more cost effective and it's readily available. |
R-12 is coming down in price as the number of conversions of old systems increases (and some of the old cars die off) and demand decreases. I paid $15/12 0z. can for multiple cans last Saturday. Typically I'll use Duracool or Envirosafe (actually I mix my own propane/iso-butane...eh, close enough) as a "test" on an older car with an R-12 system. Pressure tests, leak tests, fan performance can all be checked with the HC and the system totally verified. Then I can barbeque with the HC and do the "final" charge with R-12.
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john mcneil
What is the proper procedure [in detail] to convert my 89 420sel to 134?
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Although we convert cars every week and haves done hundreds of them, I personally give the advice to leave it R12.
It confuses me the talk of having anything else be more efficient (money wise). R12 at $60 a pound is still the cheapest component (at list price) of almost all pieces of the system. The way people talk its as is this was a constant problem. Since I can't imagine someone just adding refrigerant to a leaking system, I have this problem understanding the problem. I approach every A/C job with the concept that this is the last time it will ever be worked on. A/C units work for years. Repaired ones should do the same. The fact that R12 may be totally unavailable someday will not make that repaired A/C work any less. Today, with current availability of R12, the price of the gas charge has risen to the bottom of the component list. Freon appears to have stabilized in price and I have no problem buying it (except capital outlay). From the experience of all these conversions I can give a few conclusions after ten years. Under most conditions the use of R134a will cause an old compressor to leak in as little as a year and probably 50% will leak by three years. New compressors will last 50-75% of previous intented life. This means some failures within a couple years and significant ones after 3-4 years. I attribute this to heat, pressure, and small efficiency loss which causes more on time. Cars A/Cs deminish in efficiency over time. Coating occur on both heat exchangers inside and out. Unless a system is kick-axx I avoid conversion. I have had many, many people tell me their A/C was never as good before I converted them. I always believe the case is that they don't remember when their A/C performed properly and the 5% lack of efficiency is inconsequential to this condition. A mediocre A/C that is being worked on for a leak, shouldn't be converted. Fixing the leak won't make the system any better, just full. Putting 134 in will probably be noticed. |
WELL STEVEBFL YOU DEFINITELY CONVINCED ME TO FIX THE LEAK AND STAY WITH R-12
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Well, last summer, Steve already had me thinking hard against r134 conversions. I was at NAPA yesterday and asked their r12 price. It is 29.50 per can, and requires a 609, of course.
After I have been through converting some systems, I now wish I had left them R12. As a matter of fact, I am currently flushing the a/c in my old truck (78 Ford that I bought new,) to change BACK to r12. This is a unique case because it has a york compressor that will just not cut it at all with r134. I am flushing EVERYTHING, replacing compressor and filter drier and charging with r12 and UV die. If a leak turns up, I don't want to be forced to waste r12 for a UV die charging. The dye will already be in there. Changing back may be a no-no, but it's that, or change to a Sanden compressor system and spend $700 or so. I shudder to think about converting a Benz back to R12, but I might end up doing it. Wish me luck, |
Try Autozone......R-12 ... $14.99 for 12oz. cans. Call first (few stores have it).
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Wow! $14.99 per can? I never thought I would ever be excited at this price, but this is great.
I plan on getting my 609 in the next few weeks and I think I have a leak in the truck a/c. I flushed everything yesterday, replaced all o-rings using nylog on them. I suspect a leak, and I plan on finding it, fixing it and recharging. I managed to get the dye in and enough r12 to get 60 degrees at the vents. I will check it again next weekend. If it has not leaked, I will charge it the rest of the way. If it has a leak I will get out the UV light and start the next chapter of the project. $14.99, Wow, |
Good choice - good job!
Have a great day, |
IMHO, the only proper way to convert a W124 from R12 to R134a is to change out the condenser to the R134a specific one, *and* change from a single aux. fan, to the double fan used in the R134a ones, as well as dryer/receiver and expansion valve. Also use only PAG oil.
We did the above to our 1988 wagon, and get's plenty cool for trips to Las Vegas. :-) neil |
I had not thought of that. The 124 was, in later years, supplied with an R134 system from the factory. This means you should be able to bolt in a condensor from one of these cars. This is the way to regain lost capacity when changing to 134.
Good tip, thanks, |
The R134a specifc condenser is just half the story, you *need* to change to DUAL aux. fans for the proper airflow (don't forget the ballast resistor and a relay- almost double the current of the single aux. fan).
Also, you'll need to change the vertical bar where the horns mount as well as the powersteering cooler which takes a different route to clear the dual motors of the aux. fans. The R134a condenser will need to have a custome hose made (about $75) due to different connectors as well as having a R134a service port installed. I'll post pictures soon. :-) neil 1988 360TE AMG 1993 500E |
All the solutions discussed here have been R12 to R134. What about the two "alternatives" to R12 that were posted in the first post that are supposed to be 100% compatible.
I also notice they both say "vacuum system out. Dont charge under vacuum!" How does one go about not charging under vacuum? Certainly you dont relieve the vacuum with air... |
In California, very few if any shops will deal with anything but R12 or R134a. In fact, in California, shops are required to have a tester that looks for contamination BEFORE servicing.
These blends really wreck havoc to the reclaimation/recycling required by the State of California. Don't know about elsewhere. :-) neil |
I mean... from the websites for the EnviroSafe E-12 and the RB276 sound like god's gift to the world. I'm sure theres some downwides. My AC systems will never be pumped out or reclaimed, so I'm not worried about that.
They state it cools the same or better, has lower pressures, cheap, ect. sounds perfect. I'm hoping someone can shed some light as I currently have no R12 available cheap and no AC in either of my two current cars. (I'm NOT gonna pay $60/lb for 2.83 lbs in my volvo) I was almost considering a big bottle of the envirosafe IF someone can tell me if its really as good as it seems. Thanks Matt |
The Canadian government does not endorse Hydrocarbon refrigerants such as Enviro-safe nor do they prohibit their use.
I also read some stuff out of Australia that recommends the expansion valve be placed in the engine compartment on new cars. Nowhere have I read of any dire consequences actually occurring from using this stuff. I am still looking. If there was anything more than a very minor risk I am sure there would be evidence of it on the internet including case histories. The stuff has been around now for several years and is being made by at least two manufacturers here in the U.S. I intend to give it a try when I return from a trip in about 3 weeks. |
car54,
Yes, anyone with "snake oil" to sell ALWAYS says something to the effect that it is "God's gift to humanity." There are many problems with these "oils." They cause problems for the recyclers who as a group are serving to keep r12 available to us longer, these "oils" often are blends of two or more components that leak off at different rates. This means that if you get a leak, the only way you can get it right again is by completely removing the "oil" and recharging again from scratch. You don't have to pay $60 per pound for R12 any more. With a 609 certificate, R12 can now be had for as little as $15 per pound. Please research and think long and hard before usind the snake oil. I have been where you are now in your thinking. With R12 prices decreasing, I am totally rethinking this whole thing. As a matter of fact, I changed my '78 Ford 4X4, that I bought new, BACK to R12 this past weekend. I had changed it to r134 a few years ago and the York compressor just couldn't cut it with the stuff. I recommend that you continue your research and thinking before taking the messy step toward alternative refrigerants. Good luck, |
I basically agree with the R12 crowd now that R12 seems to be coming down in price. I converted my 300E to R134a two years ago when R12 was going up in price and people were predicting that you soon would not be able to get it at all.
I converted because of: a. The dire predictions about R12 and its expense. b. My compressor, manifold pipe and dryer needed to be replaced, so all I was out for the conversion was a new Schraeder valve and the two sensors. c. The lower cost of the R134a offset the additional parts. I did not change the condensor or the fan. I have been satisfied with the performance. It is comfortable when driving, but I would not recommend it to someone who leaves their car in the sun in heat and humidity on a regular basis. It just doesn't get as cold as R12. And besides, I enjoy playing AC technician once a year with my can of R134a, my guage, and my collection of connectors. BTW - the PO of my '73 280C converted that system to R134a, and it works very well, actually better than the 300E. :-) |
I desperately need some R12 for my system. I have researched the various angles of the conversion, and I do not see any possible benefit to the environment of venting my remaining R12 into the atmosphere just so I can replace it with R134. Unfortunately, the state of Colorado does not agree, and it can not be purchased in this state.
Can anybody out there (maybe Larry with his $15 per pound connection) help me out with purchasing some R12? I just need a pound or two, and it will save me the great expense of driving to another state. Thank you for any help. |
I expect that you CAN legally purchase R12 in Colorado as long as you have a 609 certificate. You can go online and take the OPEN BOOK test for $15. Then you can purchase R12 online or at your local auto parts. This is a national law, I expect that it applies in every state.
Where it IS illegal to purchase R12 is if you do not have the certificate. It would be a violation of federal law for me or anyone to sell you R12 unless you have the 609 certificate. Good luck, BTW, the $15 is not a special deal for me. Auto Zone is selling it for this price (to 609 certificated people of course) if you can find a store that has it. |
I think I'm beating a dead horse but I have a comment and a question. Yesterday I had my '89 300E in the shop to get the AC working. I knew going in that I would bite the bullet and pay for the R12 but when I picked the car up, I talked with the owner and he spent a lot of time telling me that he has done conversions in the past on many cars but has stopped and will not do any more. He does not do them for all the reasons mentioned in the previous posts. If I didn't know better, I'd swear I was talking to Stevebfl..............
My question.....2 summers ago, I had a leak that was repaired. The AC worked fine all summer and last summer but was blowing cold air this year. The shop that charged it yesterday pressure tested it and put dye in the system and everything looks great. If I'm losing all R12 in 2 years I must have a leak????? Any ideas where I could have a leak that is so miniscule that it doesn't show up in a pressure test and wouldn't be visible ???? |
Steve B could certainly teach New England mechanics a thing or two about AC. :-)
Did he check the condensate from the evaporator, and use a sniffer at the air vents? If you still have the aluminum evaporator, you may be looking at the beginning of the standard W124 troubles. There are a ton of posts on this. |
Larry,
Thank you so much for the advice. I had no idea it was so easy to become certified, and I didn't know that the stuff was even sold in this state. To make a long story short, I became certified this afternoon and bought 1 1/2 lbs of R12 at a total cost of $60. I charged the system and it blows frigid air. I forgot just how nice that A/C system is when it is working. Looks like I will be able to tolerate the rest of the summer. Thanks a million, |
The EPA 609 test is a joke! I cant believe it!
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Contrary to what some think, having a 609 certification WILL NOT guarantee that you can buy R-12 in just any area of the U. S.
Some states and municipalities have additional restrictions. In these cases, you more or less have to be employed in the field and must be able to prove it. No point in going after one if it's not going to fly in your area. If it does and you believe R-12 is superior to R-134a for systems that were designed for R-12, go for it. |
Mike,
Thanks for the information. There are sites that will ship the R12 to you as long as you provide legitimate 609 certification information. I don't know if this works on the areas you talk about or not. My $0.02, |
Larry:
I believe you're in the Dallas, Tx. area. I "think" you're ok. Austin, Tx(tree-hugger colony) will not allow R-12 sales with only a 609, at least that's the way it was a few yrs. ago. Wisconsin won't allow R-12 sales in 12 oz. cans according to what I read the other day. It wasn't stated as such, but it sounds as though you could buy the 30 lb. cyls. They're now going for around $750-$800. I suppose the thinking here is how many diyers are going to unload that kind of $$$. Many parts of southern Calif. also have additional restrictions. Some areas, though not many, will not allow the sales of R-134a over the counter to diyers. It's been determined that R-134a is harmful to the environment as well...so some say. The $15 Auto Zone R-12 came up the other day. I ended up calling every one where I live and none had it. Most all of the AZ employees I talked with over the phone said Auto Zone would no longer sell R-12, but that's where I live. Perhaps AZs in other areas have it for $15. I just got done searching the WEB and found one place that sells 12 can cases of R-12 for $288. That's $24 a can + some sort of shipping fee. I've bought refrigerant over the WEB B4 and as you say, all it required was a faxed copy of a drivers lic. and 609. I suspect people living in areas with additonal restrictions would be disallowed web purchasing capabilities?? I may grab a case of this $24 a can juice. Local prices are $28-$36 a can and I plan on keeping my old R-12 cars for many yrs. to come. A local shop owner told me the other day that around the yr. 2006, Carbon Dioxide would replace R-134a. Things keep getting more & more interesting by the day. Have a good one. |
It just makes me sick. I saw an auction for some old cans of R12 on ebay, and noticed the original $1.45 price sticker on the cans. The auction was for three cans and was at $55.00, for somthing that was originally $1.45. GRRR:mad:
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If they are old enough to have that price tag, they are probably 14 oz. cans instead of 12 oz. cans as typically seen now. It's really interesting to see what is called a one pound can having only 3/4 pounds inside.
I remember in the seventies it was very common to see R12 cans at Target or KMart for $.59 each. I wouldn't let my blood pressure get out of control over this. It's only your congress at work, coupled with good ol' supply and demand free enterprise at work. It beats socialism by a country mile. Have a great day, |
My understanding is the change from R12 to R134a was because DuPont's patent on R12 was over, and DuPont lobbied hard to get R12 banned in the USA (it's still used in other countries like Mexico) and offerred R134a instead.
The pharmaceutical companies are basically doing the same thing once a patent runs out, and generics are on the horizon. They'll lobby hard to keep their marketplace by releasing basically the same drug but with slightly different chemistries (e.g., slow release, etc.) and lobbying hard to the Doctor's office including loads of free samples. The WallStreet Journal had a good article about 2-weeks ago. They'll even begin filing for patent's for any variation so that genrics are even harder to produce. It's one reason why generics aren't widely available for the "designer" drugs, and Health Care Insurance for these drugs have gone up in premiums. :-) neil 1988 360TE AMG 1993 500E |
I've heard the BS Patent stuff. If you will read Al Gore's book you will get another slant on this issue from the standpoint of an environmental extremist fanatics view point. I personally don't believe that Dupont had squat to do with it. The product, after all, was continuing to make a profit. Why would anyone want to do away with a product that is making profit.
For those who may not understand how the manufacturing world works, large capital expenditures are made with the idea of being a long term investment. Once this money is invested, very little of it can be recovered to put into other ventures. Factories are built, large equipment and process investments are made and if the product is halted, the investment in equipment and development cannot be fully regained. Actually during the twilight years of a products life cycle, it is often very profitable because R&D costs as well as initial equipment and process installation costs have been recovered, so there is more margin to play with. This is a situation where one political group tries to blame it on another. It's just like a fanatic to do something fanatical but try to deflect the bad part of the effect on someone else. Have a great day, |
check this out now
I have been following these debates so the freon issue has been on my mind. There is a place down the street from where I worked that went out of business after 90 years. They sold and repaired construction equipment. Now, the liquidation sale is going on. I have been lucky enough to get the following deals:
a) Dupont Freon 12 for $15/can. b) Delo 400 $3/gallon. I got 12 gallons at this price. c) Snap On diesel compression tester with all kind of different adapters $20. d) Dewalt side grinder $20. They are supposed to get another shipment in next week. The Delo 400 at $3/gallon goes the fastest :):). |
Well, I just picked up a new, unopened 30lb cylinder of Dupont R12 for just under $17/lb, and a new Mac tools R12 gauge manifold set for $60. I'm all set for many years. thanks.
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I bought some R-12 off Ebay the other day for $30 a pound. This seller never even asked for my EPA cert (wasn't an official auction; I contacted him directly). Apparently he lives near/on the Mexico border and is importing it there where it looks like it is still being packaged or sold. I'm not sure if this is reclaimed or virgin Freon, but based on the condition of the cans, this stuff was recently bottled.
The only catch is that the Freon is being put into R-134a-type cans. (top is not R-12 tap adaptable). Now the question is how do I get this stuff into my R-12 system. :D http://www.members.aol.com/pmizelll/freon1.jpg http://www.members.aol.com/pmizelll/freon2.jpg http://www.members.aol.com/pmizelll/freon3.jpg ~Paul |
Paul:
The end of your R-134a tap that connects to the Schraeder valve likely will not connect to an R-12 Schraeder valve. I see from your photos that this product was made in Mexico. It's quite likely you were sold R-134a and charged an R-12 price. I'll bet the EPA would like to talk to the guy who sold you this product. E-bay unfortunately is a breeding ground for unscrupulous people. |
Paul,
Piece of cake! Buy one of those R-134 conversion kits that are sold just about everywhere. They have the tap and adaptor fittings in the kit. Some places even sell just the adaptor fittings, but those are harder to find, and not much cheaper. So you wind up with 3 extra cans of R-134 and some lube, no big deal. I hear the Feds crack down pretty hard on these blackmarket vendors if they catch them. They are treated sort of like drug dealers. Doubt they would go after the users, though you never know... |
Take this stuff to a high quality shop that has a refrigerant identifier and have them open and test one of the cans. Its quite possible its 134a, but without testing, you cannot know for sure.
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Paul:
Legitimate sellers will have you fax an image of your drivers license and your 609 certification. The person you bought from didn't request it for a very simple reason: He didn't sell you R-12. He merely stuffed R-134a in an R-134a can and painted it R-12. You paid $30 for something that can be had at Wal-Mart for about $4.50. As soon as I saw "Hecho in Mexico", I knew you had been ripped off. The contents of the can may not even be R-134a. There's really no telling what's in it and as one poster above suggested, it would need to be analyzed. I would contact the EPA and turn this crook in. |
This is R-12. I know because the Ebay seller continues to sell these exact cans and receives positive feedback from the auctions.
Like I said, I contacted him indirectly, and that's probably the reason why he didn't ask for my EPA cert. To be absolutely certain though, I will have it analyzed before putting it into my AC system. ~Paul ______________________ '91 300E, 214K miles |
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