Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Vintage Mercedes Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 12-12-2015, 07:49 AM
klaus kallas's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Clayton, NC
Posts: 491
Juiceman,

I have a '62 W189. Feel free to contact me if you need any help on the body and chassis layout. Mine has an American v8 dropped in it, so can't help much on the engine itself.

These are beautiful cars with lots of presence, but are fantastically expensive to buy parts for. They made 3077 of them so you can imagine the challenges. Mine is one of the last built I believe (judging by my body number). It is heavily altered underneath and more of street rod at this point. Hope to see yours when it is finally pulled out and cleaned up!

Watch the movies "Beautiful Creatures" or "Needful Things" if you need some inspiration!

Attached Thumbnails
New Guy Here With a True "Barn Find" W189?-image.jpg  
__________________
‘84 300TD “Mountain Goat”
'62 300d Adenauer-350 Chevy - "Max"
'15 VW Passat TDI
'16 Dodge Ram 3500 - Cummins w/6-speed
'68 Mustang fastback
'55 T-bird
‘63 Studebaker Hawk
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 12-12-2015, 02:23 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idle View Post
The recommended treatment for the rubber seals and weather stripping at this time was to apply a coating of glycerin. You might get a small bottle and try it on a piece of weather stripping that looks like it might respond to see what effect it has on bringing it back.



This old weather stripping just soaks this stuff up so put it on slowly and let it soak in.



And it might not work. But if it does use it anyplace you can as it is easier than installing new rubber. The rubber compounds dry out and somehow the glycerin restores the 'liquid' content to the rubber.



This little tip is going to be like a lot of things on this car: You will not know what really works until you try the thing and see if it works.



And hang on to that battery hold down frame in the trunk. These are almost impossible to find since so many of them were just eaten away by the battery tech of the times.

Good to know on the glycerin. I think that my local craft store carries that (don't ask how I know lol) I will pick up a small bottle to keep on hand. I'm sure once I do get it out and into my garage I'll have plenty of time to treat the seals over and over and over again until they won't absorb anymore, haha.

Also you are right on the battery hold down, I hadn't even noticed how scarce it was until I looked at some other W189s online and only 1 out of every 4 actually still had it in place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cth350 View Post
Take the spare rim and get a tire on it. Then swap that for a dead rear wheel and to the next one. Take the drums off carefully, they are going to cost an amazing amount of money. You can get away with leaving them off if you replace them with a stack of washers that make up the thickness so you can bolt the rims back on. A sign on the dash saying "no brakes. Keep the wheels chocked at all times" would be a good idea if go that route.

After you get it rolling, you have two options. The one I strongly suggest you take is to sell the car, take cash and feel glad that you passed the car onto somebody.

-cth

This would be a very good idea I'm sure and save me some major grief when moving it..... I probably will just take the drums off like you suggest and use the washer trick. Even if the brakes aren't stuck I really doubt they would function anyways so probably no difference other than to not have to take each whee back off to remove the drums once I find out that the brakes are stuck! So I'll probably do the washer trick and safely pack up the drums separately.

I'm really hoping that the car will at least shift out of park and into neutral for moving purposes but I probably won't be that lucky.

I understand that the car would bleed me dry of every dime to restore correctly and possibly just to get roadworthy. However I have already accepted that I will not be able to bring it back to show level unless I make it a very long term project. My main goal is to stop it from further deteriorating by getting it into a concrete floor garage and tinkering with it as I can to help preserve it and go from there.

Parts are just insanely expensive it seems but hopefully a lot of things can be salvaged and used. What can't be ill just have to make do without unless it is a necessary part. Cosmetic items will be put on hold until mechanical items are addressed. I've already looked at prices for injection parts and engine parts as well as brakes and they are intense for sure.

I guess I can't really see exactly what direction I will go until I have it out into the daylight so I can see exactly what I have to work with.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 12-12-2015, 02:29 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus kallas View Post
Juiceman,

I have a '62 W189. Feel free to contact me if you need any help on the body and chassis layout. Mine has an American v8 dropped in it, so can't help much on the engine itself.

These are beautiful cars with lots of presence, but are fantastically expensive to buy parts for. They made 3077 of them so you can imagine the challenges. Mine is one of the last built I believe (judging by my body number). It is heavily altered underneath and more of street rod at this point. Hope to see yours when it is finally pulled out and cleaned up!

Watch the movies "Beautiful Creatures" or "Needful Things" if you need some inspiration!

Great looking machine right there! Nothing wrong with having a V8 in there. I'll admit an LS1 swap has crossed my mind if it ever came to that point (if the motor had severe internal damage) I would surely pass it on to a purist that could afford to repair it or needed the parts before i would just keep the car dormant with a bad engine in it.

I just might be in touch with you on a few things once I see the condition of the engine and transmission on this one here in a few months.

Tomorrow I'm going to try to put a little marvel mystery oil in tops of the cylinders so it can kick start the process of loosing things up for when that time comes.

Are your front suspension and front brakes still stock?
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 12-12-2015, 04:02 PM
klaus kallas's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Clayton, NC
Posts: 491
My front suspension is all stock, but the rear is an 8.8 solid axle from a Ford Crown Vic. Do keep all stock if you can!!! Mine will look stock outside, but obviously a bit different under.

When I got the car, it already had the small block and frame altered to fit. I put in the rear because at that point there was only the option of it being a hot rod or parts and would much rather see it on the road than in pieces!!

I still have the stock rear suspension and self leveling components should you need.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 12-12-2015, 10:30 PM
klaus kallas's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Clayton, NC
Posts: 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 SL320 View Post
I still say no to dumping oil in the cylinders and cranking it. Sure you can get it to run but in the long term you can do more damage.

If a cylinder bore is rusted and you manage to break it free, the rough bore will damage an otherwise serviceable piston. Sleeving a cylinder bore is inexpensive, sourcing new pistons for an older obscure engine is going to be costly.

There is also a chance that piston rings are stuck on the grooves, the ring will unevenly expand with heat and score the bore.

A valve can be stuck open ( usually exhaust ) and allow a piston to hit the valve. This could result in the valve shutting or bending and breaking a valve guide. And, it is possible for a cam follower / lash adjuster / rocker arm / push rod to come out of place causing damage.

At minimum the plugs need to come out and a bore scope inserted to inspect the cylinders.
Very good advice. The basic engine is the same as what was used in the 300sl and exclusive to those models. Parts ain't cheap!!!
__________________
‘84 300TD “Mountain Goat”
'62 300d Adenauer-350 Chevy - "Max"
'15 VW Passat TDI
'16 Dodge Ram 3500 - Cummins w/6-speed
'68 Mustang fastback
'55 T-bird
‘63 Studebaker Hawk
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 12-12-2015, 10:44 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus kallas View Post
My front suspension is all stock, but the rear is an 8.8 solid axle from a Ford Crown Vic. Do keep all stock if you can!!! Mine will look stock outside, but obviously a bit different under.



When I got the car, it already had the small block and frame altered to fit. I put in the rear because at that point there was only the option of it being a hot rod or parts and would much rather see it on the road than in pieces!!



I still have the stock rear suspension and self leveling components should you need.

I'm totally with you on that frame of mind. I want to keep mine as original as possible but I also want to hopefully get it on the road at some point. Preferably with it's stock engine but they may or may not be feasible. I've been looking through your older threads and the Crown Vic rear is absolutely an option for me as well if I were to have to do a motor swap. Hopefully not of course but yours turned out great. I'm glad you have a some experience with the setup in case my situation calls for it, that'll be a HUGE help instead of just trial and error and butchering which I sure want to refrain from when necessary.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 12-13-2015, 06:21 AM
klaus kallas's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Clayton, NC
Posts: 491
Mine is "drivable" but far from road worthy yet. I have the watts link for the rear all mocked up and ready to install, but kids and work have kept me from doing much the last few years.

I would stress originality over a late model driveline. At worst, if the original engine is a seized block of rust, you maybe able to put an m189 from a 63-up 300se in there. The rest of the original driveline can't handle the torque of a v8.

Wait until you get a chance to see the frame in the thing. It is one massive hunk of steel. I can't fathom what it would cost to build an equivalent car nowadays!
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 12-13-2015, 01:14 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 7,515
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuiceMan View Post
Tomorrow I'm going to try to put a little marvel mystery oil in tops of the cylinders so it can kick start the process of loosing things up for when that time comes.

If you plan on getting the engine to turn then trying to run it, you might as well just haul it to a scrap metal facility and let it get turned into paperclips.

Yes a stuck engine can be made to run and yes there will be damage to otherwise serviceable parts. Just where does the rust from the cylinder walls go? It gets caught between the pistons / rings and bore. This is like dumping sand in to the carb with a bit of oil and calling it good.

Also consider that the fuel system will be filled with sludge, do you really want to damage a super expensive mechanical injector pump?

Remember, this engine was likely last run on leaded fuel. Lead scavenger additives used to prevent excessive lead build up are very corrosive above and beyond any moisture this engine has seen.

Talk to any professional engine builder / old car restorer / piston engine air craft restorer and they will tell you no different that what I'm telling you. ( I've been in and around the car business for 40 years and have also worked on lots of non automotive machinery.)

From post 35, read this and let it sink in a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus kallas View Post
. . . The basic engine is the same as what was used in the 300sl and exclusive to those models. Parts ain't cheap!!!
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 12-13-2015, 02:25 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 30
New Guy Here With a True "Barn Find" W189?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 SL320 View Post
If you plan on getting the engine to turn then trying to run it, you might as well just haul it to a scrap metal facility and let it get turned into paperclips.

Yes a stuck engine can be made to run and yes there will be damage to otherwise serviceable parts. Just where does the rust from the cylinder walls go? It gets caught between the pistons / rings and bore. This is like dumping sand in to the carb with a bit of oil and calling it good.

Also consider that the fuel system will be filled with sludge, do you really want to damage a super expensive mechanical injector pump?

Remember, this engine was likely last run on leaded fuel. Lead scavenger additives used to prevent excessive lead build up are very corrosive above and beyond any moisture this engine has seen.

Talk to any professional engine builder / old car restorer / piston engine air craft restorer and they will tell you no different that what I'm telling you. ( I've been in and around the car business for 40 years and have also worked on lots of non automotive machinery.)

From post 35, read this and let it sink in a bit.

I agree with this. I guess of course the nature of us car fanatics temporarily caused me to get excited over the thought of getting it started. I visited with the car a bit more today and made the decision to not touch the engine for the time being, I brought my Marvel Mystery Oil back home still full haha I will do the best that I can to preserve the internals and not try to take shortcuts. Patience is a virtue that I am only starting to grasp in my 30s and this is certainly a project that will require a lot of it.

I don't want anyone here to get the idea that I don't respect this car for what it is. I have absolutely no intentions of not preserving it to the maximum that I am capable of hence the reason why I also want it out of the barn so that it doesn't further deteriorate.

I do a good amount of gunsmith work on some very pricey and irreplaceable firearms for my personal collection which has helped to teach me to appreciate true craftsmanship and not to mess up things that an older generation took great pride in building.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 12-13-2015, 04:00 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 30
On today's visit I lucked up and found these underneath the front seat Click image for larger version

Name:	ImageUploadedByTapatalk1450039940.849773.jpg
Views:	135
Size:	7.4 KB
ID:	133721. I verified that that ignition key is correct. I cleaned the key up first then tried it out and the switch works very freely.

A few observations from today:

All knobs and buttons on the dash work very freely for their age. No binding. Radio knobs move smoothly and the frequency indicator even moves perfectly along with the dial. There appears to be an amplifier or tuner of some sort underneath the passenger seat still in place although the wiring isn't in good shape. Of course I know this means nothing as function but still great to know that they move freely.

Unfortunately the gear selector will not move at all (I didn't want to force it of course but I did apply moderate pressure) there's an indicator directly overtop of D however I assume that maybe the indicator is designed to overlap when the car is actually In drive? I wouldn't think it would have been left in drive when parked..... But here's a photo although the window is cloudy.

Click image for larger version

Name:	ImageUploadedByTapatalk1450040484.672131.jpg
Views:	202
Size:	38.7 KB
ID:	133722

I sprayed down a lot of hinges with some PB Blaster to get them moving a bit more freely. Made a big difference on the hood hinges. They are working great now. Also sprayed down all of the lug nuts just for good measure in perpetration for getting the wheels off whenever that time comes.

I verified that the car is its original color (paint code plate under the hood) the leather interior appears to be green and not just from mild/mildew.... I spoke with someone who remember the car and they confirmed that the seats were green and accented with piping.

Body panels really seem extremely solid. There's a good siZed dent in the driver's front fender. Rockers have some rust but they are WAY better than some examples I have seen. Otherwise I have not spotted any rust at all on 85% of the car's exterior panels.

Unfortunately the rear floors are shot. The screwdriver test quickly went right through them on both sides. However the tunnel seems fine so far. I haven't been able to get good access to the front floors yet but they do feel soft so I'm going to assume they are probably gone as well.

Front seats slide freely on their tracks and the center tunnel up front also looks good but of course this is not a thorough look just a quickie so who knows what the real situation is.

Looked through the back access panel in the trunk and I seen the leveling motor still in place. Trunk area seems extremely solid other than the spare tire area.

It's going to take a whole lot of work to get the car out without any mechanical damage. Which I think we already knew lol.

Please continue with the thoughts and suggestions guys. I appreciate your knowledge.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 12-13-2015, 08:18 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 7,515
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuiceMan View Post
I visited with the car a bit more today . . .
I like the sound of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JuiceMan View Post
I don't want anyone here to get the idea that I don't respect this car for what it is. I have absolutely no intentions of not preserving it to the maximum that I am capable of hence the reason why I also want it out of the barn so that it doesn't further deteriorate.
Yes, stopping the deterioration is a good thing. These days, patina is the in thing where some years ago restoring a car to where it ended up being a 1 to 1 scale model was the in thing.

To me is it just an old car that sat in a barn, I don't hold any aura around it since it is just a machine. However, it is a machine that can cost $$ to repair so minimizing damage is paramount.

If the mileage is truly 35,000, it might just cost a set of gaskets, a cylinder sleeve, one set of piston rings and a valve grind to get it going again.

I'm leaving the injection pump as an entirely separate operation. Have a look at the October 2015 edition of Road and Track, in the " Lost Art " section, they did a piece on Spica mechanical gasoline fuel injection. " Like clockwork- just weirder and full of flammable fluid. "

If funds don't allow for rebuilding the injector pump, in the short term consider a carb conversion ( if parts aren't too $ ) or a propane conversion. Do this only if the conversion can be done without irreversible mods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JuiceMan View Post
I do a good amount of gunsmith work on some very pricey and irreplaceable firearms for my personal collection which has helped to teach me to appreciate true craftsmanship and not to mess up things that an older generation took great pride in building.
It's good to hear you have detailed mechanical skills.

With any large project like this one, there must be a defined goal and strategy. I've seen ( and have done ) projects where they are taken completely apart, a few parts cleaned up,then car sits and eventually is sold " due to loss of interest"

The goal is going to be more or less defined by how much $ and time you have to put towards the project. ( Note, I didn't say "invest" as restorations generally cost more than the car will sell for when complete. Restoring the car is something that you have to want to do. )

I'd spend $ and time making mechanical parts function and leave cosmetic alone. A car that runs and drives but needs bodywork is far more valuable than one that has quick hap hazard body repairs, poor new paint and barely runs.

Also to that end, don't push the dent out. Sure, you can quickly make it look 90% better but getting that final 10 % could be more difficult due to that quick dent push out.

As for strategy and not losing interest, don't just take the entire car apart as that is the fun part, putting it back together is the more difficult part. The key is to work on one system at a time and restore parts as you go along. Say you decided to start with the brake system. Take a the drums off, clean / paint them the proper color then bag / box them. Next pull the backing plates and rebuild the wheel cylinders / brake hardware. Suspension would be next. and so on.

If you have to cut costs, don't be concerned about using worn but not worn out parts. A car that has all the bolts in their proper places but retains worn parts is far better and easier to make right than one that has a few new parts held on with miss matched fasteners / hammered on parts.

As time goes along, you will run out of steam, however, with proper planning that will occur just about the time there isn't much more to take apart or restore. But wait, you have shelves of fresh parts just waiting to be bolted back onto the car, this will keep you going as there is hope in finishing the project.


There is more but that should get things going.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 12-13-2015, 08:54 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 15,860
You might be able to 'shift' the transmission by removing the linkage at the transmission and throwing the rods by hand. I have done this on other cars.

Removing the linkage at the transmission would also tell you if the shifter linkage is locked up or the transmission.

I did run across an article about the air conditioning on these cars. It was so expensive to build at DM 3500 customers were told it was unnecessary to haggle over the price since it was being sold at cost.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 12-14-2015, 12:10 PM
klaus kallas's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Clayton, NC
Posts: 491
Idle,

Mine has the aforementioned A/C. It is a trunk mounted unit made by Artic Kar. Neat to look at, but as it comes out from the rear package shelf , only useful for the über important heads of state in the back seat.

Mine also has a front bench seat (which, oddly enough, is a rare option) and factory Hella fog lights.

Really would like to learn the history of mine. I can tell it lived around Washington DC in its earlier days and can only assume it was an embassy car of some sort....
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 12-16-2015, 10:23 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Middle Haddam, CT
Posts: 289
Best 300d

The best 300d I've seen in years was for sale in Germany in February 2014 for $115,000. I don't know what it actually sold for....
Attached Thumbnails
New Guy Here With a True "Barn Find" W189?-111_innen1%5B1%5D.jpg   New Guy Here With a True "Barn Find" W189?-dsc01733%5B1%5D.jpg  
__________________
Berfinroy in CT
Present vehicles:
1973 300 SEL 4.5
1959 Rolls Royce Silver Cloud I
Past vehicles;
1958 Bentley S 1
1976 ex-Max Hoffman 6.9
1970 300SEL 2.8
1958 Jaguar MK IX
1961 Jaguar MK IX
1963 Jaguar E-type factory special roadster
1948 Plymouth woody
1955 Morgan plus 4
1966 Shelby GT350H Mustang
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 12-16-2015, 02:12 PM
klaus kallas's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Clayton, NC
Posts: 491
Amazing what they seem to be bringing nowadays, although they are a rare and prestigious vehicle in the same vein as Rolls Royce. Maybe I should say "about time"!

Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page