Japanese inspections
 

In Japan, almost all cars get junked, or sold overseas, no matter what the make, due to the extreme severity and expense of the inspection they have to go through when they are four years old. This is also why Japanese cars go through a four-year model cycle.

Momo

on and on and..
 

when i lived Germany and Spain safety was the only issue.state inspection was for rust,any noticed, fix it or no license tag. MB and BMW were the only to last more than 5 years without the owners selling to the GI's who were exempt from the rules.
the question is... what manufacture has automobiles still on the road 20,30 years maybe 40 years .and there are still guys crying the blues their 25 year auto doesn't cut it.
i would agree looking at this and other forums, after 1990 ,maybe ,the DIY is not in an good position to fix much.

I'm kinda surprised no one has mentioned this...we have a whole forum devoted to it

(...For those of us that live in the US...)


If you want a diesel-powered car, **no one else sells one ** save MB and VW. Are there other diesels out there ? yes (GM, Isuzu, toyota...none full sized though). and calling a Jetta "full-sized" is kinda pushing it IMHO. Diesel truck ? okay, I'll cave on that one, credit the power/image hungry 'Mericans for that one. I dont think everyone considers Full size trucks and full size cars interchangeable.
Not everyone wants a diesel, and I'm not going to argue reasoning, I'm just saying that if you want a Diesel car, new or used, it's gonna say MB or VW on it.

-John

On the subject of reliability:

A young friend of mine (college age) has (I think) a Toyota. 93, about 100,000 miles on it, has replaced this year both axle shafts, a clutch, front struts, and front control arms. He drives it fairly hard, but even so I'd not think a Benz would have had this sort of stuff done, most of it would last 200,000 instead.

He's supposed to come out later this week to investigate a steering wander (no point in trying to look under the car at night on the street) -- steering rack worn out?

Peter

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Yikes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Got another window regulator shot agian today, the 5th one since purchasing this piece of ****e. Drove two hours home with window open on the freeway. :mad:
Isn't Mercedes so F**King touble free. Gotta take it down to the dealer tomorrow. Good thing that I have automatic payment for my account at the dealership.*:cool:

*Please excuse my tone of voice. Just trying to blow off some disapointing steam.

I wonder whether the mechanical lifters they might still put in euro models fail like the power lifters.

Back when the cars had both the mechanical ones never failed while the power ones failed at rates that have stayed the same for different reasons. Since the actual lift mechanism was similar there was only one logical answer....maintenance.

The mechanical lifters go lubed when they go so stiff they couldn't move freely. With the electric,the worse that such lack of lube created was a slightly slower window and bent linkages.

It used to be part of yearly service to lube the window channels. It should probably be done as part of detailing as yearly is too little in hot weather, maybe even cold weather.

Steve: The only reason I purchased a Mercedes is its low maintenace requierments. I think there are a lot of owners with a lot of time on their hands. My car has required no adjustments whatsoever. This is a good thing. Pete

I was told the right-rear on the 201 and 124 cars most frequently fail. It is guessed that is due to a car most likely being parked where rain would drain into the cable-regulator setup and corrode the motor and its worm gear.

This is the only one I have replace.

Haasman

Believe ALL new cars are just Accords / Camrys with
 

different badges, grillwork, and price tags.

Believe all Mercedes-Benz built post '85 are just "ordinary" cars riding on the MB reputation, polluted with too much electronics and other stuff analygous to the human appendix which you never miss until it goes wrong.

I had to replace BOTH within a year of the other's demise. And the left one went out first. And rain in Texas is infrequent anyway.

Also, there was nothing wrong with the cable assembly or motor...the little $2 plastic track slider self-destructed in both units! :rolleyes:

My right rear on my 124 didn't work when I got the car. The switch was bad so I replaced it. Still didn't work. Took the regulator out with normal blood loss for a Mercedes job(:p ). Worm gear was corroded to the cheap plastic gear and had stripped it out. I swear that thing looked like something from a sunken ship!! IMHO it's a pretty cheezy design for a $45,000 car.

The early rear window regulators on W201's went through at least two redesigns. We had to have ours replaced (under warranty) twice. Eventually the problem was fixed and we had no further trouble until we sold our 18 year old 190D.

The only window problem I've had with my '91 300E is that the switches need to be worked occasionally.

I believe that Mercedes began to fall off after 1992 when the company was no longer controlled by engineers. Up until that time, the engineers designed the car BEFORE it was priced.

Keep in mind that muffler bearings on the 303 @411 tend to completely lock up and the car can only be driven in reverse for no more than 10 miles. If you don't do this exactly the engine will blow up and the entire car will have to be repaired at a cost of over $100,000.

Just developed bad vacuum lock on one of the doors in the 190E. Noticed that a recent thread has been developed regarding the same exact issue.
Yet another expense that I've never had to bother with my corolla ! :mad:
I wonder why mercedes used the vacuum locks to begin with. could someone elaborate on that.. ?

Hmm... maybe part of the reason you haven't had that expense with your 1987 Corolla is that (if I'm not mistaken) your Corolla has manual door locks?

So, the good news is your MB is working just as well as your Corolla that you like to compare it to... just reach over and pull that lock up by hand! :)


I don't know why MB uses vacuum door locks. I had a VW Jetta that also did if I remember correctly. Maybe in theory it is more reliable than an electromechanical system, though I don't know if that's proven true in practice. Or maybe they just do it to be different... nice smooth movement instead of the nasty inelegant electromechanical clunk. :) I'd be curious to know the reason too.

According to M.B., they use vacuum door locks as they operate smoothly and noiseless (as you have guessed).

Although, in my opinion, Mercedes-Benz uses them because they are just plainly more complicated and difficult to repair (if they fail). As a general rule, this is their motto for all operating systems and electronics.

By the way, the only models available in Europe with mechanical lifters today are: A-class, G-class (standard version), and the V-class (Viano).

The C/E/S-classes all come standard with power windows now.

Cap'n I ordered a window regulator for my Euro 500SE as bottom 10 or so teeth were stripped was very suprised it was only 34 dollars. When I got it is was Euro wind up type as I forgot to tell Phil the car had power windows,the joke was the the metal was about twice as thick as the power regulator witch was well over a hundred dollars . I ended up welding metal in where the stripped teeth were and cutting new teeth with a thin cut off wheel on a die grinder works like new. I made a copper patern from the good teeth to work from.My guess is that they used vacum for locks as there are so many ele.item already on an MB.......
William Rogers.......

You guys make me feel like the luckiest person in the world. I've had a '80 300SD since '90 and have driven it 130,000+ miles. I have spent ~$3000 in repairs which I have done most of myself. Most expensive repair was the transmission but that was my fault for putting the vacuum hoses back on incorrectly.

So then this guy comes along with a '79 300SD for $1200. It ran good and I thought it would be worth it for a parts car. Then, since it ran so well but was somewhat rusty, I decided to use it for a wintercar as I always put the '80 away for the winter. So that was 5 years ago and it still going after 54,000 miles I put on for a total of 214,000 miles.

How much have I apent on it: ~$250. It hasn't needed any repairs to engine or drive train. Only thing done to engine was valve adjustments and the second one after 25,000 miles, all the valve clearances were in spec and none needed adjustment. It needed a new exhaust system so instead of buying new, I had 2 pipes custom bent and welded on the old muffler. Cost, ~$30 instead of the ~$300 it would have cost by buying new parts. My cost per mile so far comes out to about 1/2 cent for repairs. and its still going strong and never left me down.

So an older MB can be the lowest cost car to drive. You just have to get the right one which is an all iron engine Diesel.

P E H

MB has used other locking systems in the past -- just ask any 600 Grand owner. If you think vac systems are a pain, try hydraulic!

MB has used vac locks for a VERY long time, just how long I dont' know, but early 60's anyway. They are usually less trouble than electric, and cannot stick and run the battery down. Just an engineering decision. I like them better than electric, that CLONK of the locks operating annoys me.

Peter

I asked an MB engineer about those vacuum locks. He looked at me like I was nuts to dare to question the engineering prowess of the mighty Mercedes-Benz. His explanation was that the vacuum door locks operate even if the battery was disconnected or the electrical system was disabled. This was safer in the event that you had to be rescued from a wreck.

I also asked about the lack of variable intermittent settings on the wiper. This was before the rain sensor was introduced. He again raised his brow at me, and replied "the five second interval is the correct one."

I wish I had his name and phone number so that I could ask about all the new cars with electrical door locks.

Hmm... interesting point about operating without a battery, though if my battery is dead I'm not sure having to reach over to open a different door by hand is my primary inconvenience.

I'm not sure about the safer-in-a-wreck thing either. I guess if your car is on fire and your electrical system is smashed, your front door is crunched and won't open, you're pinned in your seat so you can't reach any door lock but the driver's side... and yet despite all this massive damage the windows are intact and all the doors locked. So you feebly reach over and are rewarded with the smooth rise of vacuum door locks so that... so that... a rescuer who was too wussy too break a window can open a door and read you your last rites or something? I dunno. Seems far-fetched.

But, I have to agree about the "clonk"... that's the word I was looking for. :)


He again raised his brow at me, and replied "the five second interval is the correct one."

LOL! You have to admire conviction. Design by some wishy-washy committee would result in a wishy-washy car. :)

After owning several sixties and seventies sedans and presently owning an 89 560SL and 96 S320 I can say, from personal experience only, Quality has gone down under the three pointed star since about 1990. Yes, 1990 was about the time Mercedes became conserned with cost of production as well as quality, and it is necessary to have a black bottom line to stay in business. We have yet to have problems with either of the current Mercedes in our garage, but I am waiting. We bought the S class used with 77K on it a year ago. It is my wife's driver and a lthough as I said we have yet to have a problem, I can see the potential is there. Mercedes quality is just not what it used to be.
If the S turns into a money pit, restoring a 67 or so S or SE may be the answer. 108's from the late sixties seem to be the best drivers I have ever had.

It is very intersting how some members can pinpoint an exact date of when quality started to go down the drain at Mercedes-Benz.

I say this because M.B. cars have long life cycles, which used to expand around ten years (+/-). Today, these cycles are shorter.

But the fact is: If you bought a Benz car in the 90's, it was for sure designed and thought out in the 80's.

In my opinion, it was in the very early 90's that M.B. decided to let costs run over engineering excellence. Hence, all the actual car lines are the ones who really are realiability nightmares and cheaply finished.

Now M.B. have realized its big mistake and its trying to solve the problem (just look at the W220 facelift).

I think it's impossible to truly pin down a "date." Some things have done nothing but get better. My C230's ACC works better and blows colder than any W201 or W124 will ever muster, much less the tepid systems from W123 era cars.

Some electronics have improved dramatically. I have yet to find legions of late model car owners with cruise control systems failing over and over again. I had a hard time finding a W201/W124/W123 owner with working CC.

In terms of engine management and efficiency, the new cars are wonders. They get better mileage, make more power, and work for ages without any adjustment or other intervention. Some emission requirments have forced some components to become more fragile (ALL makers struggle with MAS/AMM's today) but for the most part, fuel and ignition systems have become very long lived and reliable.

Interior components have degraded in quality. The Tex in my car is cheap compared to my old 190E's. The dash and other materials in the W202 are very robust and I thought even better than the lighter plastic in the W210 we owned, but the trend was clear: less. Look at the glove-box door in the W203 vs. previous cars. Yick.

And so on... It's a matter of degrees...

I work in the service Dept of a very large Toyota Dealership, and you will be amazed to hear that the 40 odd techs we employ are not getting fat & lazy sitting around doing nothing, and I am not talking about regular maintenance! In the last couple of years Toyota has in my opinion become quite complacent and this has resulted in several models in the last couple of years needing very expensive (in the many thousands) warranty upgrades.
However I have never worked at any Brand dealership where easily half of the mechanical repair vehicles that come in on any given day have such high mileage, and owner satisfaction. The one thing that they have in common is that they are `Toyota owners`. They look at my C230 with140,000 miles, (I still stand and stare at it in the driveway like a kid !) and they say : My wife wouldn`t let me/ What would the neighbors say/ What about the insurance/ I wish I had one/ I need something practical and so on. The point being Guys, you put yourselves in this position by buying the damned thing, so pony up,or paint yourself grey, we have a lot full of Camrys with your name on!

Amen, halleluja, etc., etc., .
Couldn't have said it any better myself ! ;)

I just got off the phone with my cousin, and she has a 1992 500E. She loves her car, and except for a W211 E55, probably wouldn't trade it for anything. That said, she does have some interesting observations about W124 "quality:"

1. She finds the interior materials the best of any car she has personally been in. The leather is cracked and faded, but this is a 12 year old car. Other than that, it looks like new inside. She has had ML and W203 C-Class loaner cars, and finds the interiors much more modern, but don't look as robust.

2. She has had many expensive repairs, many more than the Japanese products she has owned. This, to her, is not a quality gap, but the price she has to pay for owning such a car. She did think she would be disappointed if she had to shell out the same operating dollars for a C-Class or other "normal" MB. She is also disappointed at the inability of the dealer to diagnose problems given that the driveline in the 500E is not a unique set-up, but also found in other models.

3. She would like the 500E to have better electrical components. Her old Honda had power toys that didn't break, and so should the Benz. She has had issues with the sunroof, rear windows, seat heater switches, blower motor, cruise control, and the ACC PBU. The reason she is angry about it is that even after being repaired, they break again quickly. The dealer is quick to blame her when she asks that question. "Don't let snow get on the car, as that wrecks the blower motor." Huh? We live in CANADA, MORON!

4. She also wonders why the car runs so hot and has barely-adequate AC. She spent part of the summer in Arizona and Nevada this year, and the car ran very hot, and the AC struggled to keep the interior cool. It's fine in Canada, but she wondered if MB engineering was all it's cracked up to be.

Now, the great thing about Jan is that she is a realist. She paid about the same for her 500E as you would for a new Accord, but understands the age of the car, and is willing to put up with that. She doesn't expect it to run precisely like a new car. However, she is right in her expectation that what gets fixed should stay fixed for more than a few months. The real question is who's fault that is. Is it MB's or the dealer's?

blackmercedes

The latest survey I read, conducted by the CAA, rated VW & M-B dealers pretty much at the bottom of the barrel.
That may answer you last question.
Personally, I'm a little sceptical about any body telling you not to get snow on the car.

with the ongoing problems of central locking systems, I've just read a thread where the owner of the 400SE has problems with the vaccum system. one thing that didn't croos my mind earlier, which the owner seems to be experiencing now is... when the central locking system fails while in the locked position, the gas door is locked as well. how does one open that up .. ? I know the locks would upen up manually, even without the battery connected as someone mentioned but what about the gas door... ?..
here's the thread just incase .. http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?threadid=74853

I thought it was "if at first you don't succeed try try a gun"
William Rogers.......

Benz300

There is a manual release procedure, outlined I believe in your owner's manual.

Basically, you pull back the right side trunk liner and pull the fuel filler door latch manually.

Granted, pulling back the interior trunk liner can be a pain, but when you need fuel ...

Haasman

William.. :)
good one ! but I was trying to get the info for another gentleman on the forum. perhaps I should give him the same advice !:D

WOW, I just read through the nine(9) pages of this thread. My, My. Cap't carageous, (along with a couple others) with all due respect, stop whinning, it's very unbecoming to a Mercedes enthusiast. Please do yourself a favor and get "cagageous enough" to purcahse a 1998, 1999 Mercedes E420. You won't be disapointed. It's a rocket, reliable and in my opinion one of the best looking and best used car buys in it's class, period. (If there is another car in it's class). Drive it for awhile and then comment about it. Also, if you want to have uncomprimissed true mercedes driving pleasure, compared to any two seater out there, buy a used Mercedes SL. Again, it's a tank and you won't be disapointed. You will then know what the mercedes experience is all about. Well, that's my opinion on this thread. By the way all comments were very enjoyable to read.

Thanks

Can't get much better than the V8. And they're about the same price as the six in the northeast. I can't understand why someone would rather have a six then an eight? The fuel economy is almost the same in my '97 E420, as it was in the '95 E320 wagon my mother owned. About 25 mpg around town, and 27.5 mpg highway. Plus they sound awesome, and pull like heck on the highway.

Also, why would anyone buy the diesel, if they could have the V8 instead? The E420 is a very proven engine, and I have seen some with over 300K miles on them running strong.

Although I have diesels but I have made sure they weren't slow by any measure. If you ever see a nautical-blue 300SDL, or smoke silver 350SD going by at 100mph + with a christian symbol on the back in the NH coastal area, you'll know it's me.:D

The problem with the E300 is that the injector pump is monitored by a computer. Can't fool around with fuel delivery there, all that can be done is for it to be chipped.:mad:

Bruce,
I agree with you on the SL comment. however somehow Mercedes didn't keep tall people in mind when building such a fine car. Anyone above 6'2 has problems fitting in the driving seat. but then again it's the same case with the boxter, z3. and forget the SLK. that wont even fit someone 6 feet. So I wonder. what do people above 6' drive when they need a two seater convertible ? obviously not SL...

My Dad is 6'2" and fits fine in his R107 450SL.

As for the complexity issue, I love the quote from J.L.K. Setright (a car magazine writer), that "Mercedes would never use one part where two parts would do."
As for the vacuum door locks, I have enough trouble and expense from repairing them as they age that I would much rather tolerate the slight noise of electric locks. And as for reliability, I have had a damn sight more vacuum door lock failures than battery failures. (I have never heard of anyone with electric locks having to repair them. From my 35 years of MB experience, vacuum is more likely to leak from old brittle tubing and fittings than electrons are to leak from decently made wire.) Plus, my two W124 sedans have both had lock failure modes in which the lock's vacuum pump keeps running after the car is shut off, keeping the locks shut so you cannot get into or out of the car without overpowering 9and probably damaging) the locks. Now THAT is a royal PIA.

rust protection is quite good on my benx, an 88 300e; for a 15 year old car, theres only a few spots that have appeared.

many toyota owners tell me that although their cars functioned flawlessly with little maintenance, they rusted from arsehole to appetite after ten years.

therefore, the longer the car stays in "one peice" the lower the cost per kilometer to run if the body and motor stay in one piece. its the periphery systems that seem to age poorly, like climate control and luxury items. but the motor and body remain solid for decades.

From this week's Automotive News
 

Bugs bite Mercedes quality
Glitches lead to go-slower approach

By Diana T. Kurylko
Automotive News / September 15, 2003

FRANKURT -- Top executives at Mercedes-Benz admit that a wave of increasingly complex electronic products proved so difficult to debug that the German automaker is modifying its first-at-all-costs approach to technology.

Quality glitches caused by Mercedes' Comand system proved maddeningly difficult to fix two years ago, forcing the automaker to boost product testing by 50 percent.

Problems with Comand, which integrates the onboard navigator, entertainment system and phone, forced Mercedes to buy back 2,000 E-class sedans from U.S. customers. The quality glitches also created tensions with Robert Bosch GmbH, a key Mercedes supplier.

This is the first time Mercedes-Benz has acknowledged the widespread quality problems. During an interview with Automotive News at the Frankfurt auto show, a top company executive said Mercedes is working hard to improve its ranking on consumer quality surveys.

"We have a problem because we are the technology leader," said Juergen Hubbert, the DaimlerChrysler board member responsible for Mercedes cars. "We were not talking about (the improvement) because you have to see it. On the next survey you will see we are on our way."

Hubbert was referring to J.D. Power's most recent Initial Quality Survey, which measures a vehicle's quality three months after it is purchased. The survey, which was released in spring, ranked Mercedes 15th among brands, barely above the industry average.

Detective work

Problems began to crop up two years ago, when Mercedes-Benz had trouble integrating Comand's features. Bosch supplied the system's navigator.

When Mercedes-Benz connected Comand's electronic systems, the screen would go blank and systems would malfunction. The system created other glitches. For example, the system inadvertently would activate the electric seats and drain the battery.

A Bosch source says Mercedes asked the supplier to integrate Comand's features after Mercedes had trouble doing so. But the effort to debug Comand strained Bosch's engineering resources.

According to a Mercedes executive, Bosch placated its angry customer by firing a top executive in its Blaupunkt unit, which produces navigators, radios and other electronics. The Mercedes source did not name the executive, and the Bosch spokesman declined to comment.

But it is known that senior Bosch executive Stephan Rojahn left the company without explanation late in 2001.

Rojahn, a highly regarded manager who was on Bosch's fast track, was responsible for Blaupunkt. Rojahn later joined Durr AG, a manufacturer of paint equipment.

Sporadic failures

Comand's quality glitches proved difficult to track down. The electronics would fail sporadically, making it difficult to identify and fix problems.

"When you looked into it, it never happened again - until the next time," Hubbert said.

As problems persisted, consumers began to downgrade their opinions of Mercedes quality. According to J.D. Power data, Mercedes owners reported 132 problems per 100 vehicles, just above the industry average of 133 problems.

"Seven out of our top 10 problems are with electronics, communications, telematics, radio, telephone - activities where we had put a lot of electronic systems in the car," said Hubbert.

The good news, according to the company, is that the electronics problems have been fixed.

"What we have and what we deliver to the market is of significantly higher quality than it ever was," said Hans-Joachim Schoepf, executive vice president for Mercedes-Benz's car development and engineering.

To improve quality, Mercedes-Benz increased its product testing by 50 percent. "We do more testing than we ever did, especially with debugging," Schoepf said. "The real problem is that we underestimated the debugging phase in new electronics systems, especially multimedia."

The company also redesigned its Comand system so that it can diagnose a problem without the customer's intervention.

"If something happens in the system, it repairs itself," Schoepf says. "You won't see it as a customer."

Mercedes also has dispatched employees to its suppliers to become technology experts. The company has assigned staffers to Motorola, Nokia and Siemens, among others.

"If you want to work together with your supplier you have to have expertise," said Schoepf. "Otherwise, they can tell you anything."

Schoepf also says Mercedes made sure that dealers were kept informed so that they could fix vehicles as they came in for service.

Mercedes-Benz eventually changed suppliers, awarding the navigator contract to Harman/Becker Automotive Systems.

Bosch's other contracts with Mercedes have not been affected.

"It was clear the multimedia side has nothing to do with the fuel injection, sensor or the engine control unit," Schoepf said.

Technology leader

The experience has not deterred Mercedes-Benz from its goal of being the auto industry's technology leader in safety and fuel economy.

For example, Mercedes considers its Pre-Safe crash avoidance system, which activates the brakes when it senses an impending crash, to be a key safety technology.

But company executives are debating the need to adopt less essential technologies quickly. For example, Mercedes-Benz has not moved quickly to introduce Internet access or text message service.

Mercedes executives are troubled by the brand's drop in quality ratings. But Joachim Schmidt, head of worldwide sales and marketing, argues that customer loyalty remains high.

"We have problems but ... we are very successful in terms of sales and we are very successful in terms of brand awareness," Schmidt said. "We have the highest loyalty rate in the automotive industry."

Schmidt says Mercedes dealers have been able to fix nearly all problems.

"We have customers that have high expectations," he says. "There is no sign that the situation is grave. Our image is great."

RE; MB quality. There are about the same number of items in my house that go on the"fritz" at least once a month. I expect to see repair people coming and going from time to time. But if you have a car, like a Benz its still basicaly a maintenace free auto. Course C Span or O'Rielly don't always come in clear. But maybe I sometimes don't agree with them. Go figure!

Lenny,
good one. it basically reiterates the fact that we've been debating all along in this post. It's about time mercedes acknowledged the issues it's facing. Atleast mercedes is admitting this. bmw on the other hand won't even admitt the problems that those cars are experiencing.

The race is on. No one seems to want a car anymore. They want a coffee-maker on wheels. They want to read the paper, sip their latte, and surf the net while driving. So, makers are loading the cars with more and more junk. Junk that breaks all the time.

Cripes, look at the PC you're reading this on. Can you imagine if cars were as unreliable? PC's have had years and years of R&D on basically the same set of components, but it's still a huge cluster-f%^k.

I don't want the COMAND run the windows. I don't want the cruise control tied into the fuel pump and tire pressure monitor.

Seven speed automatic trannies? They are just getting the five speed right. I'd trade the new seven speed for an Air Mass Meter that lasts 10 years.

I do find it beyond funny that a new $60,000 C320 does not come with a CD player.

60 grand for a C320!? MSRP is 36, I think even the AMG C32 is $54K, but you're right, the CD player is optional. Personally, I think navigation and all the other doodads should be optional, but a CD changer should come as standard. And the radio should have knobs and buttons on it, not a screen with menus that force you to take your eyes off the road. As troublesome as these electronics are, I'm really scared of brake-by-wire!

Note that blackmercedes is quoting prices in CAN, not US currency... ;)

Having had worked for several car manufacturers I have witnessed the two camps that typically make up German auto builders. There are the "traditionalists" who are very engineering oriented and the "marketing/sales groups" who understand what it means to sell products competitively and most importantly, successfully.

Here is the important message: Neither are wrong AND neither are completely right.

The engineers love to improve the product parameters through valid well-tested processes. Safety, performance, comfort etc but dislike the Tokyo-At-Night dashboard displays etc (Higher probability of failures).

The Marketing/Sales groups know that no CD (forget changers), no GPS, even as an option, will relegate product ratings as behind the other products in their class.

Having visited and become friends with several engineers, it is very interesting to see what cars they would choose to drive. Often it is not the latest, not the trailing (old technology cars) but the middle grouping. Similar I think to what this forum's drivers generally drive.

Although the Marketing/Sales people often get "company" cars to drive, what they purchase for themselves and their families are: the almost very same choices as the engineers.

Yes, parts of these choices are dictated by economics, but also because collectively, the two general groups know where the value and reliability lies.

In industry construction cultures, Japan continues to successfully integrate new technologies rapidly with low failure rates due primarily to their way of working together, company to company. The German auto industry has had to learn by trial and error, often times painfully (per these recent satisfaction surveys) that empirical specs, implementation schedules and refined processes are not enough to ensure a bug-free product.

Please remember that Porsche hired Japanese industry consultants to change and then improve their manufacturing process, from design through to build. Of course it was Porsche who was hired by Harley-Davidson to improve their engines to become smoother, more reliable and have more horsepower, but that’s another story.

Haasman

In Stuttgart yesterday
 

I was in Stuttgart yesterday. The taxi drivers both had the new E-class. Both had between 50 and 60k km. on the clock. Both had had a long series of electical and electronic problems, each having a particular one that I did not understand (my German is not great) that was not solved for two months. "MB did not have a solution." Both are fairly happy now. Both said that you should never buy an MB in its first year. At work, a colleague with a new E320 also had a series of electrical problems, but is now happy. He was one of two colleagues who said "Don't buy a new model in the first year."

At least the taxi drivers did not block the MB factory gates, which the did for the last two E-Class models. On the earlier one, the main problem was apparently doors that would not close.

Momo

According to this web site the Mercedes cars look pretty good to me.
http://autos.msn.com/home/reliability_ratings.aspx?src=URES

According to that website, my '98 ML320, first model year, is trouble free! Consumer Reports, on the other hand, keeps saying how unreliable they are.

O.K. people, lets recap:

Mercedes-Benz argues that most of their reliability problems arise from multimedia, communications, entertaintment systems...

They claim they have "fix" most of the problems and switch suppliers from Bosch to Harman/Becker.

Remember what happened to the ill-fated MD-11 from Swissair? Accident investigations point to a problem of the multimedia system that developed an inflight fire. Swissair later removed or stopped using their multimedia systems in all of their aircraft.

Now, I ask, where is Swissair right now?

The new systems are manufactured by Harman/Becker?

Gosh, I feel so safe! My 1981 Becker Mexico Cassette unit (fitted to my 300TD) one day starting smoking badly after inserting a cassette. The unit was pulled from the car and opened to be serviced. The technician found transistors manufactured by Siemens on 1966 and discontinued on 1969. The Becker Mexico had a manufactured date of 10/1980. The unit was declared DOA and sacrificied (and take into account that the "option" costed US$1,500.00 in 1981!).

If Mercedes-Benz is not careful about its reliability problems, it might as well end up at the bottom of the Nouva Scotia sea like Swissair's MD-11.

"You know what's the most troubling thing about the whole deal? 3 weeks ago I felt it necessary to buy my wife a brand new Toyota 4Runner because I absolutely HAD to have 1 car in the family I KNEW would run whenever called upon. It's a shame to have such a big comfortable Benz, but not have the confidence to drive it anywhere but to work and back for fear it will strand me. I never, ever had that fear with my Lexus."

Yep.

Prior to getting a used '95 E320, I had driven Camry's for the past 10 years. Had a Corolla and a Starlet prior to that. I've had the Merc for about 7 months and have already spent more on it than I spent on both my Camry's in 10 years.

My merc has 127K on it and has been towed once. I had to replace the neutral safety switch and the radiator. And as y'all know....there are NO cheap repairs on a MB.

I am also shopping for a Toyota 4Runner simply because I want something I can trust to get me to work and back.