Thread: Fuel economy
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Old 07-29-2008, 05:15 PM
dozer dozer is offline
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
Heat is only what is making the gasses expand. Its the aerodynamic flow of the gasses across the turbine that does the work, not the heat.

A turbine is a turbine, they all work by the push of gasses flowing over the work surfaces, the temperature makes very little difference. Thats why a turbo will make the same boost just as easily with 600*f exhaust as it can with 1600*f exhaust.
No offense intended by the following wording FI....I just want to be very clear:

The above is flat-out incorrect.

I think that by insisting on that 'windmill' view, you're holding yourself back from even greater turbo-mastery than you already have.

The turbine absolutely will NOT "make the same boost just as easily" with 600F gas as with 1,600F gas.

In fact, it will require -considerably- more mass-flow at 600F than at 1600F; to produce the same shaft-power (psi x cfm of boost, or compressor-massflow)

Again, a turbo-turbine is NOT just a windmill....NOT just a simple propeller...it IS a HEAT ENGINE.

....so you gotta remember your Carnot...

I sense that you're (reasonably) resisting changing your view of how turbos work just on my word....so I urge you to look it up in any turbomachinery textbook, and verify for yourself that what I'm saying here is true.

It's clear that you already know a ton of good stuff about turbos from the practical/usage side; so I think that if you give yourself the advantage of correctly viewing them as heat-engines instead of as simple 'fans', you'll find the use and tuning of them more intuitive, and even more rewarding.


PS; the Carnot numbers also imply that not only can more shaft-power be extracted from hotter gas, but also that a higher -percentage- of that higher energy can be extracted. (i.e. higher efficiency too)

That's why the output-power of heat-engines (including turbos) tends to rise NON-linearly with input temp. Double the temp, get four times the power....roughly that sort of relationship....and with much higher efficiency at the same time.

That first-order relationship between temp and both power and efficiency is why the jet-turbine guys are always pushing the limits of materials so they can raise the turbine-inlet temp just another 100 degrees.

It's also a partial factor in why adding an intercooler tends to reduce the boost a few psi at the same engine conditions as before.

It's not just the added flow-resistance of the IC....it's also the lower energy-content of the cooler exhaust, plus the reduced efficiency of the turbine at that new lower temp....it's a double-whammy on the turbine power output.

The same factor is why it's an advantage to wrap the headers....i.e., to maintain the gases as hot as possible going into the turbine.
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WANT to BUY: 3.0L diesel engine.

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1962 Cat D9-19A, 2,000 cu-in TD
1961 Cat 966B, D333 TD, powershift
1985 Mack MS300P 8.8L TDI, intercooled, crane-truck
1991 F350 4x4 5spd 7.3 IDI NA
1988 Dodge D50 4x4 5spd 2.4 Mitsu TD
1961 Lister-Petter 14hp/6kw Marine Corp genset weekly charging 5400 lbs of forklift batt for the off-grid homestead.
1965 Perkins 4-108 Fire/water Pump
1960 Deutz 20hp/8kw genset

Last edited by dozer; 07-29-2008 at 05:33 PM.
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