Lets have a WVO argument - Page 8 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

RichC · #**106** 08-17-2007, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palangi

Ya know, that line of BS that anyone who doesn't agree with you guys is a pawn of big business and / or big oil is getting old. Don't y'all have anything new and original??

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Hello Palangi

I did not mean to bore you.

Here is some new stuff for you.

And maybe it is getting old to you because it has been happening for a long time !!!!

......

Big oil tanks up: Exxon's profit nears $10B this quarter.
(this is profits for a 4 month period)

http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/earnings/2005-10-27-xom_x.htm

Expert from above article...

"That is the most a U.S. company has earned from operations in a three-month period and greater than the annual gross domestic product of entire nations"

.....

Oil Industry Seeks to Cast Huge Profits as No Big Deal

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/27/AR2005102702399.html

Expert from above article...

"By most familiar comparisons, the $9.92 billion profit earned by Exxon Mobil Corp. in just three months is almost unimaginable. It would cover all Social Security benefit payments for three months. It would pay for an Ivy League education for about 60,000 kids. It would pay the average list price for more than 160 Boeing 737s. It would fund the military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan for more than two months."

........

Thank You
Have Fun!
RichC

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#**107** 08-17-2007, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

.

Hello Palangi

I did not mean to bore you.

Here is some new stuff for you.

And maybe it is getting old to you because it has been happening for a long time !!!!

......

Big oil tanks up: Exxon's profit nears $10B this quarter.
(this is profits for a 4 month period)

http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/earnings/2005-10-27-xom_x.htm

Expert from above article...

"That is the most a U.S. company has earned from operations in a three-month period and greater than the annual gross domestic product of entire nations"

.....

Oil Industry Seeks to Cast Huge Profits as No Big Deal

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/27/AR2005102702399.html

Expert from above article...

"By most familiar comparisons, the $9.92 billion profit earned by Exxon Mobil Corp. in just three months is almost unimaginable. It would cover all Social Security benefit payments for three months. It would pay for an Ivy League education for about 60,000 kids. It would pay the average list price for more than 160 Boeing 737s. It would fund the military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan for more than two months."

........

Thank You
Have Fun!
RichC

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So what?

You do realize that when companies profit, everyone profits. They don't make profit at the expense of someone else. It's not a zero-sum game.

You also surely realize that "big oil" employs hundreds of thousands of Americans of the blue and white-collar variety, right?

Furthermore, I'm sure that you understand that not just hundreds of thousands, but likely millions of investors profit either directly or indirectly from a profitable company, right?

Look, if you are a proponent of vegetable oil and/or biodiesel, go for it. But get off of your bloody high horse about profitable businesses.

Lew · #**108** 08-17-2007, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

That's not the point. The point is that when you save $1000, you are not being accurate about it. When you figure out costs, you have to add in everything as though somebody were setting up a shop to do it for you otherwise, if my car were to need no parts and plenty of wrenching, I could say the cost was very low since we just discounted my labor, tools, etc, etc.

If I had a shop, you need to calculate the rent, utilities, labor, cost of storage of merchandise, etc, etc. You cannot say that you bought something for $10 and you sold it for $20 and therefore the profit is $10.

If I were to do it, I'd figure out the cost of the equipment, space cost, time, wear and tear on the transport vehicle and anything else that involves the production of fuel. Time is money. What would you have to pay someone to do that sort of work. Anything short of that, you are giving a bogus number. Inaccurate figures are good for suckering in people and have no practical purpose.

This reminds me of my grandfather's mule. He bought it, plowed with it and worked it for a year, then sold it for what he paid for it. My Dad thought that was pretty good. My grandfather, however, reminded Dad that he'd had to feed the mule for a year!

RichC · #**109** 08-17-2007, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrhills0146

So what?

You do realize that when companies profit, everyone profits. They don't make profit at the expense of someone else. It's not a zero-sum game.

No, everyone does not profit.
The people highest up in the companies profit.
That is why they do it, to make a profit.

Quote:

You also surely realize that "big oil" employs hundreds of thousands of Americans of the blue and white-collar variety, right?

Yes, I do realize they employ many people.
I do not know the statistics but I bet many of them
get paid very low wages for what they do.

Quote:

Furthermore, I'm sure that you understand that not just hundreds of thousands, but likely millions of investors profit either directly or indirectly from a profitable company, right?

Yes people who are wealthy enough to invest in a company may make a profit doing so.
Or they may loose money ?
But millions of people are getting crushed under the weight of big business.
Being forced to choose between food or medication, childcare or gas to get to work.
And it is getting worse.

Quote:

Look, if you are a proponent of vegetable oil and/or biodiesel, go for it. But get off of your bloody high horse about profitable businesses.

This is a debate about WVO what do you want me to say ??
The high price of fuel is one of the reasons I use it.

I am not on a "bloody high horse"
I am doing the best I can to see the world for what it is.
I simply posted links to two major newspapers.
How in the world is that being on a "bloody high horse" ??

Thank You
Never mind the Bullocks !!
Have Fun !
RichC

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#**110** 08-17-2007, 08:25 AM

May I suggest a course in remedial economics.

aklim · #**111** 08-17-2007, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

Big oil tanks up: Exxon's profit nears $10B this quarter.
(this is profits for a 4 month period)

http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/earnings/2005-10-27-xom_x.htm

Expert from above article...

"That is the most a U.S. company has earned from operations in a three-month period and greater than the annual gross domestic product of entire nations"

Excerpt from just a little further down that was conveniently omitted to make your point.

• Revenue up 32% to $100.7 billion. That is greater than the annual GDP of all but just 38 of the world's economies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

Oil Industry Seeks to Cast Huge Profits as No Big Deal

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/27/AR2005102702399.html

Expert from above article...

"By most familiar comparisons, the $9.92 billion profit earned by Exxon Mobil Corp. in just three months is almost unimaginable. It would cover all Social Security benefit payments for three months. It would pay for an Ivy League education for about 60,000 kids. It would pay the average list price for more than 160 Boeing 737s. It would fund the military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan for more than two months."

Yet another conveniently omitted excerpt

A $9.9 billion quarterly profit is mostly a function of Exxon Mobil's size. It had sales of $100 billion this quarter, more than any other U.S. company. At its current rate of growth, Exxon Mobil will be the biggest U.S. corporation this year by revenue, bigger than Wal-Mart Stores Inc., which had $288.19 billion in revenue last year. Generally, the bigger the company, the bigger the bottom line.

aklim · #**112** 08-17-2007, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

This reminds me of my grandfather's mule. He bought it, plowed with it and worked it for a year, then sold it for what he paid for it. My Dad thought that was pretty good. My grandfather, however, reminded Dad that he'd had to feed the mule for a year!

Possible medical care, shelter the list goes on.

RichC · #**113** 08-17-2007, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Excerpt from just a little further down that was conveniently omitted to make your point.

.

I did not omit anything.
I am the one that gave you the link to the articles.

What did you want me to do post both articles in there entirety?
I think there may be copyright problems if I did that.

Even the points you added from the articles support what I was saying.

Thank You
RichC

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aklim · #**114** 08-17-2007, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

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I did not omit anything.
I am the one that gave you the link to the articles.

What did you want me to do post both articles in there entirety?
I think there may be copyright problems if I did that.

I didn't post the entire article either. Just the relevant sections so we know the other part of the story. If you are talking about profit, maybe revenue would make the number more relevant although it diminishes the point you are trying to make but it would be a little more balanced.

RichC · #**115** 08-17-2007, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrhills0146

May I suggest a course in remedial economics.

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Hello mrhills0146

If you want to discuss the topic of WVO with me.
Do not criticize my intelligence.
That is offensive.

We can play the name calling game all day long,
and get nowhere.

Support what you say with facts.
Do not attack me personally.
Or I will not discuss this with you.

Thank you
RichC

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Hatterasguy · #**116** 08-17-2007, 09:51 AM

If oil ran out tomarrow, could we make enough biodiesel to power everything?

No, we couldn't make enough.

Its a fringe fuel that will never amount to much.

People have been predicting us running out of oil for quite a long time. The problem with those preditions is that as the price goes up more reserves come online. But I'm pretty confident that I will be pumping diesel fuel into my SDL for at least the next 100 years.

How am I a tool of the oil companies? I don't know anyone who works for one, they don't control me in any way. I drive a car that gets good fuel mileage and I don't drive more than I have to? Thats a lame line.

As for there profits, you need to look at the whole picture, and not listen to what the dumb media prints. $10B profits sound like a like, until you realize its only like a 5%(off the top of my head) profit margin. Thats pretty slim, if I were a shareholder in that company I would like to see more. If you complain about there profits, make sure you don't own any of there stock in your 401K or mutual funds, because some of that money goes into your pocket.

RichC · #**117** 08-17-2007, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

I didn't post the entire article either. Just the relevant sections so we know the other part of the story. If you are talking about profit, maybe revenue would make the number more relevant although it diminishes the point you are trying to make but it would be a little more balanced.

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Profit would be a smaller number than revenue.

Profit takes into account all that they spent to make that amount of money.

Profit : the excess of returns over expenditure in a transaction or series of transactions; especially : the excess of the selling price of goods over their cost

.........

Revenue is the total amount of money they made.

Revenue : the total income produced by a given source <a property expected to yield a large annual revenue>

.....

I don't see how using revenue would make my point more balanced.
It would just increase the numbers.
There revenue is defiantly higher than profits.

Thank you
RichC

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Palangi · #**118** 08-17-2007, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

.

Hello Palangi

I did not mean to bore you.

Here is some new stuff for you.

And maybe it is getting old to you because it has been happening for a long time !!!!

......

Big oil tanks up: Exxon's profit nears $10B this quarter.
(this is profits for a 4 month period)

http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/earnings/2005-10-27-xom_x.htm

Expert from above article...

"That is the most a U.S. company has earned from operations in a three-month period and greater than the annual gross domestic product of entire nations"

.....

Oil Industry Seeks to Cast Huge Profits as No Big Deal

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/27/AR2005102702399.html

Expert from above article...

"By most familiar comparisons, the $9.92 billion profit earned by Exxon Mobil Corp. in just three months is almost unimaginable. It would cover all Social Security benefit payments for three months. It would pay for an Ivy League education for about 60,000 kids. It would pay the average list price for more than 160 Boeing 737s. It would fund the military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan for more than two months."

........

Thank You
Have Fun!
RichC

.

OK, we get that you are an anti-capitalist. Your kollege perfessers did a great job indoctrinating you in Marxism.

If you really want to screw big business and big oil and GWB and the evil capitalist system, and save the environment at the same time, there is a simple solution. You could get rid of all your cars and replace them with horses. (Just be sure you clean up after them).

We would even let you come back and tell us about how many miles you get per bucket of oats.

#**119** 08-17-2007, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

As for there profits, you need to look at the whole picture, and not listen to what the dumb media prints. $10B profits sound like a like, until you realize its only like a 5% profit margin. Thats pretty slim, if I were a shareholder in that company I would like to see more. If you complain about the profits that they make make sure you don't own any of there stock in your 401K or mutual funds, because some of that money goes into your pocket.

You're wasting your time.

I just spent an entire two weeks working with a "profits are evil" type of guy (he was also a union rep, to make it worse), he was actually convinced that there is something inherently bad about large companies making money and that they are just these greedy entities whose entire function is to "stick it to the little guy." He was completely oblivious to the fact that the owners of these companies (the stockholders) are a bunch of "little guys" with 401k plans. He was an otherwise intelligent guy, but he just didn't get it.

I will never understand that mindset, apparently these folks see it as a zero-sum game where anyone who is successful is automatically taking resources from someone else. These are the same folks who will complain about the salary of their CEO, even if their company is doing well for everyone. "Remedial economics" won't help, this is a symptom of some kind of fear-based world view that has nothing to do with the reality we live in. I've given up arguing with these folks.

What's ironic, of course, is the only chance that "alternate fuels" have of expanding beyond the lunatic fringe is with the big oil companies. They are the only ones with the resources and infrastructure to make them available on a large scale. At some point these "alternate fuels" may actually become economically viable (if the price of petro fuel gets high enough), then "big oil" will simply take over the entire business. If/when they decide it's worthwhile, they will just buy up all the "mom and pops" and thank all the crazies for some free R&D and publicity.

Based on their current PR campaign, I'm guessing BP will be the first (but only if the cost of oil gets high enough). At that point, WVO will become valuable and will be bought up for processing into commercial BD, which will put all the DIY folks out of business anyway. I'm guessing that this will start happening in 5-10 years and commercial BD may eventually put a 5-10% dent in the petro market. We'll have to wait and see.

RichC · #**120** 08-17-2007, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

If oil ran out tomarrow, could we make enough biodiesel to power everything

No, we couldn't make enough.?

Yes, someone would step up to the plate and make enough.
Prices would skyrocket for a while, but eventually level off.
That is the way a free market works, supply and demand.
But what is going on with crude oil is defiantly not free market economics.

Quote:

Its a fringe fuel that will never amount to much.

Because people with a vested interest are doing what they can
to keep it a fringe fuel.
But try as you might you will never be able to tell the future.
You would go pick the winning lottery numbers if you could.
None of us know what will happen with bio fuels.

Quote:

People have been predicting us running out of oil for quite a long time. The problem with those preditions is that as the price goes up more reserves come online. But I'm pretty confident that I will be pumping diesel fuel into my SDL for at least the next 100 years.

If you took the current rate of inflation of fuel prices and calculated
that out for the next 100 years the price of fuel would be astronomical !!

Get back with me about that when you roll up to the fuel pump in the
year 2107 with your 125 year old car.
Don't forget your wheelchair ..

Quote:

How am I a tool of the oil companies? I don't know anyone who works for one, they don't control me in any way. I drive a car that gets good fuel mileage and I don't drive more than I have to? Thats a lame line.

Your paying very high prices for fuel because of the big oil companies.
When there are many other ways of getting around.

Quote:

As for there profits, you need to look at the whole picture, and not listen to what the dumb media prints. $10B profits sound like a like, until you realize its only like a 5%(off the top of my head) profit margin. Thats pretty slim, if I were a shareholder in that company I would like to see more. If you complain about there profits, make sure you don't own any of there stock in your 401K or mutual funds, because some of that money goes into your pocket.

10 billion dollars is a lot of money anywhere...
That is the problem I have been talking about.
The oil companies have gotten so huge they are disproportionate with
any other company in the world.
You have to make special case arguments just to talk about their economics.

I am defiantly not invested in big oil.
I am not even invested at all.

Thank You
Have Fun
RichC

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