Biodieseler threatened with felony charges!
 

A retired chemist and his wife in Illinois are being threatened with felony charges — for operating a car that runs on vegetable oil and diesel fuel.

The Decatur Herald-Review reports that two agents from the state revenue department came to the home of David and Eileen Wetzel in what one state legislator said amounted to "intimidation."

The Wetzels have been asked to post a $2,500 bond to get special licenses as fuel suppliers and receivers, even though they don't fit the state's own definitions. Eileen Wetzel calculated that the bond would cover their motor fuel tax for 51 years. And David Wetzel points out people who use hybrid vehicles are not taxed for their vehicle's electrical use.

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I knew it was only a matter of time before local, state, and/or federal governments' cronies started coming down on the biodiesel/WVO crowd for "tax evasion".

:mad:

Mike

Big oil is losing profits (however small they are), they put pressure on government, government cracks down on the little man.

f'in bastards if you ask me, how much tax money are they wasting in pursuing this idiotic case?

Its about time. I've been wondering why the states have not tapped them for tax dough for so long.

Yeah that's some serious dough they've been missing out on. We're getting into such a huge deficit that I guess it makes sense they're squeezing the little man eh? Yup, they could be pulling, what, like $300/year from these folks, damn that's a lot of dough.

Anything to keep the government from having to stop giving big corporations tax breaks...

Can we move this thread to Open Discussion please?

Why? Isn't this diesel related?

dollars uber alles---sig heil --- form your militias---of course you are gutless and it is 30 years to late---welcome to Amerika. You don't own your own land, you don't control your own children, your polititians are puppets: why worry about it now. I tried to warn people 30 years ago but they where to busy rendering to Ceasar when there was none. Congradulations, you now have an oligachy, your serfs, no Constitution for you thanks to social security. You are a limited liability corporatition under Roman civil law. Put the mark on your head and live with it.

whaaaaatt???

sounds like you went to work drunk today. :D

My alternate fuel policy...
 

..is to keep my mouth shut about what, where and when.

To use the latest term of agreement....

WERD.

Ditto
 

This thread is about Illinois politics and kind of typical from what we've heard in the past. Over and over again.:rolleyes:

This is nothing more than big oil pressing to make an example of someone to scare others from doing the same:(

3 points to make:
1) We all need to share in paying for our roads, but we need a new way. Taxing fuel worked previously because everybody had to stop at a retail pump to get their fuel. Just like napster forced music publishers and artists to stop crying about the internet downloads that don't pay royalties, and find a new way to get your money. Kids don't go to record stores anymore, so find a new way to get your money. Stop crying that a veg oil burner didn't pay his road tax and find a new way to get your money. How about, at the yearly car inspections that most states have, multiply odometer reading since last inspection times the GVW, and send a corresponding tax bill. Eliminate the fuel taxes. That way everyone pays according to road use and the corresponding burden they put on that road. Find a new way to get your money.

2) Road tax is unrelated to fixing roads. Here in Mass, the Mass Pike has long been paid for, and tolls more than cover ongoing maintenance. Proposals to reduce or eliminate tolls at certain areas have come up on occasion, always to get shot down, and the latest one was shot down by our new governor because there would be "too much revenue lost." Those were his words. No mention of it hurting road maintenance, that has nothing to do with it. The argument that an alternative-fuel-user is trying to get out of road tax and that's the only reason they're doing it is a pretty hollow argument. I use alternative fuels to get off foreign oil dependency. If alternatives get more expensive than petroleum, I'll still use them, and then begin a new search for cheaper alternatives yet that are not petroleum, I will not throw in the towel and revert back to petroleum.

3) I'm baffled that the tone of several posts from Forced is that "Diesel Benzes were designed for diesel and no other fuels should be considered" (to paraphrase). Yet his signature is full of mods, up to and including Methanol injection. Does anyone else see the irony?

ok, here is how i see it.

for the record i do not use biodiesel, WVO or SVO. mainly because i don't want to hurt my engine. not because i believe that the engine can't run it or shouldn't run it, but because i live in an apartment and i cannot filter or brew the fuel safely. it is just not a feasable option for me.

now, i know that road taxes need to be paid. so what i would propose is the DMV should offer the option of paying road tax with your regestration (a flat fee). and then give you some kind of stamp on your registration saying it was paid. this way if you were ever questioned about not payign you would have proof that you paid. and then you could make as much fuel as you wanted and still have contributed to the roads.

I think he is acting like a troll. Saying something he knows will get everyone in the discussion all riled up. :(

He is very knowledgeable/helpful on topics not pertaining to biodiesel though... :cool:

Yes the comment was bait for sure. I almost added a reply saying something to the effect of "don't take the bait", but then I was so pissed about the comment that I took the bait :D :silly:

There is more to this than meets me eyes...

Ahh yes, it goes very deep. We should take it to OD and analyze Lance.

What are you doing in here anyway Mistress? :D

SirNik84: that will not work sadly. you see that would make it an illegal tax.

First you would be paying it twice (since they CLEARLY would not remove the fuel tax they would want both)

But then currently its an excise tax. this means it taxes WHAT YOU USE if you do not use it you do not pay it.

To make it an apportioned tax is very different (like your state income tax)

You would then be "adding" effectively to your state tax. What happens to the person with the electric car or the person who gets 50mpg and are paying the same tax as the person who gets 8mpg with there motorhome.

They simply should not be bothering these people. as long as they are not selling is distributing the fuel they are breaking no laws and the state critters need to back off.

That would be like charging you a fine for adding some "additive" to your fuel you bought from pepboys I mean your buying 16oz less gas for that tank your sticking it to the state for 16oz of tax.

My taxes pay for the road. Accusing me of tax evasion for not paying for gasoline is like accusing someone of tax evasion for using a bicycle or for not paying ENOUGH taxes because they use a motorcycle and get 50mpg or better.

Its silly and they know it someones got a big stick up there butts and needs someone to grab that stick and twist it a bit. Wake them up.

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/

Tax Hybrids Electrical use?
 

Does not make sense to me. The energy from the typical hybrid all comes from the gasoline used to charge to batteries. The running on electricity statement is misleading, unless it is a plug-in hybrid.

We all should not forget, the inventor of the diesel engine, Dr. Diesel, designed it with the prime fuel being vegetable oil produced by the farmers. The first tree hugger and alternative fuel forefather.

thats because thats not where it gets most of its E from.

Regenerative Braking is where it gets most of its E from. otherwise there would be little benefit to running a hybrid. :-) ie everytime they stop they recover some of that energy (a lot actually its really impressive) which reduces the demand when they GO again.

also the IC's are instant on. they are shut off when at a standstill when you GO if there is enough E you just go on electric and then at around 25mph the IC kicks in to provide the extra go power. when you "coast" or brake to a stop the IC turns off and the regenerative braking kicks in so your now not using any gas and your recovering E from the regen system.

Pretty cool the problem is 50mpg blows. a 25 year old rabbit gets that and any modern vw or mb diesel can also get that.

Just wait till they can make a diesel instant on (they are working on it) then you will see some truly impressive mileage. if they do not intentionally cripple it. 150mpg should be easy with diesel and new battery tech.

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/

Yup, and to add. You can get a TDI Lupo or Polo that get in the 60-80MPG range.

What are car inspections? :D

This would work for me...my odometer stopped about 50,000 miles ago.

-Jim

except that this PUNISHED people who get more fuel effecient cars. its like slapping them in the face if you ask me :-) I think it should be the way this kind of tax is SUPPOSED to be. by apportionment. number of people in country who have cars divided into how much money is ACTUALLY needed to support the road infrastructure MINUS fed money grants tolls etc.. and THATS how much every driver pays. THAT would be fair. but it would have to have oversight so it is not like our current federal taxes ie 35%+ of every dime you make. :-( ie WAY more money than they can possibly justify.

ALSO I would gladly JUST pay the "tax" per gallon on the alternative fuels I use as long as I can deduct my COSTS in making this fuel from it. IE I am doing my share to help the environment and reduce our fuel load I should not be punished for this.

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/

Right on! :stupid:

[quote=nerys;1444924]ALSO I would gladly JUST pay the "tax" per gallon on the alternative fuels I use as long as I can deduct my COSTS in making this fuel from it. IE I am doing my share to help the environment and reduce our fuel load I should not be punished for this.
quote]

Amen, brother! I pay the tank and fuel tax fee in VA--no problem with it at all. My car uses and wears the roads just like everyone else's. But, good gosh, give me something in return for reducing dependence on foreign oil, reducing emissions and making a fuel from a waste product that ends up in land fills. If Exxon can get incentive money from the government, why can't I?

if they taxed the odometer, id kick back my miles for that day ;)

I don't think we should pay the tax at all. I pay taxes on my vehicle and registration each year for my road use. The tax on fuel is about income for the state. We really really need to start taking back our government.

"......this story certainly reinforces decades worth of conspiracy stories about oil companies quashing competition by lobbying for unfair regulations...."


F'n greedy bastards!!

What is the problem with a thread about alternative to DIesel fuel being in the diesel discussion board? If this was on the OD it would be overlooked by most of the gassers there......



...

The key to that is the methanol is not going through my $$$ injection pump.

I'm all for mass produced B20-100. Home made fuel is what I oppose.

After what I have seen of the commercial stuff I will continue to make my own. My quality beats theirs hands down. It only takes one bad apple in the commercial bidiesel world to ruin their reputation. I know my reputation and I am responsible only to myself. I know that I won't go ahead and ship a bad batch to the end user because I AM THE END USER! It's my Mercedes it is going into and I respect my car too much to feed it crap.

I am responsablility for my own actions. Too bad the commercial guys don't take their responsabilities as seriously as I do.

(They are not all bad, but there is enough bad biodiesel being sold out there to scare me off of it.)

-Jim

I agree with you. There are alot of good retailers out there but there are also some just trying to make a buck as cheaply as possible.

Retail BioD needs to have mandatory standards put in place like E85 has.

My sentiments exactly.

Mike

I don't follow your argument. For the additive, I am adding 16oz of stuff to a tank (15-50 gals) diesel or gasoline. How is this an additive when you are maybe adding 16oz of D2 to a tank (15-50 gals) of whatever it is?

Supposedly the gas tax, diesel tax is for the highway fund. Ag fuel is not taxed which is why ag fuel is dyed red and NOT supposed to be in your tank.

How will you ensure that they will go in and get their odometers read? What if they tell you then "Sorry, your are SOL. I am broke." Easier to collect at the pump. Look at all the people that start crying at the last minute because they owe $XXX to the IRS and cannot pay.

Did you miss the whole point? We need to make the pump go away. If the argument is..."we can't make the pump go away because we need the tax revenue" then we'll never get off foreign oil dependency. Find a new way to collect the tax revenue.

(Of course the best solution is to reduce government spending to allow the freedom to eliminate the need for the tax revenue, but that's another conversation)

Like what? the honor system?

LoneRanger you are right on
 

I know what you are talking about. 99 percent of the public have no idea of what you just said.

On another note, if you use WVO as an additive to diesel I didn't know if the percent was regulated by law.

Additive
Function: noun: a substance added to another in relatively small amounts to effect a desired change in properties

As far as the additive argument goes, I have heard many people tell me it won't work, but nobody has said anything convincing as to why it won't work. You could run Lucas or Powerservice full-strength in your tank (or 99% concentration to be legal) if you were rich/dumb enough... so why not run 99%WVO? The only problem I could see is that you would be running it in a separate, non-DOT-approved tank, in the passenger compartment (if you have a wagon)... but that is a separate issue... I don't think there is any law on the books that defines a maximum allowable percentage of additive... someone please correct me if I am wrong.

The other thing that I was surprised nobody else picked up on was that Illinois told Wetzel that he had to register as both a fuel supplier and a fuel reciever (because he supplied fuel to himself:mad: ), yet it was impossible for him to do so because he lacked the facilities (and the 30K gallon storage) to be considered as such. Furthermore, he offered to pay the $240 in taxes yet there was no way in which he could... there was no-one to write the check to... I am no legal expert, nor would I want to be, but this seems a little fishy...

As far as I am aware, there IS in fact a way for WVOers and Biodieselers (yes, contrary to popular, uninformed belief there is a difference). You could do it the same way commercial drivers do by filing your IFTA paperwork every quarter. This is an additional tax, on top of what they pay at the pump, that pays fuel tax to every state they burn it in based on the miles traveled in each state... I personally am not gonna do this because I don't believe that system is right. Also, you would be hard pressed legally to prove that I burn WVO on public roads :) Think about that one for a sec :D "No sir officer, I just use this alternative fuel additive system off-road:scholar: "

Perhaps so but in which case would it look like you are trying to evade the tax? Lets say there is a mistake on my IRS forms. Accurately calculated, I owe $4000. Lets say I make what I claim to be an honest mistake and I paid $5000. Lets say in another scenario, I claim an honest mistake and pay $3000. Which is more likely to be suspect?

Yes, I know some feel that this tax isn't right, isn't fair, etc, etc. However, we are in a more civilized age and if that is the case, we should take it up thru proper channels. I'm sorry if things don't go your way. They don't go my way all the time either. That and the fact that we had the Boston Tea Party is NOT and excuse to just flaunt the laws. That was then and this is now. If someone could just flaunt a law they felt was unjustified then where will it lead? Yes, you don't win all the time playing by the rules. Sorry, that is how things are. Don't like it? Leave this country and head to Utopia. I hear it is mild and very lovely all year round.

I speed, I should be willing to pay the fine and have my license removed. I killed somebody yesterday and I should expect the cops to come looking for me. It is that simple. If you are unsure if you can be brewing something like this where there is revenue concerned, consult an attorney. When I was having a feud with my neighbor, I consulted an attorney where I learnt that the easement between the road and sidewalk is public access and as long as I pick up poop, my dogs can be there. After which, my dogs were on the same spot killing his grass. What could he do about it? Very little. Could the attorney be wrong? Sure. Did that consult minimize my risk? You bet.

I always reckoned that the "marginal tax rate" is the tipping point where UNCLE finally goes too far, and shots are heard....

Tell you what, FREEDOM is why my dad came here from a commie armpit. There's more freedom back in that commie armpit ( actually too much - lawlessness) than here. More sad than ironic. I still put my 3.5 yrs in uniform in and love this place, but I DO have my marginal tax rate in mind. And a helluva arsenal. DONT TREAD ON ME.

Well, I saw this coming.

Soon it will be impossible to reclaim WVO without a permit and an expensive license to process it.

All the electrical energy still originates from the GASOLINE in a hybrid, unless you only go downhill or downwind. The regenerative braking is just an energy transfer process from the car's kinetic energy into the battery.

Taxing the electrical use of a hybrid still does not make sense, only gasoline provides the source of energy.

There is such a thing as a plugin electric vehicle and also plugin hybrids.

I'm not sure I understand the analogy... are you saying that it would seem suspect to burn a larger percentage of additive than diesel and pay tax on the diesel only?... As far as I am aware, there is no max. percentage of allowable additives you can put in your tank... so legally what is the problem? The laws are not ambiguous, that is the reason for having them...

I think here you are getting at the essence of the problem. What are the proper channels?

This type of reactionary, trollish comment has no value whatsoever in this discussion... Any idiot knows that a democracy is what its citizens make it.

Why should I have to consult an attorney about this? All I am doing is burning some veg in my car... whats the big deal? Its not as if the road wear from all the veg and homebrew bio burners worldwide is even noticeable, and I would be willing to bet that it costs the government more to tax us than is gained in revenue by doing so... Furthermore, this hobby shared by a very few couldn't possibly be a threat to the existing bureaucratic infrastructure because there simply isn't enough feedstock, or public interest, to replace even a minute fraction of the petroleum distillates and their bio-counterparts (commercial ethanol and commercial biodiesel)... so why persecute this group of people at the $$$expense$$$ of everyone else???? I think you might want to take a closer look at the issue before making silly nationalist rants...

Yes, my original post said "typical hybrid". For a plug-in hybrid, the source of the electricity is important to consider... was it from your solar panels (not taxed) or was it from the grid? Energy grid tax revenue probably does not support the roadway costs.....