5-speed 300e-Collectors Item?
 

Hopefully, this is the right forum for this post. Apologies in advance if it is not.

I recently bought a 1986 300e with the 5-speed. It was, IMO, a reasonably priced car. Coming out of the desert SW, there is not a single speck of rust on the car, and it has never been crashed. Just the usual issues related to the sun.

It has 206,000 on the clock, and everything works. With the exception of the Antera rims and the radio, everything is unmolested and OEM. On a overal condition scale, I would rate it a 7 out of 10. As a former pro mechanic, I like cars that have not been given "The Treatment" by less than expert wrench operators and the shade tree set.

I have the money and time to restore the paint and interior to mint condition. If I put mechanical parts in it, I'm inclined to go the OEM mercedes route....if the car will eventually be a desireable unit.

I did a major tune up, CIS work, valve job, and wheel bearings/brakes to date. Amazing what a 18-year old car will still do if treated right. I like working on cars as a pastime, and this thing is as much fun to work on as it is to drive.

If this car is not really worth much (say, less than $4,000), I am interested in stuffing either a 500e or a 560 SEL engine in it. I think really fast and good handling cars that don't fit the camaro/musting/eclipse/etc. stereotype are pretty amusing. Another route might be a t3/t4 turbo on the six.

The major reason I would go this route is because I'm very partial to manual transmissions, and to my knowledge, there are no stick V-8's in sedan form in the last 15 years from M-B. Otherwise, I would just buy a 500e. (I might do that anyways)

It's not like the car is slow or anything like that. In fact, I find that pesky right foot of mine is already creating a cause for concern, even in New Mexico where traffic enforcement in the boonies is pretty lax. I'll bet this thing will do close to 150.

If this car has intrinsic collectors value, I will buy another one, (auto) to hotrod and animalize. I would then assign this one to low-duty use, and restore it.

It's rare in the US, not in the world though...

so I'm not sure if it could be classified as such. These 5-speed 300Es are always talked about in this forum and other MB enthusiast sites. However, they dont seem to sell for too much on ebay or autotrader.

I am looking for one myself...

not collectible.
unusual maybe. collectible? not.

there is a thread here somewhere about turboing 124s.

Before you transplant a 500E engine check if the 5-speed can take the torque. Probably can't otherwise MB would have made at least a few 5-spd 500Es.

Not very collectable except to a very few, and that won't change until its very old. The fun factor however, is extremely high. To the rest of the world, the 5 spd was mostly seen in taxi service.

My 300E is very similar to the one you described except that it is an '88. The manual transmission was put in about 700 '86's and about 300 '88's. My car is in absolutely EXCELLENT mechanical condition, but probably only a 7 or 8 cosmetically. It is completely rust free, but I have hit a deer and it had light repair on the drivers door before I got it.

I feel that my car is a real gem. As you, I am a manual transmission fanatic. That is why I looked for two years until I found one of these with a manual.

Although I don't see these cars as collectibles or classics, I REALLY hate to see one altered. As you have learned, it is a great car and the manual makes it faster and MUCH more fun to drive. Yes, the top speed is listed as 144 and I feel quite sure that my car will go that fast as I have had it near there with plenty more left.

My friend Paul (Suginami) has a two cam 124. That engine has about 15% more power than our single cam engines, but of course, has an automatic. After riding in mine he commented that the manual makes it come alive.

Today, unless you can find an enthusiast buyer, the car is not worth much more than an equivalent a/t model, but who knows? Maybe some day there will be a premium. If that day ever comes, a rust free unmodified example will definitely be the desirable car that will bring the extra cash.

As you've discovered, it's a fun car to drive if you're a stick shift enthusiast. Why not get something else to play with and leave the 124 untouched as a fun daily driver?

It's your car and your business, but if the day ever comes when they start bringing a premium, then the fewer original cars that are available will make mine more valuable.

BTW, there is no way this transmission would hold up behind a stout V8 unless you tiptoed around with it, and what fun would that be?

Enjoy,

Slight bump in value
 

My previous car was a 1988 BMW 735i 5-speed (E32 body style). Less than 600 E32 735i's were imported from 1988-1990, with 1990 being the last year. It was a wonderful car, but after moving 10 miles further from work, in DC traffic, I couldn't take a 5-speed anymore. Funny, because i searched for 6 months to specifically buy a 735i with a 5-speed.

I believe that I was able to get more interest in the car because it was a stick. I kept the car immaculate, which is always a good way to get more at the time of sale. However, the stick did not give the car "collectible" value. The stick allowed me to command a premium (about $1500) over what an automatic would have gone for. Even so, the number of people that will buy a car with 188,000 miles on it is very limited, even a BMW.

Hope this helps.

Troy
1995 E420

Think of it this way: There was not enough demand to keep the manual option alive in the USA. Bet they would rot on the dealer's lots, if they were not special ordered. If there was little demand then, there will probably be little demand in the future. Sure, there are a handful of folks looking for them, but are they expecting to pay more? I bet more folks reading the classified ad will pass because of the 5-speed, than will be attracted by it. I doubt the 124 in general is rare enough to become particularly collectible.

Did you notice that the motor press was generally handed 5-speeds for testing in 1985/1986? Must have accounted for a decent percentage of the total production.

My own car was saved from a $1000 trade in offer. The dealer said it was worth less on the auction market because of the 5-speed. Fortunately, it was offered to me instead.

Anyways, I doubt your 5-speed is up for the torque of a V8. If you get into building a V8 124, perhaps you could salvage a manual transmission from an SL.

Supply and demand
 

Not much supply, not much demand.

A lot of people say they want more Mercedes with standard transmissions, but not many are putting their money where their mouth is.

I noticed when car magazines do a comparison between a BMW sporty model and a Mercedes sporty model they always say "Too bad Mercedes doesent offer it with a standard transmission.

The SL's have the same manual transmission. The only SL's of this time period that came to the US with a manual were M103 sixes.

There are no manual transmissions designed to go behind V8's of that era, either for the US market or the worldwide market. I expect that the very few V8's with manuals that were built by Renntech or AMG were with non MB transmissions and a lot of custom adapter fabrication.

IMHO, with every passing year there are fewer and fewer people that can even drive a car with a manual transmission. Of that number there are fewer that are competent doing it. Of that number there is a smaller number that truly ENJOY driving a manual.

I am one of the few people who totally LOVE and ENJOY driving a manual transmission under ANY conditions, even stop and go or freeway traffic jams. I don't like freeway traffic jams, but I don't dislike them any more because I'm driving a stick.

Both of my kids fall in that very small group with me. They both are EXTREMELY competent driving a stick and really enjoy it. My daughter absolutely INSISTS on having a car with a stick.

Since there are few of us around, the market is limited for now. I still say, though, that the possibility exists that these cars will be saught after in the distant future. My baseball cards were nothing when I was a kid. After all they gave them away in bubble gum, they were only little pieces of cardboard worth nothing unless you needed something to kindle a fire. If I only had back my Mickey Mantle and Roger Maris cards that I threw in the trash I could own all the manual transmission cars I want.

If I had known the future, I would not have passed up the '70 Mustang Boss 429 with 10,000 miles for $2,400. I needed the money for tuition.

None of us know what the future holds.

Have a great day,

While the 5-speed may be more appealing to an "enthusiast" it's still stuck in a 300E, engine and body. So, while there's a chance for a premium over an auto 300E, it's not going to double the value, etc. Time has shown that, except for the limited production uber sedans, it is the SL's that seem to rebound in value, approximately at their 30th anniversary. So, you '70's SL owners with good condition cars . . . it might be your time.

i would tend to agree with MTI, with a slight variation. If I am in the market for a manual-transmission car, I would go for a BMW (3series or 5series). It has a sportier and more driver-oriented demeanor that is in line with the more driver-involved nature of shifting it manually. I would then complement this with a proper MB sedan with an automatic transmission (e.g. an E420/400E).

that said, you would have to pry my hands off my 5speed-manual 190e 2.6 ...

what I would really want though, is a manual C36 ... this would keep my mind off the BMW alternative ...

the upshot of these manual MB cars not being in high demand is that we manual-shifting enthusiasts can easily afford them, IF we can find one ...

Only time can verify any of our theories. Those baseball cards were nothing but a cheap piece of cardboard that came free with a piece of bubble gum.

Every individual post in this thread is nothing more than each of our individual likes, dislikes and theories.

None of us have a crystal ball.

Have a great day,

And my Mom tossed my "Beatles" lunch box when we moved in 68! :mad:

And from time to time, I think about the vast collection of Hot Wheels I had as a kid in the early 70's.

I got my driver's license during the gas crunch, and neighbors were eager to part with their Hemis, Bosses and SS'ers for 3 or 4 grand...

...maybe this should be a nostalgia thread! ;)

The only SLs that came to the U.S. were the early 129s - 90 to 93 300SLs. They were a 3 liter 104 motor and had a different transmission than the 300Es. They had a dogleg shift pattern - first gear was towards the rear of the car, second towards the front of the car - like a 928 stick. I believe it was actually the same transmission as a 928 although I can't remember who made it. I'm sure the transmission was stout but to me neither was a fun car to drive.

deanyel,

Thanks for the info. I saw a 300SL stick one time at a used car dealer and did not open the hood. I just assumed that it was 103 since it was a '90 model. I forgot that the 104 engine was used in other cars before the 300E.

Still there is LOTS of difference in torque and HP between the 104 and the more powerful V8's. I doubt that it would hold up.

Have a great day,

Although a 300e 5-speed is not rare on a global scale... being that many euro-models are 5-speed... I think that US-spec 5 speed 300e models are rare.

yea, when I said to my tech about missing a manual transmission he said 'welcome to America' :)

I'm actually thinking of selling my 300E soon as I'm bored of the auto 'box. Makes me feel 'disconnected' from the car, and I'm increasingly finding myself using the 3 & D positions whilst driving.
I think this is a case of missingmanualitis.

300E with stick
 

I know of a clean one-owner car in the Bay Area of California with around 145K miles on it. It could probably be had for $3500

I've though of buying it and using it to commute in (75 miles each day) instead of my '93 300CE convertible. I've only got a 2-car driveway and no spare spot to put the stick-shift 300E.

Anybody interested? I could get a phone number.

I wasn't so optimistic at first :) after all it was a heavy car, not a Porsche, and torque was pretty high placed, at over 4000rpm... yet my 260E was pretty lively (to my sheer dumb luck, it's a Sportline in mint condition, from 1990, with slightly over 60k miles on it). My uncle has a 300E from '87, still a manual - maybe I should take it to a quick tour on the highway. The difference is 20hp, and I wonder...

Obviously this is true for US only :p

I wouldn't trade my 5-speed for any automatic(or my Sportline suspension for a softer one, and keep in mind my city has the worst roads ever seen in Europe).

Would my car be a collector's item in the next 10-15 years? don't know. Yet it's damn fun. I'd take a six-cylinder + manual over a V8 + automatic anytime (OK, I wouldn't reject a 500E altogether.... dream on)

My advice for rstallings would be to not butcher the car - better enjoy it.

~Good luck

Nautilus

Nuatilus,

I apologize for not being clear. Yes, I was talking only about drivers in the US.

In Europe automatics are rare. I was sitting on the second story of a building near Lensburgh, Switzerland a few years ago gazing out the window and waiting for someone to finish up some work so we could leave. I was looking at a two lane road with a street that Teed into it from the opposite side of the road. I sat there for a while just watching all the cars that were coming to a stop and awaiting a gap in traffic so that they could make the left turn. I was at an angle where I could see into the cars quite well.

I could see the driver shift gears and tell if they were driving a manual. If I saw a hundred cars, I don't think that five of them were automatics.

In Europe gas is $6 a gallon or more. At that fuel cost, most folks aren't interested in buying the extra fuel required to operate an automatic.

When I go to Europe I absolutely drool over the neat MB's that I see with Manuals.

Have a great day,

you can tell a manual from an automatic by observing the car from behind.

at a stop light, if the brake lights are on, it is most likely an automatic, as most drivers just leave the car in "D" and use the brakes at stoplights. On an inclined road however, a manual car will also likely be braked while waiting for the light (i.e., it can also be hand-braked, which would not light up the brake lights. Also, even if my car is manual, I sometimes brake the car at stoplights, especially if pedestrians are crossing the road, to avoid hitting them if I am hit from behind).

the definitive answer comes when the brakes are released, on a level road - if the car creeps forward immediately after the brake light goes off, it is an automatic (based on the assumption that the driver leaves it in "D"). On an uphill incline, it is most likely an automatic if the car does not creep back noticeably when the brakes are released.

you can also check the behavior of the car as it accelerates from rest, onto its first upshift. A manually-driven car will exhibit a slight slowdown on the release of the clutch for the 1-2 upshift, and a rear suspension dip as the next gear is engaged.

with your windows down, you can also listen to the car ahead. The engine sound of an automatic-equipped car is more constant, due to the slippage of the torque converter. A manual car will have that distinct sound of the engine rpm rising and falling, as it is being upshifted.

on downhill roads, manual cars brake less, being able to use engine braking in lieu of short taps on the brakes.

i do all these almost subconsciously, just to make an informal/random poll of how many manual cars there are out there, and there are indeed very few.

in particular, I check the cars that are known to have manual transmissions, like VWs and Hondas. I have never come across a manual Mercedes, if memory serves me right.

i also check those "rice cars", and get amused if they turn out to be automatics.

and oh - another sign: if the car accelerates from rest or slows down for a stop with the driver using a cellphone with the right hand ...

In Australia (as appears to be the case in the USA), manual MBs are only appreciated by MB "nutters" like me. We have very few manual MBs here (although currently there is a small demand for manual SLKs and C-class Sport Coupes and sedans). It's not that Aussies won't drive manuals, it's just that most manuals are small, low priced cars, sports cars, or V8 "muscle" cars. Manual "luxury" cars are restricted mainly to BMW or Porsche. The few manual MBs that were available in the past were mainly W201s and W202s, and then only in four cylinder versions. Occasionally you will see a manual R107 or W116 (280 or 350), W108 or W123, but these will generally be a "grey" import. I am unaware of any six cylinder W124s or W201s coming here with manual transmissions.

Early last year I purchased my 1990 190E, really only due to it being a 5-speed manual Sportline 2.3 (most here were 2.0 or 1.8). I have subsequently found out that it is one of only 15 190E Sportlines believed to have come here, and possibly the only in manual. Despite this, I picked it up for for the same price as any regular 190E in similar (very good and original) condition. About a year before I purchased it, I had seen it advertised for a silly price (presumably based upon the owner's belief that its rarity would attract a high price).

Whilst the car attracts considerable interest, particularly among club members, most still seem to prefer automatics in their MBs. If I was to try to sell it I would probably find the same limited market (although I can think of a few club members who might be intersted). Not that this is likely to happen. It has turned out to be a car I really enjoy. The manual transmission is a delight to use (no, not the fastest shift around but not as bad as some would have you believe), performance is respectable and the Sportline handling is truely superb. It is a perfect daily driver for me and can still fit my family for those times when I want to enjoy it on a country drive. I often wish my 350SLC and our 300TE were manuals, although my wife would probably not agree. It would be an interesting (but unlikely in Oz) experience to drive a manual with the M103 (or M104) engine.

I would suggest that whilst it will have some appeal to a select market, your manual 300E will never be particularly valuable. Due to it's relative rarity in your country, I would enjoy it and maintain it in good, original condition so that others can enjoy it when you decide to sell it.