"High end" means quality to me, and quality to me means less maintenance. I can see where the maintenance would/could be cost more, but I would contend that a quality car should require less of it.

Like Harley's

The exclusivity has to be backed by quality, otherwise MB's fate will be that of Jaguar -- the brand will simply implode...

Lexus already took a huge chunk of MB's business, and although I am not compelled to buy an expensive Toyota, if MB's quality will drop to that of expensive Toyota, I will go for Lexus. After all, they seem to have at least Toyota's reliability, and my 140 is, really, a nightmare story (although really pretty and comfy one)...

A point that seems to be lost in this debate:

New Mercedes are expensive as compared to your average Ford, Chevrolet, or Honda - that is indisputable.

New Mercedes are incredibly INEXPENSIVE as compared to old Mercedes. A new E350 is roughly $52K in 2007 dolllars.

My '92 400E was roughly $53K in 1992 dollars. This translates to a tab of roughly $76K in today's dollars. Yikes!

My 1983 300CD was a whopping $35K (roughly) when it left the showroom. This translates to tippng the scales at roughly $72K in today's money.

So relatively speaking, new Mercedes have not continued the pricing that one would expect based on historical trends. It should not come as a surprise that since the cars cost approx $25K less, the "feel" of the car may not be what we would hope. But the trade-off is this - who in their right mind would pay in the mid $70s for a standard-issue E Klasse today?

That said, this does not answer the reliability factor. If I purchase any new vehicle - bank-vault-quality "feel" or not, I expect the car to WORK. Were I the proud owner of a new E Klasse who was relegated to driving a C240 loaner on a regular basis whilst my E returned to the dealer for warranty work, I would indeed be very angry.

I am starting to wonder what the posts are like on the 3-Series or 5-Series BMW forums. It seems they have been winning over the experts for years and years. I think as many as 3 generations of the 3-Series have been rated best, at least in terms of driving them. I wonder if they are problematic. My recollection is that they were problematic back in the day, but then improved dramatically, right around the time that Mercedes built the last W124.

I wonder...

MB quality
 

Keep in mind that most of the front end of a new Benz is made of aluminum, a weight saving method. I drive a new ('07) E550 and find the quality higher than any of the last 26 cars I have owned. In my business we tend to want a higher quality auto with little regard to cost. I have a feeling that the folks at MB are doing a rather excellent job with their cars.and they are making quality improvements on each new model.

I need a job in a business like that! I am leaving Big Pharma. They don't care at all about my car!

So because on a Ferrari Enzo brakes cost $10k, and a service is like $20k, its a POS? My moms Rav4 that costs zero to maintain is a better car?

Complicated cars cost more to maintain, more to break.

I thought the plastic grill felt cheap and unsupported.
Have you opened the hood up and closed it?
You can see that MB is improving in many areas of the car, the brakes for example.
I just wanted to make a comment that overall the car felt cheap and tin can like and felt that MB was cutting corners in some areas.

Off and on I have been reading the 3-series forums, as I plan to get one in about two years/40,000 miles (the dub has to go to 200K). They have their problem areas but seem to be generally reliable. Some have said they're a genuine 300K car. I expect 300K from my Benz, even though it's an M-class. However the BMWs are more sporting, and available with a stick shift!

I am getting started over there on the BMW forums too. I think a slightly used 3-Series BMW may be in my future. It will be a little difficult to walk away from my car, but I think it might be the more sensible thing to do.

I know this is an old thread, but here is something I noticed...

A lot of the guys that say, "my mercedes never left me stranded before", "they are super reliable", "i never had any problems before", etc. If you click on there profile and "view other posts", they post, IN DETAIL, how to fix various problems and solutions that other members have. Hmm...

So what I want to know is how do THEY know this information if there Mercedes has "never let them down before", "never have problems", etc.? Hmmm....

A: they have had to perform the procedure themselves on there own car, but dont want to admit it.

B: they read other peoples posts on the forum and relay the information sounding like they are an "expert" but have never actually done it themselves before.

Just curious...

Good question............your curiosity has relevance here.

Here is one answer....
 

I think a lot of people have had other cars, besides Benzes, that left them stranded. Even my relatively new Audi has done that. Though I work on the Benz, it's more like having an airplane - fixing things that need to be fixed, yet the car has never ever left me with a critical failure. The Audi has died on me on the road a couple of times. There is only ONE time my W126 (560 SEL) has not started - after returning from a several week vacation the battery had run down. The car is 1989, and I bought it in 2001, so that's seven years experience.

There is also the other issue of just how long parts last. On the Audi the rotors lasted - gulp! - 17,000 miles. I know I can expect more miles out of the rotors I just put on the Benz.

Anyhow, that's part of the story I think....

My MB has never let me down before. But I will be doing the left front wheel bearing this weekend, so that it won't let me down.

Cheap POS wheel bearing only lasted 21 years and 270k miles, what a POS. Its going to cost me like $40 to replace, junker off to buy a Toyota!:D;)

I guess I am one of those guys.
 

I have owned my 1995 E320 W124 for a little more than 12 years. I have had all kinds of things wrong for a few years now that I thought would have to be addressed, but the car just keeps on going. My head gasket leaks oil, front timing cover leaks oil, wiring harness is cracked and exposed in areas, the transmission has a shift flair, and there is a leak at the AC compressor, but the car just keeps on going.

Although I do lose a bit of oil over time, a fresh oil change and I am OK again. I also adjusted the vacuum modulator and Bowden cable to reduce the shift flair. I figure I will do the wiring harness when I finally have to do the head gasket and timing cover. The AC seems to work OK with a fresh charge each summer. My friend drove his 190E with oil in his coolant for 60 or 70K miles without incident. I don’t intend to do the same, but it really was remarkable.

It really does seem to be true that the cars can go and go, even when they do have some or even many issues. That is one very big reason to be careful if you buy a used W124. For me it may not be so bad to pay the money to fix so many expensive things, after 12 years of ownership. Can you imagine, however, how bad it would feel to buy a beautiful looking car like mine and then have to pay as much or more than you just paid for the car to fix everything. Buyers beware!

Doesn't look or feel broken, but it is.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3039/...61489f8a_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2363/...5dfd7965_o.jpg

I bought mine because I wanted a well built solid car. I couldn't afford a new one and am now rejuvenating a 1990 420 SEL that I love- PO just added gas and changed the oil once in awhile....almost finished with the much needed repairs and its a grand car. I also purchased an 87' 560 SL from a fellow forum member who took meticulous care of the car and it shows. To answer your question yes they are out there but you have to check the service records for a good one.

How long do parts/cars last. My E550 is a real runner.Is it possible that if bought new your Benz will last longer than a used MB? Do people get sell their cars when they have a lemon?

Hmm... Ok, you guys fall under option C then. :D The car has never left you stranded, but you have to do minor or major repairs or service it in the driveway, indy, etc.

Hattersguy - did you buy the car new or used? If my memory is correct, when you change the rotors on a w126, you normally repack the bearings because you have to take the inner seal, etc. apart to change the rotors.

So with 200,000+ miles, you probably have changed the rotors before so it would have gotten repacked with fresh grease. This helps them last longer. So yes it is more of a pain in the rear to change rotors but there is a good side to it as well. So that is one explaination to why they tend to last longer...

Oh yeah, I too fall under option C. But On my Honda, I RARELY have to do any work to it. Change the oil, tranny fluid, wiper blades, and some brake pads. Thats about as technical as its gotten in 10 yrs and 150,000 miles.

NEVER buy a british car, they are junk....

On the front rotors yes, on the rear rotors no. I'll probably replace the rear bearings this winter just because they are original. They lasted so long because they were well made, MB doesn't used junk parts. Thats why you can buy 3-4 normal cars for the price of an S class. Or in my case 5 of my moms Rav4 would cost the same as a pretty loaded S550.:D

I had the pleasure of driving my moms new Rav4 all day today. Actualy I only drove it in the morning because I couldn't stand it.:D I will happily pay whatever it costs to fix a MB to avoid one of those things, yuck.

British cars are rather nice when they are running, you have to like them. A properly sorted Royce or Jag is a real treat to drive. Nothing sounds like a Jag I6 on its cam's or pulls like the ancient RR 6.75 V8.

If you want to play you have to pay.:cool::D

Yeah the w126 and w123 (which i own 2 of) have the same type of bearing/brake setup. I changed did the front rotors and wheel bearing last summer on BOTH cars. That is the problem with having 2 of them, you have to do the job twice, haha. I never been in a RAV, so dont know. I like the Honda CRV over the benzs because its 4wheel drive, uses gas which is cheaper than diesel at $4.40/gallon here, has cd player, AC system that is cold, reliable, etc. I really didnt like it at first, but i love it now. Plus the seats fold down, so I can haul more stuff if nessesary.

I also own a rolls royce shadow. Yes they are good when they are working, but mine has so many issues that pop up from time to time its not even funny. Mine is clean and in good condition and all, but so many nick nack problems come up that make the car unpleasent to drive. It does turn a lot of heads and stuff when I do drive it though...

My friend almost bought a 996 from someone last year and he had a super mint 1997 Silver Spur that RR turbo charged. He also had a work in progress Silver Cloud. We took the Spur for a ride and it was a blast! Made my SDL feel like a POS. He told me the Spur wasn't to bad to own, he has a machanic that goes through it whenever its in the shop so everything is taken care of.

I like RR and Bentley's, what year is yours? You can still get factory matched leather and wood for them RR keeps it on file.

Yep the spur would be a better daily driver. It is more modern in design and electronics and its not that old. Especially a 1997. WIth the shadows, clouds, etc. you will get into rusty floor pans, brittle wiring, and other "restoration work". Kind of like how our w126 and w123 is approaching 25+ years old.

I have a 1974 Shadow. It is original and has the am/fm and 8 track player :D It has points (electronic igntion wasnt used until 1975/1976). It only gets 8-10 mpg and requires premium fuel. It costs $115 per tank of fuel and will only go 250-300 miles for that price :D

Its great for car shows, turning heads, having strangers approach you for questions, etc. but for a daily driver, I prefer my Honda or Benz. At least I KNOW for a FACT my honda will start EVERYTIME and I dont have to deal with VAPOR LOCK and other issues with older carberator cars. Also, RR/Bentlys are big cars and hard to parallel park in downtown or other areas.

Did you friend buy the Spur? Is he a memeber of the rolls royce club? there address is www.rroc.org.

Don't do any work either on my 94 Accord and it has over 500,000+ miles with original engine. Only basic maintenance like fluids, brakes etc. Hondas go on forever till you grow tired of them.

No it wasn't for sale, we were just playing with it.:D He actualy didn't buy the 996 either which is why we were originaly their.

I wonder if there are any mercedes owner who can make the same claim about the benzes ! :D

Well so far, my 300TD is running like new with 268000 miles, only basic clutch and brake job done. The OM616 turbo on my Gurkha is almost brand new after 115,000 miles, the engine compression is same as it was new. MBs last quite long, specially the body as long as some TLC is done on them, speaking of TLC, the Land Cruiser can last quite long with basic care and so do Subarus.

You won't catch me driving a 21 year old Honda/Toyota any day ;)

My 300TE has been dead reliable. It only left it stranded once as the Alternator died and I was not aware that when all the lights on the dash are illuminated, it means the battery of alternator is low. It has misfired all along...yes...but I am about to resolve that in the next few days (hopefully) as I am in the process of putting the engine back in.

reliability
 

Someone may have already pointed this out but I don't have the patience to read through all the posts to find out.

I occurs to me that the vast majority of threads in this forum are present because people have problems with which they need help. Almost no-one starts a thread that simply says what a good and reliable car they have. This is a maintenance forum after all. I'll bet if you go to a similar Honda forum, you would have the same impression of unreliability with that brand.

If there were a way of tallying it up, I think you would find that MB has fewer customer issues than most.

I do not think of my MB as troublesome and its 21 years old. Other than an occasional sticking right rear brake, I cannot think of any major problems it has. Even the A/C still works, as does the locks, windows, lights and even the power antenna! It dont smoke, does not leak any fluids, nor does it burn any oil (not yet anyway- it is an M103 300SEL). :)

I like the old Japanese cars too... have had several 80s-early 90s Toyotas and Hondas with well over 200K. In fact, my 1991 Lexus LS400 has 217K and still runs like new. My old 1990 LS400 had 267K when I sold it.... still ran like brand new.

I have owned Mercedes since 1980. I have never had a problem with any of them untill I decided to buy the cheapest model. The C280 Sport that hasnt been any real issues only stupid little things such as interior parts that break. I would never buy another W202 but I have had 7 Mercedes in my life and I will continue to keep buying more. Long lasting reliable and good quality.

Lots of interesting discussion (I only made it about 20 pages then I skipped to the end). I think every car will have it's problems like has been said here. One thing I believe is that an initially expensive car (like our Mercedes, BMWs, etc) will be taken good care of in the beginning since it is expensive. I've owned two BMW e28 535i's and now two Mercedes Benz's (a W116 450 SEL and my "new" '90 W124 300e) and generally they have great documentation, a service book full of notes from the dealership about services, etc. Try buying a 20 year old Chevy or Ford with those kind of papers. The cars are built with better materials, generally better attention to detail and, again, generally better maintained because they are what they are. The key is catching a car before a layman or shadetree mechanic (no disrespect, I consider myself one) owns it and either ignores the problems or tries to "fix" their way around them.

I got the 300e really cheap because the last owner didn't want to pay the $700 or so the indy said it would cost to replace the water pump the right way. Turns out, I put a new fuel pump and filter into it too and fixed a bunch of stuff myself. If I had bought it one owner prior it probably would've been better, of course I wouldn't have bought it for the cost of an installed water pump then though. One of the best things about these cars (at least up to the W124 vintage, haven't had anything newer) is that you can work on them yourself and they're pretty "common sense". If you look at most things and think about how they should work, that's how they work. That's what I enjoy most about the e28 BMWs too.

FWIW I have owned a few Hondas and liked them but I currently have an '88 Civic my son drives to college and it's the most problematic car we've ever had. I tried to hang onto the belief they're super reliable but that car's left a bit of a bad tast in my mouth. There's good and bad from all the manufacturers and sometimes there's no rhyme or reason to it.

The longer they last, the more things wear out.

bump ! :)

My 86 560SEL has 177,XXX miles on right now. So far I have replaced the tranny, timing chain, front shocks, water pump a couple times, brake rotors a few times, and a few other things. So far the car still runs like new and lot of power. The only bad side is the gas mileage is horrible.

2003 called...

a/c compressor
 

I'll be replacing the a/c compressor on the silver 1995 E300 this coming weekend. It has finally given up the ghost after 15 years and 260k miles.

i have a spare compressor on the shelf...just in case it goes on any of our cars.....

did the job once.... a few years ago..... wasn't that hard.... it was more difficult doing the expansion valve....

relaibility
 

From my ownership experience The early 60's and 70's models were very dependable . The last of my Mercedes, a 126 300se . does require much more preventative and ongoing work . Now the old Corolla used as a runabout has been the most reliable from day one. Unmatched reliability and Minimum maintainance.

mak

220S 111
230 110
280S 108
300SEL 3.5 109
300Se 126

Lancia Favia
peninfarina coupe never runs

Some long-term Japanese car owners seem to suffer from memory loss - when they say there is nothing beyond oil change maintenance on their cars with hundreds of thousands of miles on them.

Why?

electrical gremlins
 

Mostly its the electrical problems that can a problem, Example the fuel pump relay's and OVP in 124 ,.126 cars that can leave the car UN-dependable.
Utter reliability was mostly with the 60;s and 70's models from my experience and ownership of those models.
mak

i have a "run" bag in my car... actually all cars.

spare ovp, spare fuel pump relay, spare klima relay, assorted bulbs and fuses.

Personally, as a comparison: Year for year, a Mercedes model feels nicer to drive than a Honda/Toyota. What I mean is that it feels nicer driving a 1987 mercedes than a 1987 toyota/Honda/gm etc. In fact it feels nicer to drive a 1987 mercedes than a 1997 or even 2000 model Toyota/Honda/Gm. That alone says much about the retention of class, value of one car compare to another. But I would have to agree that a rusty distintegrating 1987 Toyota/Honda can fetch several thousand $ more than a similar benz on the used car lot. By way, I rarely see a 1987 Toyota/Honda/GM on the road anymore, but I see plenty of Mercedes.

I have own 10 MB's over the years, some bought as new, some leased, mostly used. I've always liked them but many have been problematic.

86 300E bought new for my wife's birthday. Great driving car, smooth, tracked the road so much better than the 84 Porsche 911 I had at the time. By the time I sold it 6 years and 86K miles later, the head gasket and front seal were leaking like crazy and the front suspension needed an overhaul.

98 C230 leased. Never had a problem but the car was boring.

99 ML320 leased. Had to go to the dealer every month for repairs, rear window, driver's window, sun roof, climate control, wipers wouldn't work, heated seats stopped working. Then the POS drank a quart of oil every 1000 miles at 18K and the POS dealer said it was within spec. Finally at 29K the POS drank a quart every 300 miles and MB warrantied a ring job and gave me a POS Corolla as a loaner. I swore of new MB's after this one.

84 300D, my first diesel w 117K mmiles and drove it to 170K miles. Found out that the PO had rigger the odometer so it had more miles than it showed. Leaked water, rusting everywhere. I must have spent $4500 on the POS over 4 years. Got me thinking that I would like the 300D if I found a better conditioned one.

85 300SD, big and slow, leaked water when it rained, fogged defroster. Bought w 115K for $4200 and sold it w 155K for $5700 three years later at the height of the bio-conversion craze. Water pump, radiator neck broken. Preferred the 300D, kids hated diesel and hated the SD even more, back to gas.

94 E320 w 72K miles. I figured with low mileage I was good to go but the tranny failed a month later for $2500 for a rebuilt. I love the way the W124 drove. Left my son stranded, needed a new starter. Outside Temp gauged failed. Ran rough and I changed the spark plug connectors. Changed engine coils. Water pump, radiator. Sold with 120K. Head gasket always leaked.

95 E320 Wagon w 125K miles. Loved this wagon but head gasket always leaked. Then the dreaded evaporator went so the car had to go.

97 E420 w 122K, now has 170K after 3 years. Damn tranny went after 9 months. Rebuilt cost me freakin' $4000 as it has an electronic controlled tranny. The new one would mess up twice a year and I had my indy drain the tranny oil from control module every 4-5 months. Finally changed the updated part to stop this nonsense. So far changed ignition tumbler, brake stop which affected the ABS and ASR. Front suspension work. Driver's sde and rear view mirrors had to be replaces as the dimmer liquid leaked and made them splotchy.

88 300CE w 115K miles. Loved the Coupe design but this car was flawed so it had to go.

83 300D back to diesel with a one owner car w 111K miles. Great car. This is the diesel I had been looking for and is a marvel. Cruises beautifully at 80mph on the highway and 33mpg on summer diesel. Now has 130k miles after 15 months and I have only changed the oil and the front disc pads. No leaks! But alas, the a/c went after 10 months.

I still like Mercedes but you have to be lucky and look hard to find one in good condition that has been taken care of. I love the W124 but I would never subject myself to their failed head gasket and evaporator. I never had a harness problem but who wants to mess with that? It is probably better to get a W124 8 cylinder. Too many tranny problems and potential for expensive repairs. My 83 300D has brought me make into the fold but it is hard to find a good one at a reasonable price. If I go gas again, I think I would go for a BMW E34. I never had a problem with the 93 525i I had from 132k TO 195K, only had to change the middle muffler and the a/c was ice cold. I just can't think of an E-Class gas model that didn't have a plethora of known defaults.

Peace out.

So one big problem and you threw each of the cars away? :confused:
You would have saved so much money in the long run if you just fixed the issue. Most of your cars were W124's....They have their issues, but once they are resolved, that is about it. There is a reason that you go to the junkyard and 80% of the cars there have easily over 200k on them. I've seen a couple at almost 300k!!

Yeah but 80% of the 300D Class diesels have 300-500K on them. They last longer and are easier to fix. The W124's drive great but the potential landmine of cost to repair the known defaults of wire harness $400-600, head gasket $1100-1500 and evaporator $3500-4500 is too much a burden for anyone to bear. Are you kidding me? Even you know that head gasket repair jobs don't hold. I've heard many that the head gasket repairs don't last. Tranny cost also are not cheap, so it not a matter of simply fixing it, you have to ask yourself what else is going to cost me big? I don't think it ever pays to do the evaporator job. You are paying 85-100% of the value of the car for that one repair.

Got an e-mail stating there is a new post on this thread, but now that I'm here I can't see it. Good opportunity to say the old MeL just about has 220,000 miles on it. Still runs and drives like the day we got it, if it looks just a little worse for the wear. Well what do you expect for me driving it, and four kids riding around in it? Really in good shape, though the radio is acting up. Will install a new Pioneer headunit with an XM tuner and a subwoofer this weekend if I get to it.

Just got a 2004 545i to replace the (troublesome, rusty, old, noisy, yet still fun 221,000 mile) VW. The posts on the E60 forums are similar to the posts here--some people have problems, others do not, quite a few people want to modify theirs, as if they can improve upon such a well engineered car. I'm absolutely fascinated with this car! Perfect balance between sportiness and comfort, and wonderfully complex in certain ways. I wonder if this isn't the spiritual successor the W124, even if it isn't a Mercedes. Quietest car I'd even been in; quickest car I'd ever owned. Absolutely superb on snow and ice, except when the snow gets deep. Best of all, still available with a 6-speed manual transmission!

Has the quality improved somewhat on the newer models ?