Cracked subframe-where to go for help from MB
 

My local mechanic put my car up to see if he could see what was causing my steering to be so loose and to my surprise he thinks I have a cracked subframe. I recall seeing something about a subframe re-call on the web but can't find it anywhere. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

J. Boggs

What model car?? The 1972 thru 1980 450SL's(USA models) had a subframe recall!!
If your car is that model & year group, then go to any dealer!

Sorry, an 83 380sl
 

There is a hairline crack where the drivers side lower arm connects to the frame.

Thanks.

J. Boggs

The 1983 380SL isn't covered under the recall!! However we replaced a few under GOODWILL waranty several years ago.
NO harm in asking the local zone rep! Welding Won't last long.

Well the ones we have reinforced and welded are doing fine. We do exactly what MB did only we use thicker material. All done on the car for a lot less money.

Can you elaborate on the weld?
 

I am taking my to a dealer for a looksee tomorrow but on first glance it looks like it is cracked at the lower arm bushing. From what I am told, most of them cracked at the top of the subframe where the mounts mee the body.

What kind of weld and reinforcement are typical?

Thanks.

J. Boggs

I was talking to a warrantee rep friend of mine who I apprenticed with years ago,and I believe he said MB is also covering the all alluminum engine now. Don't quote me,but ask.

Good luck,
Peter

MB was paying to have the subframe replaced if it was the older style frame without the reinforcement gussets. Only if there was already a crack though. If there was no crack, they would have the gussets welded in for you only. Your probably out of luck if the car came with gussets from the factory and it cracked anyways. I replaced a subframe just last year at no charge to the owner on a '77. One lower control arm mounting plate had cracked right off, of course the recall had not been done back in 84 when it should have though, but MB covered it anyways.
Gilly

Don't understand that lingo I guess?
 

This appears to have a hairline crack on the rim of the rear lower mount connection-kind of looks like a small cup and the I had to look several times to see it.

What's a gussett?


J. Boggs

As "Gilly" said IF the original subframe was not cracked & then modified, you wouldnt have any structural problems. If the crack is very small you might add the reinforcements & not have any later problems either. Quality of welding is important!!!

Subframe crack update.
 

Dealer mechanic looked at it and they brought me in the back to show it to me. The mechanic was away for a second so I showed the service manager where I thought it was. Sure enough, there is a pretty good crack in the frame at the rear where the lower arm attaches to the subframe. The mecahic walks up and says "I guess you saw the crack" and shines his light on the front of the subframe at a loose weld. He hadn't even seen the other one. So now I have two cracks.

RBM Atlanta wants $1700 to replace. I'm holding out for a total comp. I know the subframe can be bought for $400 and change. I can get a used but inspected one for $200 from Potomac. It has new sway bars, subframe mounts shocks, tie rod ends and center link.

Needs new motor mounts, they quoted me $900 for motor mounts installed-they cost about $50 a piece and it takes an experienced mechanic 1 1/2 hours to install-NINE HUNDRED BUCKS? I can do that myself of less than $100 right?

I'll keep posting the results. What would you guys do?

Thanks.

J. Boggs

I'd call my buddy that tig welds for a living :):)

J.

I'm not accusing, but I think you might be getting ready to be stiffed. Before you do anything,let me make a few inquiries at the back door. I'll email you privately.

Peter

The "gussett" is like a small reinforcement bracket. The earlier cars didn't have them, and MB started seeing them crack, so they came up with this reinforcement idea, which works pretty good. i would say your car probably had them from the factory, as soon as they came up with this idea they added the bracket at the factory. I don't know if they will stand behind it if the bracket (gussett) was there from the factory, they only seem willing to help on one that was built before the modification was done at the plant. Seems more than fair from the standpoint that the bulletin and letters were sent out back in the mid-80's, now here it is 15+ years later and they paid for a new subframe for some guy who never had the gussetts welded in. If he would have had it done back then, it'd probably never cracked.
At this point I would get it inspected at the dealer and see if there is anything MB would be wiling to do. i'd be curious to know if the gussetts were installed at the factory. I may be able to fish up that recall bulletin, MB DOC is probably right that an 83 is too new to be affected by the old recall, but I'll look. You can also ask the dealer to check VMI to see if there is any outstanding recall work on the car, if there is one for this repair, then I'd say you have a new subframe coming!
Gilly

Gilly,

I'm disagreeing with you on the fairness of the 15 year thing. Mb stood there with their boots clicked together stating they offered a superior product,only to end up putting out a product that allowed the left front wheel to fold under at road speed. The problem is chronic on the 107 series. Before that they put out the 108 and 114 series where the steering box broke away from the frame. All in all MB used to make a fine automobile, I just wish they wouldn't use their screwups to try and turn them into a profit. I've been down this road before, and I'd just like to see MB tell the owner that they will put in new mounts or whatever to try in some way to make up for the fact they put the owners life in danger. As I recall, every 107 I sent to the dealer during that era become a profit incentive for the dealer. I can't fault the dealer for trying to pay the rent;MB should have picked up the tab.You might disagree with me, Gilly,but that's how I feel.

Peter

MB did try to make good on this problem. This was a voluntary recall issued by MB. The dealer, sure they made whatever MB decided they would pay the dealer to do the inspection and repair of the problem, and MB paid for it. I don't see how the owner was a loser in any of this. I agree if they are as good as they (MB) says, this never would have happened, but I feel MB did the honorable thing with this recall.
My main point was I feel it was extremely generous of MB to still honor this recall 15 years after the letters were sent out. If the owner (or perhaps more appropriately the owner at the time, as I don't think this was the original owner) would have acted in a timely manner 15 years ago, I doubt the failure would have occured. All I was stating is that it semed "more than fair" (ie. "generous" without using midwestern slang) for MB to give the guy a new subframe. It's more generous, given the circumstances, than I would be if it were up to me. What other car company is going to honor a recall on a 24 year old car (it was a 1977, and this was last year, 2001) that was issued 15+ years ago (1984)? Not many, my friend.
Gilly
ps Just to clarify, MB DID pick up the tab, and was still doing so last year on the 1977 I mentioned, MB payed the warranty claim on it.

My .02cents on the fairness of it all...
 

Suppose rather than me checking on it -mainly because I read about it on this forum (thanks)-it was the attorney for my estate calling, because I had been killed because of a failure at high speed. Or worse, my wife and/or kids.

You know, if a non-ciritical part fails after all this time-that's just maintainence-buyer pays. But if it involves a part directly linked to the safety of the vehicle and other motorists, a known high-fialure item, in my opinion, the manufacturer pays and probably should be glad they dodged the first bullet. I guess you could make a case that there should be a statute of limitations somewhere otherwise I'm sures the Model T's has some problems but in todays litigious world, it's a small price to pay for my safety.

These are rough numbers:


Subframe $595 retail
$430 wholesale
$+/- $250 oem to dealer.

9hours labor? RBM get $85 hour
$100 misc-bolts, washers, arm kits etc,

I have seen and fixed many of these cracks. From experience, I wouldn't consider it a safety issue.

Those will say that any amount of lead in their water is bad and by such standards the word safety has to be attached to any problem with suspensions BUT, in all the cases where total failure occured (the crack servering and the control arm folding) it happened at low speeds. This is NOT an accident. The loading of the affected area is probably tens of times higher during slow speed turning than at high speeds. The only exception to this might be potholes at high speed.

The part always breaks in a parking lot.

Steve,

Thanks for shedding some light on something that has been bugging me for years. I have also observed that total failure of the subframe, or the bolts being fired out of the steering boxes on earlier models always occured at low speeds. I am also a Fiat 124 spider fan which has the same sort of subframe failure. After the second new subframe failed on one of my spiders I welded in the gussets like MB. I never had another failure. By the way the failures occured at low speeds during braking. I'm still concerned about a situation where severe damage is done in a parking lot only to be finished off on the highway. I suppose that other than food for a healthy discussion, it's a moot point,since these subframes should have all been fixed by now.

Peter

To Steve in FL.
 

I am trying not to be too hardheaded about this, although I will be very stubborn with the dealer.

Since you have experience with this, is it possible to have it welded so that it is not a danger to drive. The mechanic says it is defective in two places but if I could simply have it welded properly for a reasonable amount, I'm OK with that.

Your low speed history is somewhat re-assuring.

Thanks.

J. Boggs

Weld it and go JB and you should be fine.
I would suggest cleaning it up and putting some protective coating on it upon completion of the weld. Find a weld shop with a lift and show them what you need repaired. Tell them you want it tig welded.
good luck

What's JB?
 

Tell you what, I'll bring the family down to the warplane museum (my kids love that place), you hook me up with a welder in WR.
That way if it gives way on the drive down, we all die together.
Thanks.

J. Boggs.

Let me know when you want to come down :) and we can schedule something. The welder that I would have you take it to is in Lizella. Good tig welder but you will have to bring your ramps. If you don't want to drive it down you could take it to a good body shop. A good body shop will have a welder that can tig.

j,
I said I'd do some checking. I got hung up on jury duty and actually got on the panel of a bank robbery case,but the DA didn't like me for some reason, and said"the people would like to thank and excuse Mr. Zoldos". I'll check tomorrow with some friends I have in low places. I'll send you some info then.

Peter

Stopped the presses, MB capitulated.
 

Just got a call, covering all part and labor. I will have to pay for the new motor mounts. Adjusted down to $210 total. New alignment of $100.

Pretty decent deal all told.

Thanks for the help and support.

J. Boggs

J.

Congrads. I guess I don't have to make any calls,because you couldn't ask for a better deal

Peter

Way to go JB :)

Have just received info from MB Classics that my 78 450sl (126k)still has an open claim on the sub-frame and will be repaired under warranty. After reading through several posts, I am still a little unclear as to what exactly will be repaired?

In addition, are there other things I should consider having the dealership look at or replace while the car is there and is being repaired? Someone suggested motor mounts, another suggested new bushings, etc. My goal would be to take of items prone to wear (rubber) over the 24 year period as preventative maintenance, while not going crazy spending $ foolishly.

Any suggestions or insight would be appreciated.

Brian

While they are at it...
 

The subframe is that big piece that goes across the bottom that basically holds the wheels to the bottom of the car. Major surgery. Good while you are at it's are subframe mounts, and motor mounts. Maybe lower arms.

Glad they are taking care of it.

J. Boggs

Brian:
First they need to inspect where the lower control arms attach to the front subframe. If NO cracks are found, they will need to MIG weld in some support gussets, that's all.
IF cracks are found, then they will contact your zone office and they will authorize replacement of the subframe assembly.
A good idea at that point is to have the suspension components inspected for wear or dry-rot and have the suspension all renewed as neccesary. Anything beyond the labor to actually replace the subframe technically is at your expense. I did this once and replace the lower control arms. Since they needed to be removed and put back on the new subframe anyways, there was no additional labor charge, just the extra parts the owner had to pay for.

I really couldn't believe the whole thing. It was a 77 with over 100,000 miles on it, with a recall that should have been done in 1985, and yet MB was still honoring the recall!

Gilly

What the hell was the $900 about? I think I bought my mounts for less than $50 at fastlane and had then put on for $40!!!:eek: