Did I get ripped off by my mechanic?
 

I did the ball joints and upper control arms on my car. My uncle and I couldn't get the old b-joints out and didn't see how we could get the new joints in with the Auto-Zone tool. So, I took the spindles and new ball joints to a mechanic here who my dad has known since the late 60's. Another mechanic there did the work. He removed the boots to press them in. I was there when he was putting the last boot on. he said that was the worst part of doing ball joints. That didn't take him 10 minutes.
Anyways, he charged me for 2 hours labor. $120.00! That was just to put new joints into the spindles. I gave them all the parts. My dad called today and asked the owner, he said "one hour a side, book time". Does the book say 1 hour a side just to put a ball joint in a spindle?
Thanks
David

P.S.
This was for my '79 300SD w116 chasis.

More likely, the "book time" meant a R/R of the control arm and ball joint. On my W201, "book time" on a front ball joint is 1.8 hours, which includes R&I of the lower control arm, however with the lower control arm removed, there's a deduction of 1.5 hours, so you might want to discuss the book with your mech.

I had the lower ball joints removed and replaced as well as the lower control arm bushings removed for $120.00. I thought the cost was high but a mechanic friend said that 120 to 150 would have been the norm.

Well, there are a few things to think about here.


1) Overhead of running a shop, this incudes the tools, lights, P&L etc...

2) Paying the tech

3) The fact you took on a job that was over your head.


Now, you could have posibly saved a few bucks by getting a machine shop to do the press work.


I know this, as a professional tech I would be very unwilling to take time out of my day to spend 45 minites to 1 hour of my time to press in a set of ball joints for .2 each.

You also have to think about this, most shops are set up to pay the basic bills off parts markup margins. (I was told a 33% gross on parts is the "break even" point.) Keeping all those factors in mind do you still think you got "ripped off"?

If you do, I'd recomend this, start buying tools, technical manuals, get certified, buy equipment, lease a building, start marketing, hire personel, purchase liability insurance (this is a HUGE bill with no returns whatsoever) You'll find very quickly it is not as easy as it seems. I'm not trying to be harsh, a smart ass or "get in your face". I'm simply pointing out the other side of this statement. We as professional techs make our living off repairing/servicing your cars. While there are a lot of exceptions to the rule, most techs are simply trying to make a living.

yeah, you got burned bad. IMO.
I did my ball joints, but like you I could not get the new one in, took a guy 5 minutes with a press to get the new ones in. It was a Sunday and he didnt charge me anything, a independant NAPA dealer w/machineshop.

A 2 ton hand press can be bought for $60.

I can see merits in both sides of the argument, and maybe the shop was justified in charging what they did, but I think the shop made a long-term mistake in charging the full amount.

Why?

Because they probably lost a customer (you), and you'll probably tell 15 more people on how this shop over-charges.

When you say your father has known this mechanic since the 60's, do you mean that he just knows the guy as an acquaintance, or do you mean that this mechanic has been working on your cars since the 1960's?

If your father has been a customer of this guy for 40 years, you'd think he do that for you as a favor, or at minumum, a small charge.

If the relationship has been as this one for 40 years, then he might just have placed the cost as such to remedy the relationship.

If I were faced with the concept of the original question "Did I get ripped off by my mechanic" I'd rather not do the job. I don't bother with logical explanations such as Joe's, anyone asking such a question won't understand anyway. As I have stated before it costs at least an hours worth of labor for a shop to process a repair order without doing any labor. Tell the shop owner you will buy the ball joints from him and bring him 8 a day and see if you can get a better rate, otherwise let your fingers do the walking as real techs won't interupt their day for such a pittance. When they do it it is out of kindness.

I just had my ball joints done for $180 by my Mercedes mech. He supplied the parts(Mercedes) He did the hole job in less than 90 minutes.

Re: Did I get ripped off by my mechanic?
 

[QUOTE]
Anyways, he charged me for 2 hours labor. $120.00!

Now stop here for a min. and ask yourself where you'd be if this tech. hadn't fixed what you apparently could not.

Huh?????

We're comin' up on hump day; the weekend will be here soon.

Here's an experiment you can try.

Go to your local grocery store on Friday night. Buy eggs, bacon, bread, hamburger buns, hamburger meat, chicken, rice, green beans.

On Sat. morning, go to your local IHop and bring the eggs/bacon/bread. Ask them to cook what your brought. You'll leave hungry.

Around noon, go to your local greasy spoon diner and have then cook your hamburger. You're gonna leave even hungrier.

Pushing on sun-down, head to your favorite evening diner and have then cook your chicken, rice & green beans.

Beginning to get the point???????????

In the future, to avoid problems,
 

ask for an estimate BEFORE the work is done.;)
Good luck!

Exactly ... always ask before the job is performed. If in the beginning you thought $120 was too much, you could of negotiated a price that worked for both of you and you never would of posted here in the first place and the relationship issue never would of surfaced.

Talk to the owner now, tell how you feel and most likely he will offer something to keep the relationship working. Maybe not ... I know I would.

If in doubt, ask.

Haasman

The reason I post to these type posts is so that I can give perspective to the shop position in a very interpersonal type of relationship. These issues have so little to do with technology.

With that in mind, I would recommend that you do what you want with the memory but leave the invoice alone if you value the relationship with that technician (even as your second or third choice). To bring the issue up for reconsideration is an affront. As a businessman he will probably allow himself to be beat up. As a person you can forget the ensuing relationship.

I would agree with the people on the side that you got ripped off. I would also agree with the people who say the tech had a right to charge you what he did.

Take this as a learning experience. This guy ripped you off, and had every right to. Why; because you let yourself be ripped.

J.HIDALGO had it right when he said ask for an estimate. Since you didn't ask, he charged you what he wanted after the work was done. If you had asked for an estimate and he said 2 hours, you could have done 3 things. 1) accept the 2 hour estimate; 2) negotiate a lower estimate (2 hours; how about a 2 $20 bills instead, its only 5 mins of work.); 3) go elsewhere.
Heck, he may not even had said 2 hours if you'd asked before the work was done, thinking you'd have walked away.

Ah, I usually call around, and get the estimate on the phone.

Good luck moving forward


D

ripped off??
 

:D Here's my 2 cents...
Hard to believe after a 30-40 yr relationship that this shop would have ripped you off so much!. (maybe a love / hate relationshiip)? I agree that you should have asked, but after so many years, where's the trust?. After being in business for 30+ yrs in the hydraulic business, its a 2-way street. I would have charged you for ONE hour's labor, to cover everything. Two hrs. was to much for a 15min. job. but I think one would have been more than fare for everybody. Remember he has to stand behind his repair (for liability reason's etc.), in case you come "whinning" back for something.
Scotty

Listen to Steve!
 

I believe he summarized the situation very well and gave you excellent advice. I have a close friend that owns a repair shop (unfortunately not MB). I take my cars to him, I do not ask for an estimate. What he asks, I pay. I must admit that a couple of times I did not like the bill. But, as Steve says, I keep it to myself because this is not a technical matter and it is no longer about money.
On the other hand, if you relationship is just bussiness, expect to pay book value, why? Every owner has relatives, friends, friends of friends etc. He could spend all day doing charity work and losing money all the time.
Forget about it and move on!


Rookie

Well, I would tend to side with the group that says this charge was unreasonable.

However, it always amazes me that you can get such enthusiastic responses from both sides in a case like this.

I guess that's why there's Republicans and Democrats. :p

I'm with Steve to the effect that a business remains in business to pay the bills and make money. I fully agree with this principle.
But a business should never forget customers (and their friends) will come back only if they feel they were treated fairly.
In this case, the business probably made a $60. profit on the bill but also probably lost a custumer for life. Who will benefit from this situation?.... A competitor with better understanding of all facets of business practices.
I remember being ripped-off years ago by a Honda dealer where I was charged $15.00 of labor to replace a burned tail light bulb on my car while I was checking for a new car in the showroom. Guess where I bought my new car....from a competitor.
.Jackd

I don't think $120 is such an unfair amount. What you gained from the relationship was immediate service. The guy solved your problem for you straight away. There are certainly enough LBJ threads here, mine included, that you should have been able to finish by yourself anyway. But on the other hand, the rates charged are why I do most of my own work, including the LBJ's, and the reason sites like this are popular. That being said, if I was a tech and someone brought a vehicle in for a tail light bulb change, you better believe I'd charge them at least $15 (CAN? $10), if not more.

no you were not robbed
no the shop did not lose a customer
Obviously you got in over ur head.You started a job you had no idea how to do.The guy bailed you out QUICKLY!!!!That alone is well worth the money you were charged.

I donot think the shop in question lost a customer because you were not one to begin with.And probally would not have been any time soon.There is nothing wrong with wanting to fix ur car urself.But you should be aware of what the repair entails befor attempting.There is a lot of money in any mechanics toolbox(I currently have 25g invested in mine)and more in shop equipment and related costs.The guy who owns the shop has many mouths to feed if you were that concerned about the price you should have asked first.b

as a DIY'er, i find most every job has some sticking point... some bolt who's head snaps off or some part that i can't break free, etc...
if i've messed it up, surrender and bring the whole job to a mechanic then he has the right to charge me for the whole job. even if i simplified it for him by taking things apart.
but if i bring him some part that just needs a press to break it loose (or some similar example) then i take it as an insult if the shop takes into account every part of their overhead when charging me. in effect the shop is saying that they realize they would not have gotten this business but seeing as how now i need them, they will take full punitive advantage of me and charge me 2 hours labor for 15 minutes of thier work.
so i find that people trying to do their own mechanical work are at a real loss....we know what is practically involved and don't want to pay what we feel is unfair in relation to the work.
being that i am not a shop owner, i look at this problem from its relationship to the work involved. not from a perspective of paying for the mechanic's education, insurance, rent, tools and such. i feel those things are the mechanics' investment giving him the right to charge $60 an hour for his "actual" time.

You weren't ripped off. You were charged book value which is standard. You still saved $$ over having them do the job from scratch. Say thanks and move on.

I did ask here. From what I understood, I could use the press from Autozone to get the new ones in. I don;t know about others, but the w116 has an indent area that the big press will not fit. I had never heard anyone say that I wouldn't be able to use that press. I dropped the spindles off in the morning and picked them up 6 hours later. We have always been customers, I know, I should have asked. I just figured they charge for the amount of time it takes them? Thus one hour labor=1 hour. Well, I guess that philosophy isn't true. looking back, I should have gone to NAPA, would have been done sooner too. Oh well, lesson learned.
Thanks
David

David:
Don't beat yourself up over this, just don't feel ripped off. Like gstigler said, even though you paid $120, that's pretty cheap for both ball joints replaced - easily 1/3 what you would have paid if someone else did the entire job for you. You learned a bunch of things that will take you further on your next DIY attempt (so don't give up trying!!) Instead of looking at it like you may have spent an extra $60, (and feeling bad about it) look at it like you saved ~$250 and pat yourself on the back for trying.;) Hell, if I can buy the tools for what it would cost to do a job, I will and then I'll do it myself!! Granted, I've spent the same amount of money but I feel like I got free tools! It's all in how you look at it.

Amen! Me too! :D

http://www.samstagsales.com/sirtools.htm


You sure? the proper press tool is over $300.00.

Man, the types of aditudes I've been reading are exactly what has made a policy here about not taking in new clients with cars over 10 years old.

I also want to meet the guy who can press in and press out a set of ball joints in 10 min. That dude is nothing short of BADASS! Even once the knuckles hit the floor you can figure 15 min each just to run the skrew. Unless your crazy enough to run one of these with a 1/2" impact. These press's also do not remove the old joints, that one is a neanderthal momnt most of the time. As in beat the snot out of it to break loose 10 years of rust and grime and no, applying heat to cast knuckles is not a good idea.

Joe

Hey Joe:
It's not rocket science. I can press two ball joints into a 123 spindle in 15 minutes including putting the boots back on with the free tool rented from Pep Boys. It's how I did mine. I used a breaker bar on the screw with the tool mounted in a bench vise. Piece of cake. Applying heat to cast knuckles isn't good, true. Good thing MB's are forged, huh...

PS. You can meet me the next time you're in Charleston!;)

And remove the old, rusty, stubborn ones with no damage to the knuckles? Cool, I've been doing them for 20 years + and it takes a average of 30 minites to remove and install on a "southern" car, the couple of "northern" cars I've done took twice that time, keep in mind this is without ~any~ damage to the knuckles, this includes the occassional dent. The knuckles are still iron vs steel and dont take to kindly to excessive heat. (why take unnessasary chanses eh?)


Its a moot point anyway. :D I just feel 90% of people out there have no idea about the costs of do repair work on a professional level. It kinda chaps my ass to hear people ***** and then follow up with a statement about tools. Trust me, the insurance inventory here has over $80K in hand tools alone, the box is over 10K alone.


Yes, the free rentals from places like autozone are lifesavers for the diy'er and I do wholehearted support the diyer. (why the hell am I here if I didn't? LOL) What I dont like is when a diyer gets resentful about being bailed out by a pro and then *****ing about being charged for the service. :D

I guess I should shut up now and go drink 'nother cup of coffee. LOL



Joe

Have a cup on me, Joe!

Steve

I am a DIY a believe me, I know, how hard some jobs are...
 

Here is a short story that I read/heard somewhere and it goes something like this:
There was a guy that have some noise coming from the plumbing in his house somewhere. After trying different things to solve the problem without success, he called a plumber.
Plumber came in and after looking around for around 10 minutes he tapped the wall with a hammer once and the noise was gone. He gave the owner a bill for $120. What!... He owner says. I demand an itemized bill! OK... says the plumber and, after a few minutes he comes back with an itemized bill:

Tapping on the wall $1
Knowing where to tap $119
Total $120

:D ;)

Yes, once I had a bad fuel pump relay on an '86 300E but I didn't know enough back then to diagnose the problem. I described the symptoms to my mechanic.

He said he would tell me what was wrong for $50. I said OK. He told me. I replaced the relay. It fixed the car.

I paid the man and was glad to do it.

I talked to my dad after reading this and I understand from their view point. I did learn to utilize the local NAPA machine shop.
Thanks
David