Is merecedes too troublesome ? - Page 10 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

blackmercedes · #**136** 09-15-2003, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Benz300
...what do people above 6' drive when they need a two seater convertible ? obviously not SL...

My Dad is 6'2" and fits fine in his R107 450SL.

DavidB29 · #**137** 09-15-2003, 11:20 PM

As for the complexity issue, I love the quote from J.L.K. Setright (a car magazine writer), that "Mercedes would never use one part where two parts would do."
As for the vacuum door locks, I have enough trouble and expense from repairing them as they age that I would much rather tolerate the slight noise of electric locks. And as for reliability, I have had a damn sight more vacuum door lock failures than battery failures. (I have never heard of anyone with electric locks having to repair them. From my 35 years of MB experience, vacuum is more likely to leak from old brittle tubing and fittings than electrons are to leak from decently made wire.) Plus, my two W124 sedans have both had lock failure modes in which the lock's vacuum pump keeps running after the car is shut off, keeping the locks shut so you cannot get into or out of the car without overpowering 9and probably damaging) the locks. Now THAT is a royal PIA.

Mercedes Fred · #**138** 09-16-2003, 01:51 PM

rust protection is quite good on my benx, an 88 300e; for a 15 year old car, theres only a few spots that have appeared.

many toyota owners tell me that although their cars functioned flawlessly with little maintenance, they rusted from arsehole to appetite after ten years.

therefore, the longer the car stays in "one peice" the lower the cost per kilometer to run if the body and motor stay in one piece. its the periphery systems that seem to age poorly, like climate control and luxury items. but the motor and body remain solid for decades.

itb76 · #**139** 09-18-2003, 01:36 PM

Bugs bite Mercedes quality
Glitches lead to go-slower approach

By Diana T. Kurylko
Automotive News / September 15, 2003

FRANKURT -- Top executives at Mercedes-Benz admit that a wave of increasingly complex electronic products proved so difficult to debug that the German automaker is modifying its first-at-all-costs approach to technology.

Quality glitches caused by Mercedes' Comand system proved maddeningly difficult to fix two years ago, forcing the automaker to boost product testing by 50 percent.

Problems with Comand, which integrates the onboard navigator, entertainment system and phone, forced Mercedes to buy back 2,000 E-class sedans from U.S. customers. The quality glitches also created tensions with Robert Bosch GmbH, a key Mercedes supplier.

This is the first time Mercedes-Benz has acknowledged the widespread quality problems. During an interview with Automotive News at the Frankfurt auto show, a top company executive said Mercedes is working hard to improve its ranking on consumer quality surveys.

"We have a problem because we are the technology leader," said Juergen Hubbert, the DaimlerChrysler board member responsible for Mercedes cars. "We were not talking about (the improvement) because you have to see it. On the next survey you will see we are on our way."

Hubbert was referring to J.D. Power's most recent Initial Quality Survey, which measures a vehicle's quality three months after it is purchased. The survey, which was released in spring, ranked Mercedes 15th among brands, barely above the industry average.

Detective work

Problems began to crop up two years ago, when Mercedes-Benz had trouble integrating Comand's features. Bosch supplied the system's navigator.

When Mercedes-Benz connected Comand's electronic systems, the screen would go blank and systems would malfunction. The system created other glitches. For example, the system inadvertently would activate the electric seats and drain the battery.

A Bosch source says Mercedes asked the supplier to integrate Comand's features after Mercedes had trouble doing so. But the effort to debug Comand strained Bosch's engineering resources.

According to a Mercedes executive, Bosch placated its angry customer by firing a top executive in its Blaupunkt unit, which produces navigators, radios and other electronics. The Mercedes source did not name the executive, and the Bosch spokesman declined to comment.

But it is known that senior Bosch executive Stephan Rojahn left the company without explanation late in 2001.

Rojahn, a highly regarded manager who was on Bosch's fast track, was responsible for Blaupunkt. Rojahn later joined Durr AG, a manufacturer of paint equipment.

Sporadic failures

Comand's quality glitches proved difficult to track down. The electronics would fail sporadically, making it difficult to identify and fix problems.

"When you looked into it, it never happened again - until the next time," Hubbert said.

As problems persisted, consumers began to downgrade their opinions of Mercedes quality. According to J.D. Power data, Mercedes owners reported 132 problems per 100 vehicles, just above the industry average of 133 problems.

"Seven out of our top 10 problems are with electronics, communications, telematics, radio, telephone - activities where we had put a lot of electronic systems in the car," said Hubbert.

The good news, according to the company, is that the electronics problems have been fixed.

"What we have and what we deliver to the market is of significantly higher quality than it ever was," said Hans-Joachim Schoepf, executive vice president for Mercedes-Benz's car development and engineering.

To improve quality, Mercedes-Benz increased its product testing by 50 percent. "We do more testing than we ever did, especially with debugging," Schoepf said. "The real problem is that we underestimated the debugging phase in new electronics systems, especially multimedia."

The company also redesigned its Comand system so that it can diagnose a problem without the customer's intervention.

"If something happens in the system, it repairs itself," Schoepf says. "You won't see it as a customer."

Mercedes also has dispatched employees to its suppliers to become technology experts. The company has assigned staffers to Motorola, Nokia and Siemens, among others.

"If you want to work together with your supplier you have to have expertise," said Schoepf. "Otherwise, they can tell you anything."

Schoepf also says Mercedes made sure that dealers were kept informed so that they could fix vehicles as they came in for service.

Mercedes-Benz eventually changed suppliers, awarding the navigator contract to Harman/Becker Automotive Systems.

Bosch's other contracts with Mercedes have not been affected.

"It was clear the multimedia side has nothing to do with the fuel injection, sensor or the engine control unit," Schoepf said.

Technology leader

The experience has not deterred Mercedes-Benz from its goal of being the auto industry's technology leader in safety and fuel economy.

For example, Mercedes considers its Pre-Safe crash avoidance system, which activates the brakes when it senses an impending crash, to be a key safety technology.

But company executives are debating the need to adopt less essential technologies quickly. For example, Mercedes-Benz has not moved quickly to introduce Internet access or text message service.

Mercedes executives are troubled by the brand's drop in quality ratings. But Joachim Schmidt, head of worldwide sales and marketing, argues that customer loyalty remains high.

"We have problems but ... we are very successful in terms of sales and we are very successful in terms of brand awareness," Schmidt said. "We have the highest loyalty rate in the automotive industry."

Schmidt says Mercedes dealers have been able to fix nearly all problems.

"We have customers that have high expectations," he says. "There is no sign that the situation is grave. Our image is great."

Peter Fearing · #**140** 09-18-2003, 03:46 PM

RE; MB quality. There are about the same number of items in my house that go on the"fritz" at least once a month. I expect to see repair people coming and going from time to time. But if you have a car, like a Benz its still basicaly a maintenace free auto. Course C Span or O'Rielly don't always come in clear. But maybe I sometimes don't agree with them. Go figure!

Benz300 · #**141** 09-18-2003, 03:54 PM

Lenny,
good one. it basically reiterates the fact that we've been debating all along in this post. It's about time mercedes acknowledged the issues it's facing. Atleast mercedes is admitting this. bmw on the other hand won't even admitt the problems that those cars are experiencing.

blackmercedes · #**142** 09-18-2003, 04:32 PM

The race is on. No one seems to want a car anymore. They want a coffee-maker on wheels. They want to read the paper, sip their latte, and surf the net while driving. So, makers are loading the cars with more and more junk. Junk that breaks all the time.

Cripes, look at the PC you're reading this on. Can you imagine if cars were as unreliable? PC's have had years and years of R&D on basically the same set of components, but it's still a huge cluster-f%^k.

I don't want the COMAND run the windows. I don't want the cruise control tied into the fuel pump and tire pressure monitor.

Seven speed automatic trannies? They are just getting the five speed right. I'd trade the new seven speed for an Air Mass Meter that lasts 10 years.

I do find it beyond funny that a new $60,000 C320 does not come with a CD player.

itb76 · #**143** 09-18-2003, 05:32 PM

60 grand for a C320!? MSRP is 36, I think even the AMG C32 is $54K, but you're right, the CD player is optional. Personally, I think navigation and all the other doodads should be optional, but a CD changer should come as standard. And the radio should have knobs and buttons on it, not a screen with menus that force you to take your eyes off the road. As troublesome as these electronics are, I'm really scared of brake-by-wire!

G-Benz · #**144** 09-18-2003, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by itb76
60 grand for a C320!? MSRP is 36, I think even the AMG C32 is $54K, but you're right, the CD player is optional.

Note that blackmercedes is quoting prices in CAN, not US currency...

haasman · #**145** 09-18-2003, 06:33 PM

Having had worked for several car manufacturers I have witnessed the two camps that typically make up German auto builders. There are the "traditionalists" who are very engineering oriented and the "marketing/sales groups" who understand what it means to sell products competitively and most importantly, successfully.

Here is the important message: Neither are wrong AND neither are completely right.

The engineers love to improve the product parameters through valid well-tested processes. Safety, performance, comfort etc but dislike the Tokyo-At-Night dashboard displays etc (Higher probability of failures).

The Marketing/Sales groups know that no CD (forget changers), no GPS, even as an option, will relegate product ratings as behind the other products in their class.

Having visited and become friends with several engineers, it is very interesting to see what cars they would choose to drive. Often it is not the latest, not the trailing (old technology cars) but the middle grouping. Similar I think to what this forum's drivers generally drive.

Although the Marketing/Sales people often get "company" cars to drive, what they purchase for themselves and their families are: the almost very same choices as the engineers.

Yes, parts of these choices are dictated by economics, but also because collectively, the two general groups know where the value and reliability lies.

In industry construction cultures, Japan continues to successfully integrate new technologies rapidly with low failure rates due primarily to their way of working together, company to company. The German auto industry has had to learn by trial and error, often times painfully (per these recent satisfaction surveys) that empirical specs, implementation schedules and refined processes are not enough to ensure a bug-free product.

Please remember that Porsche hired Japanese industry consultants to change and then improve their manufacturing process, from design through to build. Of course it was Porsche who was hired by Harley-Davidson to improve their engines to become smoother, more reliable and have more horsepower, but that’s another story.

Haasman

Momo · #**146** 09-19-2003, 06:48 AM

I was in Stuttgart yesterday. The taxi drivers both had the new E-class. Both had between 50 and 60k km. on the clock. Both had had a long series of electical and electronic problems, each having a particular one that I did not understand (my German is not great) that was not solved for two months. "MB did not have a solution." Both are fairly happy now. Both said that you should never buy an MB in its first year. At work, a colleague with a new E320 also had a series of electrical problems, but is now happy. He was one of two colleagues who said "Don't buy a new model in the first year."

At least the taxi drivers did not block the MB factory gates, which the did for the last two E-Class models. On the earlier one, the main problem was apparently doors that would not close.

Momo

RES · #**147** 09-19-2003, 10:10 AM

According to this web site the Mercedes cars look pretty good to me.
http://autos.msn.com/home/reliability_ratings.aspx?src=URES

itb76 · #**148** 09-19-2003, 02:27 PM

According to that website, my '98 ML320, first model year, is trouble free! Consumer Reports, on the other hand, keeps saying how unreliable they are.

A. Rosich · #**149** 09-19-2003, 11:18 PM

O.K. people, lets recap:

Mercedes-Benz argues that most of their reliability problems arise from multimedia, communications, entertaintment systems...

They claim they have "fix" most of the problems and switch suppliers from Bosch to Harman/Becker.

Remember what happened to the ill-fated MD-11 from Swissair? Accident investigations point to a problem of the multimedia system that developed an inflight fire. Swissair later removed or stopped using their multimedia systems in all of their aircraft.

Now, I ask, where is Swissair right now?

The new systems are manufactured by Harman/Becker?

Gosh, I feel so safe! My 1981 Becker Mexico Cassette unit (fitted to my 300TD) one day starting smoking badly after inserting a cassette. The unit was pulled from the car and opened to be serviced. The technician found transistors manufactured by Siemens on 1966 and discontinued on 1969. The Becker Mexico had a manufactured date of 10/1980. The unit was declared DOA and sacrificied (and take into account that the "option" costed US$1,500.00 in 1981!).

If Mercedes-Benz is not careful about its reliability problems, it might as well end up at the bottom of the Nouva Scotia sea like Swissair's MD-11.

#**150** 09-20-2003, 12:07 PM

"You know what's the most troubling thing about the whole deal? 3 weeks ago I felt it necessary to buy my wife a brand new Toyota 4Runner because I absolutely HAD to have 1 car in the family I KNEW would run whenever called upon. It's a shame to have such a big comfortable Benz, but not have the confidence to drive it anywhere but to work and back for fear it will strand me. I never, ever had that fear with my Lexus."

Yep.

Prior to getting a used '95 E320, I had driven Camry's for the past 10 years. Had a Corolla and a Starlet prior to that. I've had the Merc for about 7 months and have already spent more on it than I spent on both my Camry's in 10 years.

My merc has 127K on it and has been towed once. I had to replace the neutral safety switch and the radiator. And as y'all know....there are NO cheap repairs on a MB.

I am also shopping for a Toyota 4Runner simply because I want something I can trust to get me to work and back.