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#61
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Dan I appreciate your posts again.
Do you or anyone else have experience with the engine mods or rebuilds that Star Motors do? Is the stock engines compression at 8:1 or 9:1? Thanks, R |
#62
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Gerry and Dan, you make this thread very interesting! Thank you. Your comments on 6.3's are priceless.
__________________
1974 280C |
#63
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Quote:
1970 and later US cars have reduced compression (though many people don't know this) particularly for California cars at 8:1. Thus, the early cars are more desirable because they have the full power. MB didn't advertise this because they didn't want people to know that their cars weren't as powerful as the European/earlier versions. 1970 cars also introduced other emissions-related items not found on the earlier cars, such as the trunk-mounted gas vapor recovery system (the 1968-1969 cars just vented the tank overflow to the outside via a hose behind the rear bumper piece on the side of the trunk); non-vacuum-advance ignition (the earlier cars had a vacuum line from the distributor to the throttle body); different ignition timing settings, and so forth. Interestingly, the earlier cars' intakes and other castings (valve covers) are of a more finished and higher quality; MB took a bit more care in the finishing of these items as opposed to the later ones. Cheers, Gerry |
#64
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The reason is that when people buy them they have high intentions of "restoring" said car or making it drivable (remember that 70+% of all 6.3s are essentially running/rolling parts cars). Then the finances of it eventually cause their interest to hit the wall, and a fire sale occurs. The cars are the thing that suffer (along with perhaps the owner's marriage). Each owner drives the car and it doesn't get the care/restoration it needs, and thus its condition worsens over time and with each owner. It's a natural progression -- the original owner was rich and could afford to run and drive the car, and then the car changes hands and gradually becomes more and more dilapidated as the deferred maintenance piles up. Undriven garage time + deferred maintenance are the killers of 6.3s. Dan would agree with me 100%. Dan is the undisputed king of 6.3s -- he's seen and experienced it all. Each of his 6.3s (the Green Hornet, the Silver Bullet, the Blue Goose, the Silver (now Broken) Arrow, the Blue Baron, and the Red Baron (coupe)) has its own distinct personality, just like a kid does. My 6.3 doesn't have a nickname, but Dan nicknamed my 500E "Black Bart" because with the NOS system installed it's a real pirate ship. It raids muscle cars and vanquishes errant Hondas and other Japanese scrap with ease in the quarter mile races. Cheers, Gerry P.S. This past summer I was showing my 500E at a local MBCA club event/show-n-shine. This guy comes up to me and says "Man, you got REAL balls putting NOS in a 500E!" Last edited by gerryvz; 12-10-2004 at 01:51 PM. |
#65
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Ok guys, I'm buying the car.
I'm not afraid to spend money on getting it into ship shape - though I'm sure you've heard this before. Anyways, what is the first thing I should do mechanically? The MB shop actually has 4 6.3's that they work on, on a regular basis and they are willing to put in parts from people like Star Motors. I'm thinking of having the underside of the car steam cleaned and then create a to do list. Any advice? If anyone thinks anything inthe list is not necessary, or if I should be looking at an alternative please mention. 1.Replace all brake lines. 2.Replace all fuel and oil lines. 3.Replace air comp lines. 4.Replace all engine and tranny and sub-frame mounts. 5.Replace tranny with rebuilt tranny, yes, no? 6 Replace rear axle with rebuilt axle - not sure if I want to diagnose the leaky rear axles. 7.Replace drive shaft? - there is no clanky sound so maybe it doesn't need to be changed. The only thing that I have heard clanking from the rear is what sounded like a diff, taking a corner at an intersection. Could it possible be the homokinetic joint that needs to be replaced? 8.Fuel pump had already been replaced, I think it is ok. 9.Pull gas tank, and refinish. 10. Steering gear box looked good, those 3 nuts on the subframe were tight, so no cracks were present, though I did notice some steering fluid (red coloured) leaking. There is NOT any clanking from the steering at the tightest turns in either direction. 11. The Kingpins DO NOT need to be changed they are solid, no play on either sides. Anything else? |
#66
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Now that you're committed, you need to start asking questions of the owners at the site www.m-100.cc That's the International M-100 Group which is the club for owners of these cars.
Good luck Gerry |
#67
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Cheers, Gerry |
#68
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Gerry,
You are spot on. I will post pics of it once I have a chance. |
#69
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Well, Dan Smith's wisdom probably helped you save 7-8K.
Good luck with the car. Use liberally the M-100 resources out there on the Web to get answers and advice to your questions. I don't frequent these sources anymore so I won't have much more to say about things unless it is on this forum, or at www.m-100.info (which is a M-100 owner's club that I helped found). Cheers, Gerry |
#70
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Quote:
__________________
1974 280C |
#71
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PK2, I name them depeding on how they drive and feel. As Gerry said, they are just like children. Every 6.3 is both different and the same. Thay all corner differently, of course running non stock wheels (15 inch steel or bundts) might add to that. In fact, I've almost met my end forgetting what tire were on what 6.3 in a trick I love to pull called the horsepower demo to civilian types. 0 to 55 asap. Just don't do it with hard rubber tires, you spin.
On what to replace or rebuild. I have yet to replace a driveline, but do regular flex joints on the Bullet because it had the most power and very sticky tires. Not all brake lines, just the rubber ones. In fact, change every bit of rubber on the 3. Take note, find the rubber fuel hose in the front that leads from the fuel filter to the mechanical fuel injection system. If your mechanic is not a motivated type he will skip it, it is one tough hose to change. This is the fire starting hose, change it. Mine were all changes as was all the rubber including weather stripping seals. Remove the front and back windows and chaeck for rust. If a tiny leal has happened over 35 years, rust might be there, repair it the only way possible, cut it out and reweld new metal. Don't ever use a silicone window adhesive, it causes rust and some bimbos use it. Air hoses, the steel lines, I have never needed to change, but get ready to repalce the entire air ride control system and the four air bags. Go over to the M100 cc board, I only found this thread because Gerry directed me. You will have hundreds of questions, ask there. We have some real good guys from Australia that are like pros but they are only btrue enthusiasts. Dan Smith, Oregon, USA |
#72
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In reply to the question about comp ratios and Star Motor's modified engines. The answer is yes to all. Of course I can't leave it that way, thus, the rest of the story.
Stock 6.3s came three ways, commonly known as the 7s, the 8s and the 9 to 1 comp ratios. That isn't exact, it's rounded up to the nearest number. In last world nations, like that name?, the 7s were used because of terrible fuel. All German 6.3s and early American 6.3s were 9 to 1s. Then, the brilliant politicians struck. First in California. I have such a 6.3 with that 8 to 1 motor, and even a whip can't make it perform. Our # 1961 is a 9. It's very nice to drive. Two of ours are our own design, 10 1/5 to 1. Now that is very nice but proper fuel a headache in cross USA drives. Feathering the throttle works in the trips. On Neil Dubey's modified motors; Neil, the owner of Star Motors is a quality guy. An innovator. An engineer by trade. He is the only reason that the 6.3 might survive, the only reason. New Parts command a killer price. They shock me. Neil rebuilds numerous items. Now to be exact. No I don't own a Dubey motor which is a 10 to 1 comp ratio. The best way to say this, is what happened on the track in the year 2000 in the Woxall, Pa area where we first met. I must state that race fuel was not made available for my Green Hornet, running a 10 1/2 ratio. I arrived late, others had 100 to 110 octane. I was running that ridiculas product they call gasoline on the east coast, 94 octane. We experienced severe PING if we shifted to fourth. Thus, I kept it in third , way past red line and out of the 6.3 torque curve. Neil's motor won the day at 14.95 or so while I ran 15.007. It was a 90 degree day. Ambient temps are huge to 6.3s. That's a huge defeat in race times. In races, in the fall of 2001, here in Oregon' 58 degree temps, I developed the "tire secret" combined with the "fuel secret". We dropped to 13.69 that year, in the Silver Bullet. The following year to 13.695. Is it better to build your own or buy Neils motor??? No correct answer there. If dollars are key, Neil's motor is the way. If a maxed out motor is key, ask Neil to provide 10 1/2s. Mods are damn costly. Neil's motors are great. His trannies have warratees as do his air valves. Our motors seem to take any amount of thrashings. |
#73
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Hi Dan,
Thanks for your reply. I have heard Gerry and you in your last post mention the engine output differences in the 6.3, depending on the model year. Apparently, the 1970 and onward cars had a constricting emmission system, whereas the 1969 did not... How would Neil's engines compensate, if at all, if mine is a 1970 and I ask him for a 9:1 or 10:1 rebuild motor? Thanks, RR3 |
#74
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There was no constricting emissions system for the 6.3, that crap wasn't invented yet (I'm talking about things like smog pumps, early generation catalytic converters, etc.) which were constricting. The 6.9 had these wonderful "Jimmy Carter era" parts.
Rather the 6.3 just had reduced compression, distributor and ignition tweaks, plus a few electrical tweaks (for example the addition of an extra solenoid to the fuel injection pump that shut off fuel flow when going downhill with the foot off the throttle), and the addition of the fuel vapor recovery system in the trunk. The 6.3 starting in the 1970 year was a shadow of its former self though. 1969 was the last relatively "pure" year for cars in the USA. Even if you look at muscle cars, you see that they started going downhill in 1970 as far as their output and by 1975 they were largely shadows of their former selves. |
#75
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Ok so if I get one of Star Motors 9:1 or 10:1 rebuilds, would I need to do anything else to the car to make sure I have the more "purer" cars as you put it - like the 1969 was, or would I be ok?
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