Cap'n, I guess that's where we differ... to me, your example reinforces my opinion.

I think driving a 1986 BMW 735i for only $2000/yr in maintenance is CHEAP!! You are getting a high-end luxury car experience for that money.

As I recall when I was in the market, the 735 has a reputation for high maintenance, and can thus be purchased cheap. Well under $10,000 for a very nice example of that vintage.

So, compare for example the 5-year cost of ownership. Lets say you spend the whole $10K for a really nice 735 of that year, spend $2K/year for maintenance, and end up with a resale value of $5K. So a net cost of $15K over 5 years.

What's the nicest Toyota experience you can get for the same cost of ownership? Maybe a brand new mid-range Camry. Ok, which would you rather drive, today... and a couple years from now?

Also, taxes, insurance and licensing (in most states) are significantly less on that BMW than on a new Camry, which you also have to figure into the total cost of ownership.

So... I think you CAN get luxury for less. Less money, anyway. I still have to give the nod to the new Toyota for less hassle.

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1992 300E Sedan (Sold)
1999 E320 Wagon (Sold)
1995 E320 Sedan
1995 E320 Wagon

In your zest to challenge anything I say or unthinkingly disagree with with me you missed my point. We should not be comparing unibodies with your old Benz. An old car is an old car. Whether a new anything is a better deal than an old Benz is highly subjective. My statement was not that luxury costs a lot of money. New luxury does. Old luxury costs less, but it still costs. And continues to cost in upkeep. Forget the Toyo and Hondas. Compare your car with what's in it's class. If it's worth what it costs to you then great. Let's hope it continues to hold up. Mine's eating my wallet and hasn't provided what was 'promised'.

Capt'n:

Benz has been unibody since 1953, so you would have to have a REALLY old one for a body on frame type.....

Peter

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1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!

When you compare cost of ownership of automobiles you also have to factor in the "cost of money." If you finance it you have the interest cost of the loan. If you buy it outright you have the loss of the interest on the money or what you could have made on the money if you invested it elsewhere.

So, if you buy a used luxury car for $10,000 or a new whatever for $20,000, your cost of money is twice as much for the new whatever. Also, sales tax on the new whatever will be twice that of a $10,000 used luxury car.

So after you buy that new $20,000 car and after the new car warranty runs out after 3 years/36,000 miles you pay for repairs. These cars are also getting more complicated and are having their problems. Jump onto some discussion groups for Honda Accord's and Toyota Camry's and you will find they are also not as bulletproof as they once were. Again, this is probably due to these cars also not being as "basic" as they once were.

I don't know how owning an 86 BMW 735i would cost $2000/yr. I owned 12 Bimmers and only Bimmers before my 1st Benz and still have one. I can list all the possible problems that could go wrong in a pre 90 BMWs. I personally would not consider any of them major. An 84 528e that I spent no more than $1500 in the past 7 years. Starts every morning and I prefer it over the Benz. It's my daily driver. The Benz costed me about $3000 so far most of it in parts in less than 2 years. I drove the 528e to Chicago from SC over 15 times in the last 2 years. I love the way this car cruise on the Highway. By the way, Not a single drop of oil added between oil changes. It has 189,xxx. Unless your friend goes to the dealer everytime something wrong goes with the car, small or big, I can understand $2000. Most of the expense of maintaing German cars is Labor. I must admit that I don't take my car anywhere unless I really really have to. I research and try to fully understand the system I am working on. I have plenty of tools. I am successful 90% of the time and sometimes I give up due to lack of specail expensive tools. I can't wait to get a 540i 6-speed...talking about power and handling. Truly the Ultimate Driving Machine.

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Meza
1993 190E 2.6
Advanced Diesel Systems Test and Research Engineer

I was wondering if anyone would pick up on that!

Meza, the fiend I speak of with the BMW always uses the dealer. He doesn't know the difference between a spark plug and spark knock!

Just for the record --had a 94 750i -- I hit a parking curb (not very hard I add) I do not remember what it was that I damaged on that thing -- it was an electronic sensor + ( I am not making this up $4500.00) I remember calling my insurance co and also fighting with BMW service about this crasy set up for this motor. BMW did step up to the plate.

They suffer from the same thing as MB - so does SAAB -- years ago (around 91)you never and I do say never wanted to own a 9000 T out of warr.

Even under a warranty, damage caused by misuse, such as by hitting a curb would not be covered. Although there is reason to only own some of the more complex cars only while they are covered by warranty, this is not one of them.

Hi there,

I for one also think $2000 in repairs a year is rather high.
I do like the design of bimmers as well, but as soon as I get into one I am let down by the plasticky build of the interior. Also I worked in Denmark at a BMW dealer and I saw the repair bills. Everything seem like special order and repair costs were consistently high. I for one is a very biased MB fan. I love the feeling of quality. In comparison I am not considering the latest 3-4 years of cars for MB or BMW. I do feel like MB has lost some ground during these years. I hope years to come proves us wrong but the stories worries me.
My experience with my last 4 MB's are as follows:

1998 - 2000 300ce from -92:
Got it with 67000 miles one owner from the dealer and negotiated 3 years starmark warranty for $980.- . Only thing ever went wrong was a dead battery, which MB replaced as it was not an original MB battery. My wife was sold on MB's. In terms of depreciation, this was my most expensive (-$7000).

1999-Current 300sdl from -86: (currently 172000)
Found this one owner car with 124000 mi. Same mechanic for the last 14 years, who has all rec's.
Has beyond reg. maintenance cost about $1200. Worst things were a leaking injector pipe, a stuck window and screecking wheel bearing. (Battery is way overdue and brakes are due soon, no warping though). Depreciation is negliable.

2000 - 2003 s500 -96: Starmarked for 4 years for $2000.
Leased this one for 36 mth's. Paid 52000 + tax. US Bank signed up for residual of 38000. This past februar I negotiated with US bank through 2 mth's (they called several times) and finally paid 20800. Two weeks later we sold it privately for 28000 with still one year of transferable starmark warranty. Depreciation very cool. Bank lost a little. Got new tires and heater core on the warranty. Had to do brakes myself for $700. Nothing else ever went wrong.

2003 - currently 560sel from -89:
This car I just bought. ("Buyer beware" story). I had just put new brakes and rotors all over for $670. Everything else has been done to it. Paid too much but with all the repairs I feel, I have a very good car on my hands.

In my experience I believe that buying an older well kept MB with proper maintenance history can only save you money over the long run. No other car can come close in terms of total ownership cost compared to the luxury you enjoy. With the newer ones with problems and depreciation factor, it is another story.
I believe I will be driving MB's for the rest of my life. 65% of the reason I would say is the total ownership cost. Rest is the fact that they are very safe and drives very nice. I do miss my S500 but I will say that I feel I was lucky with the one I had.

I think many people who have stories with older ones are either inheriting other peoples problems or mistreating their cars. I believe german cars are more sensitive to misuse and bad maintenance. One way I see people mistreat cars is by not letting them heat up and cool down properly. It's easy to hurt a car in these two phases.
Another thing I have made my wife no do is the parking on a hill without setting the emergency brake. The car then hangs in the transmission and when she shifts to drive upon leaving the car makes a big jerk, which can't be good for the transmission. Also when I meet her she would sometimes shift to park before the car was at a complete stop (barely moving). But it still resulted in a jerk. I don't know what these actions do to the car but my common sense tells me it's not a good idea.
What do I know. I just know that my MB experience has proven to both my wife and I that keeping older MB's. A prerequisit though is that one knows which models and which problem with model to look out for. That's where these forums helps out so much..

Jari

Talking about owning a Benz, I bought a 1994 C180 188,000kms last year from a shifty used dealer and had to do quite a bit of jobs to fix things since then. I failed to have it checked by an independent inspector and took it as is. So far, I have had to do the following:-

full lubrication service, oil change, brake fluid change, power steering fluid top up/checks, transmission fluid top up/checks, new OEM air filter and sparks.
Alarm system checked and serviced
aircon checked and serviced.
all brakes checked and missing wear sensors installed.
front bushes looked bad from under, replaced.
all four wheel covers replaced-cosmetic.
windscreen wiper blade replaced.
leaking water pump and noisy tensioner replaced.
worn serp. belt. replaced.
battery totally flat replaced.
blown rear brake lamp replaced.
blown rear ceiling courtesy lamp bulb replaced.
some fuses replaced.
2 leaking vacuum actuators under the dash replaced.
a couple of dash bulbs replaced.
coolant tank cap replaced.
fuel pump and filter replaced, but wasn't necessary. Conned by indie!
replaced whole exhaust system, main muffler went south.
regreased sunroof/moonroof rails.
replaced left front door RV mirror console previously damaged.
replaced radio aerial and plastic trace, popped out.
removed golfball dents in front hood and respray .
resprayed front bumper and side mouldings.

tinted all windows except front as an extra.
put in front and back seat covers.

extra future work:-
change all 4 rotors and pads.
change all 4 shocks, rears have oily traces.
change damaged rear boot locking mech.-still works though.
dash centre airflow roller jammed open permanently-luckily.
alloy rims and wider tyres-now OEM 15"steels with 195s.
change speakers which are not efficient enough.
Have almost new condition Pioneer 12disc CD player Carrozzeria CDX-P1200 for rear boot with missing plastic CD tray and also almost new condition Pioneer High Power Super Tuner 111 , KEH-P4750 waiting to be installed. No speakers yet.

The above fixes were not really major, mostly ignored by hopeless PO.

So anyone out there looking to buy a high mileage Benz, please check it out completely and make sure you have a few spare bucks up your sleeve to do all the required fixes, ignored by the PO.

Just a clarification on the BMW... I was just using it as an example of total ownership cost and why a high-end luxury can be comparatively cheap even with high maintenance costs. I don't really like 'em, honest.

The BMWs I've driven have too much of a gimmicky feel for me. Some of them you can barely see the steering wheel for all the buttons on it.

I also think (a guess) that BMWs are more likely to have been driven hard (ultimate driving machine and all that).

But most importantly, they suffer from the stereotype that their drivers are jerks.

I have a friend who has several newer BMWs (and drives like a jerk, by the way) and whenever I drive one of his cars I can feel the difference in the way other drivers treat me.

No courtesies extended in merging or turning, for example, which of course means you have to muscle your way in like a jerk... and the self-perpetuating cycle continues.

Oh yeah, and their grills are ugly.

__________________
1992 300E Sedan (Sold)
1999 E320 Wagon (Sold)
1995 E320 Sedan
1995 E320 Wagon

Just drove to Tampa and back to watch my young nephew play an Allstar soccer game. Love my E39 540i on the road. We went early and the drive was nice (120 miles). On the way back the traffic was a bear (I-75), partly because there is a home football game for the UofF today.

A big red Dodge truck and I were trying to drive about 10-20mph faster than everyone else and my wife was sleeping. one time when she was awake I pointed out how much better off I was following the truck than the other way around. People moved right out of the way for the truck. For me they moved their slow a** right in front of me at every opportunity. It gets to be a real game.

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Steve Brotherton
Continental Imports
Gainesville FL
Bosch Master, ASE Master, L1
33 years MB technician

I don't have the experience with MBs that you guys have but my used W210 is going on 2 years now. With 83K miles I just put front shocks and new tires on. I had a window regulator go and thats about it.

Don't freak but the kid at the Quick oil change place knows a lot about the car. The first time that I took it in for an oil change I was real nervous, but it needed to be done. The kid knew how to replace the oil filter like it was his own car. I think I'm real lucky. He also knew that it was synthetic only.

I hope this post doesn't jinx me.

I am currently considering a 86-88 560SEL, 300SDL or 81-85 300SD. I hope the one I get is reliable. I think these typically are. As far as the reliability of Japanese cars, I think they are about the best- some of them anyway - even though my grandfathers 1990 Mazda 929 has 172K, but it has blown a head gasket before. I do not think Mitsubishis or the other Mazdas are all that great, but my aunts mother-in-law had a 95 Mirage that had 340K miles that finally died. She drove it on the highway a lot. Ironically, she has a 1993 Mercedes 190e that she bought in 1996, then drove it for a year until the brakes went out, then she decided to park it under pine trees, where it has set for years and is now green from moss. Sounds crazy to me.
Anyway- about the quality of Hondas/Toyotas- I currently have a 1993 Toyota Camry LE V6, with 211K miles and it still runs like brand new. There are NO electrical problems, no rattles or squeaks and the car is built very well, with high quality materials. My old 1991 Honda Accord LX 4dr had about 190K and still ran excellent and was also built with high quality materials. I have also owned other 80s model Honda Accords and Toyota Camrys in the past- some with well over 200K and all running well. In addition, my dad has a 88 Nissan truck with the 3.0L V6 and it has 250,000 and still runs fine. It has NEVER broken down the entire time he had it. He bought it in 99' with 200K from my uncle, who bought it brand new. It was never maintained, but still ran fine. It even still had the original spark plugs until two weeks ago. I must say however, I think the quality of Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans have went down over the past few years however. I have heard of squeak and rattle problems with the new Camry's, Tundra's & Sienna's, as well as other problems with Hondas and Nissans. One good thing though, is that Honda and Toyota now also make some of the safest cars in the world today. Many of their cars earn excellent ratings in NHTSA's crash tests, as well as IIHS's "off-set" crash test.
I also had thought there was a lot of posts here about Mercedes problems, but it could be that this site has had more exposure than other sites. Most all car makes have boards similar to this on the internet. I am actually a member of several other forums very similar to this one. Some include, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Acura and Lexus. I have not yet found a BMW site like this one. I guess all in all- any car can break down, but a Mercedes requires a little more care and maintainence than many other cars.

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2004 Toyota Sequoia Limited 4wd
1991 Lincoln Town Car Executive
1991 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1988 Mercedes 300SEL
1972 Chevrolet Caprice Kingswood Estate 9-passenger wagon
1973 Pontiac Grand Ville
(Prior MB's: 1974 240D, 1985 380SE, 1984 190D, 1993 400SEL)

It seems to me that the experience of any one person or the experience that any one person has heard about, for an MB or any other car, will vary considerably. Some people have good experience, others do not.
An objective way to judge the reliability is from some statistical analysis based upon a large sample. The only such analysis published over a long period of time that I am familiar with is Consumer Reports. When I bought my first MB about 35 years ago, MBs were among the best, if not the best, in the frequency of repair ratings. There were very few Japanese cars in the US then. Now, the Consumer Reports charts show MBs as among the worst. The Japanese cars are the best, in general. That's just a fact.
As far as why that happened, it is probably a combination of the standards rising (that is, the best cars are much better now than 35 years ago) and MBs not keeping up, perhaps because of the increasing complexity of the cars.

My own personal experience with MBs has been entirely with cars owned by someone else before I get them. I have greatly enjoyed driving them, and I think their capabilities have risen consistently and considerably over the years. But there have been many times when I wanted to throw in the towel and say "never again." I think every one of them has had at least some repairs that I thought should not have been necessary, or were premature, or were overly expensive. Of the cars I have had, I think the best was my 1992 300D 2.5 Turbodiesel. But I lost it prematurely due to an accident. Maybe if I had owned it longer it would have needed major repairs, too.

I no longer recommend MBs to my friends as a "reliable" car, as I used to you when I was first driving diesel MBs. I think at one point I was able to brag that I had driven somehing like 250,000 miles without being left at the side of the road.

But I still enjoy them, and I keep buying them despite the costs. Call it a passion, or a hobby, or a bad habit. There is something special about the way they ride and handle.
But I sure do wish I could get another 300D 2.5....

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DavidB29
1992 300E with ASR
35 years of Diesels until now!