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Originally Posted by tankdriver
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People often lose sight of the forest for the leaves when talking about Israel.
Most here seem to think Israel is justified in killing over 200 Palestinians in retaliation for the killing of one Israeli. If Israel is justified in retaliation, how then are not the Palestinians justified in retaliating for their deaths?
In order to find justification for retaliation, then one must find the first death resulting in conflict between a jew and palestinian. Good luck with that. If you can't find it, then retaliatory right is determined by which side you happen to be on, not by justice. That makes the Palestinians no worse than the Israelis.
What is the goal of Israel's retaliation? It was an insufficient action for genocide. Their enemy has demonstrated that they will not be cowed. If the goal is punitive, then it is difficult to hold onto just-ness when not only they did not target the specific offenders, but also killed 230some more people than the offenders did.
One thing is definitely not the goal: to stop terror attacks.
In any case, all of that misses the point. Israel was created, and later seized more, territory from the Palestinians. The Palestinians lost. The Israelis oppress them. Many Palestinians continue to fight. Israelis fight back. Palestinians can't win because they are outmatched, so some of them kill civilians. They know it's wrong, so they commit suicide at the same time to they don't have to live with themselves. Israelis kill the ones fighting, sometimes the ones not fighting, and continue to oppress and make their lives hell on earth, prompting them to seek a better life in heaven. That desire is channeled and manipulated by power mongers.
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Good points. Let me take them one at a time, OK?
Point 1: Is Israel justified in killing 200 Palestininams for each Israeli killed? Of course not. However, How many Israelis have been killed in the rocket attacks so far? Here is an interesting link showint the deaths in Israel (19)and the amount of rockets launched against them so far(1888). The HAMAS guys can't seem to do much withtheir rockets!
http://vitalperspective.typepad.com/vital_perspective_clarity/2006/08/charts_photos_i.html
Point 2: Who shot first? The Arabs have been killing Jewish settlers since back in the 1920's when the British turned a blind eye to what the Arabs were doing in the Trans-Jordan. One must remember that there were always Jews in the area even under the Ottoman Empire. While the Ottomans kept everybody under control, when the British took over after WWI (Under a League of Nations Mandate), they allowed the Arabs to start killing Jews.
Point 3: See the article I posted by Debbie Schussel. It is eye opening.
Point 4: Isreal was NOT created from Palestine. There was no such natin as Palestine, Israel or Jordan until 1948 when the UN carved up the British Mandate of Trans-Jordan into three countries with Jordan being the biggest and Israel being the smallest. If I remember correctly Israel existed for 12 hours before the Arabs invaded. By Arabs I mean Jordanians, Egyptians, Syrians, Iraqis, and Lebonese. See the attached map. The Arabs thought that the Jews would do what they did under Hitler -- DIE MEEKLY. Who knew that they would figt for their survival and even keep their independence? From 1948 until 1967 Israel existed, but Palestine was under Egyptian or Jordanian occupation (see map). In 1967, the Egyptians, Syrians, Iraqis (remember they were all the UAR then) invaded again. Jordan joined in by shelling Jerusalem. Once again the Israelis did not go quietly into that dark night, but fought back -- and won! This time they took the territory that the invasion had come from (The West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights) They also took the Sinai Penninsula from Egypt. (See map)
Once again, in 1973 the Egyptians and the Syrians attacked Israel. Once again Israel beat them (see map)
Now you would think that after being atacked four times, the Israelis would never give up any of the territory they had taken. After all it gave them what they desperately needed room to defend themselve in. However, after the 1979 peace agreement with Egypt, they gav the Sinai back to Egypt. They aare also negotiating to give back some of the Golan Heights to Syria - if Syria acknowleges Israel's right to exist.
In all this, there was never any atempt by Egypt or Jordan to set up a Palestinian state in the territories they had held from 1949 until 1967. Only ISRAEL has tried to give the Palestinians a homeland. Imagine that!