Technical Accuracy
 

I am constantly faced with a quandry.

Should I leave technical inaccuracy unattended? Should I correct a member of good standing and significant contribution? This isn't my site and I have no responsibility to it or its members. I like to talk but I hate contention.

I was a chess star in high school but quit the game in college because I didn't like what I did to win. I have the ability to be real nasty and I work to keep from going there. I have never left an untruth, uncountered; but it can be costly.

I have been able to leave posts where the truthful thing would be to state that there isn't enough knowledge to continue. but, I can't pull myself from mis statements that can cause future damage.

How should I handle it? I had to listen to a good friend the other day tell about how he was getting beaten up for telling a bunch of BMW techs online that they shouldn't be working on what they were as they weren't prepared. I went into the site and read it. it wasn't pretty. I was embarassed to tell him that he had to be more tolerant; and real embarassed to tell him the level I put up with on this site. I didn't tell him because he would look down upon me.

Should I stay to tech only sites where technical inaccuracy has a half-life in nanoseconds? Where contending views are sorted out through facts not case studies?

Steve

For what it is worth - my response.

We are all on this forum for the same purpose - to help, to be helped and to share.

You are a recognised and valuable contributor to the site and if you spot a technical inaccuracy I would certainly hope you that you alerted us to it.

Now as to the manner of how the correction is posted - that is a matter for you - but hey we are all grown ups.

My opinion - this is probably the best MB forum in the world (doesn't really cover my model (89-230TE Euro) but there is enough common ground) and there are some really awesome contributors.

The sheer volume and detail on this site makes it a great resource - no one person can know everything or even remember all the detail of a procedure etc. So I am sure in that vein no one should mind too much if they are corrected for slippages.

These forums need experts like you to keep the rest of us some what headed in the right direction. Sometimes accuracy is essential, and sometimes it is not. Expertise becomes essential in making those decisions. We would expect an expert to step in at that time to put us straight. In doing so some feelings may get hurt, but generally that is lessened by supported fact versus personal opinion. Supported fact is what can help to guide us in our trouble shooting and repairs.
Hang in there!

Technical accuracy
 

Steve,
I think you should always correct technical inaccuracy whether from a longstanding member or newbie, however, it may be best to PM the user and point out the inaccuracy to give them a chance to correct it. :)

Even someone that is recognized as an expert in their field cannot claim to have all-encompassing knowledge on any topic.

This is true for automobile techs too!

Steve, I have found your contributions invaluable, and have often wished that I didn't live a week's drive away so that I could repay some of your contributions here with some business. You would be missed greatly!

For the sake of clarity and accuracy, I would hope that you would be able to correct even the most seasoned pro when they do slip up. Would you take offence is someone pointed out an error that you made? I don't recall such offence being taken.

One thing that we should remember is that the archived posts serve as a valuable resource for all members, and having them contain accurate information does nothing but increase their value to everyone on here.

Thanks to Steve, Doc, etc. I know more about my car than the service writer at my local dealer. My knowledge of some things like the AC/ACC system even surprised one of the dealer techs the other day. ALL of it was learned here.

Personally, I never let an inaccuracy I read pass unanswered, whether my opinion is right or wrong ultimately. If I'm wrong, I just hope someone else will point that out. Unfortunately, my experience and thus any knowledge of MB vehicles is limited to what I have done as a DIY on our one MB vehicle in 2 years time. Most of the questions on this forum are model/year specific ones, and if someone were to post an inaccuracy, I wouldn't have a clue.

Fortunately for you, Steve, this is not a problem. Unfortunately, I'm sure you don't have the time to personally respond to each and every question. Still, how can this forum be helpful if we don't all contribute where our experiences may help some other soul? Sometimes that can be as simple as pointing to a new search choice - as good as the search engine is here, some relevant stuff may be obscured.

Specifically in your case, the pubs and links to articles you've authored and detailed answers you've contributed, as well as those of the other pros here, can often be more helpful than answering the same questions over and over. I think we all yearn for more articles.

Anyway, just try not to get too annoyed, and keep up the good work.

Steve

As someone who has, more than once, been "technically inaccurate", I have always appreciated being pointed in the right direction. Given the nature of the internet and forums, it'sbetter to nip things in the bud and prevent the propogation of incorrect information.

Hey Steve, here's my two cents, for what it's worth. Technical accuracy sometimes leaves no room for opinion. It is the way it is. When information that's posted is downright wrong, you're obligated to post a correction. I'm a longtime dealer tech/team leader and I've jumped in several times to correct inaccurate posts. I've only done this when; 1. The mis-information was stated as factual. 2. The person in need of help/advice was going to wind up screwed. 3. I absolutely knew the answer. I enjoy sharing my MB knowledge with DIYer's. I respect anyone willing to roll up their sleeves and get dirty, and I'm sure you feel the same way. This is why you SHOULD correct mistakes when you find them. The seriousness/consequences of the error will be left to your own judgment. Thanks for listening

Steve,

You're an asset to this forum. As a certifiable :D shade tree mechanic, I have my fair share of misconceptions and probably have forwarded too many of them. You and your fellow pros make me more informed everyday. My world is very simple, four vehicles (2 volvo, 2 benz).

There are few absolutes, even in automotive diagnostics and repairs. Therefore, I never presume that your (or any other respected tech on this forum) choosing to not comment on a thread equates to your blessing the technical content/accuracy.

One thought that may help your techincal conscience or perceived need to correct. There appears to be a number of recurring items that captures folks attention (and emotions). Lubricants, antifreeze, brake fluid, spark plugs, R-12 to R134 conversions, HVAC diagnostics, and the list goes on..... You might consider addressing items that are really grabbing your attention, with a technical article as you've done using other articles [yes, the man is published http://www.continentalimports.com/ser_art.html]. Stated differently, transfer that energy to an article/tech-document/tech-note you can point to in your response to an inaccuracy. It doesn't have to start out "complete". It could start out addressing a specific area (with a caveat that puts the information into the correct context). Then as others items need to be addressed, you could add to. Your doing it in one place, vice "everytime".

Thanks for all of your contributions.

Steve - I would most definitely state what you know, from experience and training, to be correct then if the other poster wants to post otherwise well, so be it. I would not worry too much about it after you have made your statement. You would think I was from Missouri because alot of stuff anymore someone has to "show me". Being in the business all these years you have probably seen it all in regards to customers misguided BS. I just see a portion of it and some of what I see blows me away.
Keep up the good work Steve.

Thanks, for the good words, it helps.

My wife happened upon the thread in question as I was watching Indy and warned me not to go back to it and I won't. I did get her rendition of it as she explained it to my buddy (another shop owner over for the race). But this is what I am talking about. Very hard to deal with character assasination over the issue I questioned.

A person has to be real small to think that opinions dressed as facts aquire any more stature by degrading the messenger.

Steve,

I would hope that any inaccurate posting is corrected, especially a technical one. I am extremely grateful for the total knowledge this site provides and especially from professionals such as you.

Although a member for only a few years myself, it seems that there is often a process to the postings for help- that is, someone will request help/information and that is followed by often by both anecdotal experiences and then by someone who has "been there and done that".

This is where it can be hard on moderators. The most posted items (brands of oils, spark plugs, tire etc) all bring personal experiences that by definition are not empirical, but make for some lively and often good discussions.

What seems to set this forum apart from others are the collective intentions of the members and the moderators. By and large, it appears the members of this forum are good-hearted people willing to help and share around remarkable automobiles. I recall our efforts to help a family in desperate need in Kansas about a year ago, even to the point of sending them money. Good hearts.

Thank you for all your postings for those of us who are in search of correct solutions.

You have helped me personally several times and I am enjoying the results of having been technically corrected to the RIGHT repair/solution for our cars.

This is incredibly invaluable in my opinion. It is the difference between fair and excellence.

I look forward to your next technical corrections ...

Haasman

as one of the least knowledgable on this site
 

i would ask you to stay the course.ultimately the decision is yours and yours alone.i can say that i do enjoy reading your contributions and i'm sure you've helped me in the past.whether you or the other guy were right,partly right or both wrong i don't know.what i do know is that it's great to have this forum and get all views and we make our own decisions from there.i'd be selfish to ask you to stay with this forum,so thanks and hopefully we'll be hearing from you for a long time still

Steve, it is your ethical responsibility to correct any misinformation you may come across on any technical website. Once the correction is made, you are not responsible for any adverse reaction somebody may have who takes your posts personally and feels slighted. That's their problem.

Of course, it also depends on how a correction is worded. One must attack the issue - not the person discussing it. I have never noticed you attack anyone personally. So rest assured you are well within your bounds of our discussions, and are welcome to correct anyone - including myself - if you find error. I'd hate to think I steered somebody in the wrong direction without being corrected.

I've never visited a BMW website. Compared with this M-B site, do these people have attitude problems?

Hell yes. Most of them are wannabe M-B drivers. :D

Steve

Keep doing what you have been, namely a great job.
What's the name of the movie, where Jack Nicholson said: " You can't handle the truth" ? ;)

Steve and all the other great guys on the forum,

One reason for my visits here is the opportunity to learn more. I like (g/f would change it to love:D ) my car and I want to learn how to maintain in the right way and how to deal with problems. Without those with more knowledge than me it would simply be impossible to improve skill in automobile technology.

For all of us who don't repair car for a living, sometimes the service manuals aren't enough. We need help to understand what we really read. It's the same thing with diagnosis, we need help to understand what we see.

If I would be corrected by a member known for accurate posts I would never be offended. I hope all professional techs bear with us for all the stupidity we(read I) posted because the simple fact that we don't know any better.

Without your posts this forum wouldn't serve it's purpose. To give help and share it with others about the topic MBenz. Thanks to Steve and all the other great members that correct us when we are wrong.

Was it my question about ezl module and trigger pulse that triggered this?! :rolleyes: :D

Steve Brotherton:

Please feel free to correct. How else does one learn if their inaccurate posts go unnoticed? I would not categorize this as condescending.

It sounds as if you're getting ready to "sign off"? I hope not, but this site has been graced by your presence longer than it has deserved to.

Do what ya gotta do.

Keep up the good work!!
 

Hi Steve,
I don't respond to many of the threads, because my knowledge base isn't Mercedes oriented, but I do read almost all of them, as I am keen to learn what I can from the great fount of information that is posted here. People like you are the ones that make sure the "fount" is presenting actual facts and not opinions, and I for one do appreciate knowing that I can rely on your information. I know that you have had to deal with several sticky comments from uninformed people on the forum, and I think you have handled them in a most gracious manner, mostly. I also read the GMC motorhome forum, and believe me, if you want opinions and smoke, just read that one for awhile!! I still read it, though, because occasionally there will be a gem of information to be gleaned.
I spent the whole day fooling around with my daughter's ford taurus, (no caps, it doesn't deserve them) replacing the AC compressor - what a job! The "new" compressor I got from the U-Pull-It parts emporium didn't fit, the pulley had the grooves positioned differently, so I had to take the pulley off and make two more belt grooves so that it would line up, even though the database at the U-Pull-It said it would fit. The pulley bearings in the old compressor were bad, heated up the pulley to almost red-hot and cooked the serpentine belt!
Keep up the good work!!
Regards,
Richard Wooldridge
'82 300D/4.3L V6
etc...

Steve,

I was thinking of sending you a private email this morning before coming across this thread. I think that I read the thread that led to your starting this one. That is what made me think of writing you.

Before I get to your subject, technical accuracy, I want to ensure that you know just how valuable your posts on this forum are. You have a unique combination of technical intelligence (that is not meant to demean your general intelligence,) analytical mind and vast experience.

The automotive world is very complex. I'm not only speaking of the many technologies and sciences involved, but the minds of everyone who is or think they are knowledgable regarding automobiles. Not only are there an extraordinary number of myths in the automotive world, but there are zillions of people that think they are experts.

Concepts and theories are just that until proven in practice. You are at such a level of experience in understanding such concepts PLUS your experience has honed this knowledge to a very sharp edge of accuracy. You KNOW what works and what does not work in practicality and you UNDERSTAND the concepts involved.

We have lots of well meaning people that enjoy posting here on mshop and we also have the casual visitors that are just looking for some quick advice. As within any group of people, whether it be a group at work, school, church, clubs, etc., there are good attentive, appreciative people and there are JERKS.

Your patience and willingness to help ALL of us is incredible.

There are probably some people that log on looking for an answer, you give it to them and they go on without even saying thanks, like ships passing in the night. All they know is that they got your answer. They have no idea about the high caliber of the person that offered it.

In the thread that put me in mind to write you, you pointed out that too much compressor oil could destroy a compressor while not enough would simply wear it out. I totally understood your answer and realized the value because I know your background, reputation and experience level. The person to whom you offered this valuable information never understood just how valuable the information was.

I know that you have seen hundreds if not thousands of auto a/c systems and have seen what works and what doesn't. In that statement alone, I learned something that would have taken several years of observation on a daily basis, plus an ability to understand what you were seeing.

Although accuracy is nothing that is open for compromise, I am thinking that maybe in cases such as this, where someone wants to argue about fact, maybe it would help you to just tell them that you have offered them the facts and it is their choice to believe it or not. There are some things that are just fact. The Sun continues to rise in the East and set in the West and this will continue regardless of who does or who does not believe it.

I understand how it can bother you to know that you tried to help but someone refused to listen. I'm sure you've heard the old saying that "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

I speak for myself, but I expect I speak for most everyone who frequents mshop when I say that you are not only highly appreciated, but you are the pillar of experience and technical accuracy on this site.

The amount of VALUABLE information and advice that you share here is incredible. In spite of that vast value, I can't recall even once where you asked for ANYTHING in return.

We thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have a great Memorial Day,

Hey Steve,
 

I'd been a member in this forum for a while an I KNOW how valuable you advice is. I am lucky to live only an hour away from you and I have taken my car to your shop in the past for different problems. You also have helped me on line directly on different car problems over the years. You have corrected me quite a few times and I never took it personal because I KNOW I am a DIY'er and you are a PRO with over 30 years of experience.
I certainly would hope that if some wrong advice was given by anyone, you or any pro on this site, would step in and give the correct advice for the problem in a professional way. Keep in mind, it may also help future readers of the same topic through the "search" function in the archives.
Remember that the vast majority of this forum are DIY'er with different levels of experiences united with the common love for our MB's and, a few pro's to keep us straight.
Your knowledge is unquestionable and invaluable to this site and I thank you!

Steve, One who corrects or better stated explains, leads to discussion and should be view as learning, new knowledge, thats why we belong to this forum. I believe when there are no answers to help, that leads to dissatisfication, and discontent. One who shares his knowledge, experience as you do is called a teacher, Thanks.
enjoy your drive, timreid

Steve - Your opinion is one I always read and pay attention to - please do keep contributing (and correcting!)...

Chris

Re: Technical Accuracy
 

No, you should ignore the personal equation of this forum and continue to put out the truth! That is why we love you Steve, you are a brain!:D

IMO truth is the ultimate goal for regular members, everything else needs to be side lined.

technical accuracy
 

I agree with the previous responses that we are here for technical accuracy. The information that results from a discussion over the technical aspects of a question is extremely educational for one and all, and raises the overall expertise of all concerned. We all understand that it is time taken from your own professional and personal life when you rescue one of us from a potential screwup. It would be a great loss for all if you decided not to contribute in the future.

If I could have just one person a month speak as highly of me, I would be motivated to get out of bed and keep plugging at IT each and every day, despite the critics. Steve, you have some loyal fans here. Stay with us. We know professional opinion from wild-a$$ guesses.

I hope everything I post will be scrutinized, criticized, contested, contradicted, or even completely ignored as needed to get the job done. Nothing personal. This is what makes a technical forum work! Polite discord can serve to unravel the truth. It is healthy. If I am given good advice, and decide not to take it, it is my own damn fault, and some lessons need to be learned first hand. Those who ignore advice from Steve are probably stubborn fools, or perhaps ignorant of the value his perspective brings, but so be it... one cannot save the entire automotive world.

I do try to persist on matters of personal safety, and I hope everyone will have the tenacity to 'nag' anyone who is likely to hurt him/herself in their intended course of action. Otherwise, advice is like anything else- you can only expect to get what you pay for!

I am also very experienced in my own technical field, and I think I may know what Steve is getting at. Sometimes one feels like the boy in "The Emperor's New Clothes". The man is naked. That is the truth, there is no gray area about it, no one else can see it, and it is so hard to let it go...

After a while, you start to see new people heading down the same dead end paths that have been tried by so many before them, and there is nothing you can do to convince them to turn the other way.

Steve, it's just amazing that you contribute to this site as much as you do. There are sites and forums such as this one pertaining to my profession, but I never go there because I'd rather do something else with my free time.

I think most of us realize how valuable your advice is and that it is coming from a real pro. But of course there is always at least one bad apple. After reading the rest of the comments here, I went in search of the offending thread. In that case, I definitely think you should "go there" and finish the job. The guy's mind is made up and, now that he is personally attacking you, I think you would be well served to exercise your authority (and responsibility) as a moderator to simply delete the entire thread.

If you're thinking of checking out, and it sounds like you are, then may I suggest the less radical step of turning off your email and P.M. links so that you can just browse the forum at your own discretion without having people bother you individually.

Finally, if/when anything serious enough happens to one of my cars that requires a shop visit, I will certainly investigate the possibility of coming to Gainesville. Your expertise is certainly worth a couple hours drive, and a whole lot more.

Steve, why Florida? I have been to Montana many times, an it's GREAT!

Perhaps you'd consider setting up shop in Great Falls or Helena? I can make that 1000km drive!!

Steve, my wife and I drive from Michigan...
 

to Sarasota at least 2 times a year and just because of your expertise and posts on this forum, I contemplate on looking up Continental Imports each and every time I drive thru Gainesville just so that I can shake your hand and meet you in person. I would love to be able to quit my humdrum job and work side by side with you just in the hopes of learning a little from you.

Need someone to get you a cup of coffee in the morning at your shop? How about answering the phones?

To say the least, you are one of the most respected members here and the loss of your membership and knowledge would be sorely missed. I hope you remain a member here.

Frank

p.s.- would you like cream and sugar with that?:D

Steve -

My .02 is that this is not a human relations forum and if you see something wrong you should call it as you see it. But I think you should keep in mind that some of us shade-tree sorts occasionally come up with an idea or technique that challenges the conventional wisdom.

Rgds,

And I'll volunteer to keep Franks shoes shined while he is taking care of Steve, then fill in for him on the days he can't make it.

Have a great day,

I can bring some shoe polish, and pick up some cream, sugar, and some of that really good coffee that the Germans drink.

(of course, I would be delivering it with whatever car needs the most attention at that time) :D

It is people like you that add some stability to this forum that sometimes goes overboard about how many mils thick a coat of paint is. Thank you for your recent help and please stay with us. I didn't see the thread in question but i know there is always a weak minded person trying to look better than the teacher. please continue to share your experience. we need your help. charlie

Tribal knowledge is rampant among automobile posts. Please hang in there and do what ever it takes to correct those technical inaccuracies you find.. This is a responsibility we all share by virtue of participating on the forum. ;)

We are all here to learn, and to help others.

Anyone who got good at anything, got good by correction and the commitment to personal understanding

Any expert became competent by this process.

To stay here, we are all morally bound to learn, and to help others learn...whether or not they happen to be more expert at most of the broader MB subject area.

Mark Shinnick

A person has to be real small to think that opinions dressed as facts acquire any more stature by degrading the messenger. [/B][/QUOTE]

Steve,

In this post I speak not as a shade tree mechanic but as a shade tree philosopher.

The dilemma you appear to be dealing with concerns the relationship between authority and power.

The two words are often (mistakenly) used interchangeably but they are two very distinct parts of a system that defines ethics and morality.

Succinctly stated... If one acts (exercises power) as a consequence of genuine authority (true knowledge and moral purpose) then one is acting authoritatively and therefore ethically.

However if one claims authority because s/he has power... then acts emanating from such a relationship are authoritarian and immoral.

Ultimately authority existed prior to creation and is therefore godlike and divine and it is this transcendent quality that we as humans can share with our creator (all can share but not all choose to share). And in this sense we have been created in the image of God.

Alternatively, power is a consequence of creation... a consequence of authority... and is therefore temporal rather than divine... and it too is very much a part of our human nature. By itself power is as amoral as a parked Mercedes... How it is used is what defines whether it is part of moral or immoral acts.

Thus... when you or another post and speak with genuine authority based on experience and true knowledge you are exercising power and acting authoritatively and morally.

Contrarily, those who "degrade the messenger" are making a power play. They are using an unethical exercise of power to either undermine a source of genuine authority (like yourself)... or they are attempting to deceptively and unethically bestow authority upon themselves by infering the messenger is responsible for the content of the message.

So whenever you have doubts about the wisdom of doing good simply remember that power is short lived and temporal while authority is eternal and divine... and that you as a Moral Master Mercedes Mechanic... posess both and have unwittingly become a founding member of the 4M Club.

Thanks once again for telling me where to find that corroded connector that was under the floor mat of the rear seat! I had the whole interior of the car torn out to include door panels and seats...all dispersed throught the back yard trying to find it.

:)

Nicely stated ejsharp. I had to read it twice, but nicely stated.

Steve: The combination of your knowledge and willingness to share it is priceless.

Some folks have one and not the other. But those who hold onto the "power of their unshared knowledge" kill it in the end. My 85 yr old martial arts master was constantly teaching so he could pass on as much as possible to his students. I will never forget his passion to help others by passing on the truth.

Hang in there and do what you feel is right.



Oh, and thanks for recommending that perfect Blaupunkt for my 260E earlier this month......
:)

Steve,
I have an uncle overseas who is a professional Mb technician for over 50 years. To me he's the best. He only works on Mercedes cars. I used to hang in his shop when I was a kid and that was the reason I studied engineering and work in the automotive industry. I would have to say that after reading some of your posts, I was really impressed with your level of knowledge that I can speak for two people now; my uncle and you.
Thanks for all of your replies to my emails and to this forum.
You generous contribution to this forum has always been a great help.