My 190d 2.2 is a blank slate. What should i use for a 1 tank WVO conversion in MN?
 

Car is an 85 190d 2.2 OM601. Drives great, starts right up. New filter, glow plugs and relay in the mail. Now i want to convert it to veggie oil and am wondering what people have had success with in cold climates? I am in MN and it has gotten as low as -15 and winterized diesel + diesel 911 gelled up on me! But its been above 25 lately and i am itching to do my first wvo conversion! Here is my scenario:
I have plenty of garage space in a non insulated, non heated garage. When im out there wrenching, i have a 125,000 btu reddy heater (diesel/kero).
I also have some space in the utility room in the basement of the house that is heated.
My friend manages an oil change place and says i can have all the metal or plastic 55 gal drums i want (the whole shop is actually heated by the old oil they drain from cars! Really cool)
So i am wondering, what i should start out doing. So far i planned on getting a drum or two with some 2 micron socks and finding my wvo source. I will probably have to filter indoors during the winter.

Now with the car i was planning on getting some injector line heaters like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/single-injector-line-heater-kit-for-WVO-SVO-conversions_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6763QQihZ003QQitemZ130195344400QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
making my own HIH aluminum coolant heated hose lines with one of these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-5-Roof-Gutter-De-Icing-Cables-125-POWER-CORD-WVO_W0QQitemZ360019962813QQihZ023QQcategoryZ3188QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
that i would zip tie to it and splice into the block heater's plug.

Do you think that would be sufficient for the winter weather? Ideally i would run 100% wvo, but i will probably have to settle for 50/50 in the winter. Do you think i will need a heated filter or any of that expensive crap?
Do the stick on heating pads for the fuel tank work well with our cars, or is it best to put an internal heating element in there?

Are you seriously considering a 1 tank system for Minnesota?

Dear Christ in Heaven. That is not a good idea. You will kill that lovely car. You must go two tank. Frybrid, Greasecar (modified heavily) or PlantDrive.

Good luck to you, please don't singletank that car in MN.

If I ever moved back to the arctic regions like N Wis where I came from, I wouldn't even think of one tank system, like I run around on down here south of Miami. I would have two tank system with heat starting with fuel tank pickup to HoH, less apt to leak into coolant versus HiH. Flat plate heat exchanger, more plates the better before going to heated fuel filter, everything well insulated. Injection line heaters a must, block heaters, I like the kind that circulates water versus the freeze plug or oil dipstick type, I might even have a heating pad on oil pan. More heat the better. I might even have a heat exchanger on return line to tank.

hahah wellll i thought if i went overkill with the fuel line heaters (always heated when the block heater is plugged in) that i would be able to pull off the single tank! Anyways, my secondary plan was to use a small under hood tank of diesel to get the car to operating temp and then have a switchover valve. But i was thinking SMALL as in like the SLS resivoir bottle (.75 gal or so) from a 16v in there for pure diesel. Think thats a better idea?

i know what your talking about with the coolant circulating block heaters! When i picked up my 2nd 190d parts car, i hear this PSHHH when i plug it in! I was so confused for awhile, but then i deducted that it must be circulating warm coolant in the block. Would it be possible to retrofit one of these to circulate warm coolant across the fuel lines when the car is off?

You are in a climate where using veg oil in general is not feasible about 80% of the year....not to mention running veg oil in general can ruin your engine.

The 190d 2.2 is already a very fuel efficient reliable car, why wreck it? Treat it right and run dino diesel only....and it will reward you with many more miles of faithful service.

Unless you are driving 40+ continuous miles each day each way, it will not work, because at those temps it will take forever and a half to heat the oil properly before you could even use it. With that tiny little 4 cylinder it'd probably take you 20 freeway miles on diesel just to get the veg oil to the right temperature in a heavily heated TWO tank system. One tank is out of the question....it will wreck your car. Cost of a two tank system is significant and its a lot of work to install. I'd re-consider before doing anything you'd regret.

oh weak
well so much for that idea! Maybe an alternative would be to beef up my filters and once the car is warm, toss 50% veggie oil into the stock system before long trips?

If you really want to run WVO in that climate, turn it into Biodiesel first and expect that you won't be able to run it year-round. A processor will be much cheaper than a conversion that'll actually work in MN.

Also, don't think you can just get away with heating the fuel tank - if anything goes wrong, you're going to end up with a car on fire.

how about a big no on that

run biodiesel and keep it clean

That would do nothing but likely leave you at the side of the road and ruin your injectors or coke up the engine's piston rings.

You might be able to get away with a heavily filtered mix of diesel/WVO in the hottest of the summer months, but it will still do engine damage.

Just run diesel! Your car already gets 35+ mpg!

In Minnesota, do a two-tank or (as the don suggested) biodiesel.

The primary problem of one-tank conversions is sufficient heat upon startup. Electric heaters will only go so far.

Let's imagine that you DID somehow manage to heat the oil to 140F right on startup: the engine itself it infinitely larger than the fuel being injected, and thus your fuel will be cold the instant it touches the cold engine.

Think about it. I am a proponent of veggie conversions, and in some climates a one-tank is reasonable. Ehemmm.... not in Minnesota.

yeah im pretty much talked out of the one tank approach... Biodiesel gels up way earlier than diesel doesnt it?

And about your engine being cold point... isn't that what glow plugs are for?

and i think you guys are a little confused about MN summers. They are usually 50-90 degrees

Even more reason to not do it. Too risky.


Glow plugs are there to help ignite the fuel when the engine is first starting up, then they shut off. Starting on cold veg oil is a sure way to ruin glow plugs and other things (engine!)

well thats too bad. Maybe ill start small here and buy some cooking oil and make up a 1 gal test batch of B50 and leave it outside and see what happens

with biodiesel you can always use an anti-gel, or even straight kerosene if gelling is your concern.

Mixing cooking oil with diesel half and half does not make "B50 Biodiesel" it makes 50/50SVO....also bad for the car and will likely clog up your filters.

It's too cold there for a 1 tank, as I am sure everyone who didn't already razz you for not being happy with diesel has already posted.

It depends on your base stock as well as winter blending..

During the winter I would cut it with Kerosene

You're in Florida, winter up here is a LOT different than "winter" down there....

Kerosene will not help. It gets waaay too cold.

Hrmm not sure where your reading that. People were persuading me to go biodiesel, so i said i would make (read: titrate, cut with lye etc...) a batch of B50 and set it outside to see what happens in my climate. Now I'm beginning to wonder how much of this is actual advice or just ball busting by the diesel OGs...

I didn't realize you were going to actually brew up real biodiesel....

Anways, a fuel station here in MI told me that they do not even recommend using anything above commercial B20 biodiesel during the winter months because of the gelling risk....and I'd assume they know what they are talking about as they're one of the largest suppliers in the area.

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/alternative-fuels/105050-wvo-pumps-fuel-lines.html#5
Ill have to get in touch with this member.

And just so were clear, if i converted to SVO i wouldn't use it for DDing, it would be a trip-only sort of thing. I do a 500 mile round trip 2-3 times a month, so i can see it being beneficial.

You mistook my reply..

Generally you can cut it with kero.. worse comes to worse if your climate is too cold you have to run the proper D2 winterized fuel..

OMG.. run D2 in a diesel engine.. why yes.. It was DESIGNED FOR IT!

I know what you mean, and fully agree.

I bought a Mercedes 240D with the intention of doing WVO, but I've decided against doing anything of the sort due to the problems with engine damage, etc.

I'd recommend against not doing it at all....but, for such a cold place, at least a 2-tank, with a ton of pre-heaters.

I have a two tank system in Ontario in a truck and it works fine all year long. I started the winter with a piece of chloroplast in front of the radiator to speed warm-up. I found I didn't need it, oil was getting too hot. I plow snow with the truck. Warm-up time is not an issue, for me at least.

This is not the best place to ask for WVO advice as some people are just flat out opposed to it. (not sure why, guess they don't realize where their dollars go).

Ask here

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/frm/f/159605551

or here

http://www.frybrid.com/test.htm

Here is a guy in MN who is in the business. If I lived closer I would have gotten his help.

http://vegoilconversions.netfirms.com/

I love having to fill my truck up every 3 months. I really get a kick out of forgetting which side my gas tank is on when I have to fill-up.

Go for it

hahah **** man, 3 months?? How bigs your tank?

What I mean is I have to go to the gas station for diesel every three months and put twenty bucks of diesel in. I use my diesel tank for diesel (start-up), then switch to WVO. My WVO tank in in the truck bed and I fill it up from my garage whenever it needs it. So after three months, I forget which side the diesel tank is on.

http://vpizza.org/~jmeehan/photo/index.cgi?album=/00-vehicles/dodge-ram&mode=viewpicture&picture=IMG_0352.JPG

hahah thats great, i just always remember that mercedes tanks are on the right side and domestic cars are on the wrong side

hahah benz seats in the truck! Love it

yeah, use a 1 tank system
 

and burn homebrew biodiesel. No modifications to the car are necessary; no purging upon shutdown; just then with winterized diesel and kerosene in the winter; max of 10% kerosene.

And the most you have to filter your oil is with a window screen. It's the best way to preserve the longevity of your engine.

A 1 tank "conversion" in any climate at any time of the year is a horrible idea, it is harmful to your engine and it is just plain lazy!

You have two options:
1- Use a two-tank system.
2- Convert the illegal fuel into BioDiesel.

Why ruin a good car with grease? Its a filthy fad, its illegal, its harmful to your engine, it takes taxes away from maintaining the roads, it increases NOx emissions, it does nothing to alter global warming, it has no impact on our oil use and it destroys the value of an otherwise good car.

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. On one hand you say it takes away taxes from maintaining roads, but on the other hand you say that it has no impact on our oil use? If it is true that it takes away from taxes (which it probably does) then it has to have an impact on our oil use. Both cannot be true.

Oh, but it is!
The United States consumes 19.6 million barrels of oil per day. If we used every single drop of waste oil to brew Biodiesel it would barely even offset fraction of 1% of that amount.

Diesel has roughly 27.5cents per gallon in taxes. Thats $5.50 per 20 gallon tank. Let's go on the low end of the scale and say you fill up once every two weeks. Thats $143 in taxes the city will not see. Thats a pothole in your neighborhood that does not get fixed, two blocks that do not get their snow plowed, a storm drain that does not get cleaned out or a guard rail that takes longer to get fixed.

Multiply that by the dozen or so people on this forum alone that don't pay and it adds up quickly.

yeah the whole reason i want to convert is to be an ******* and drive for free/cheap. My friend cracked his oil pan of his e30 m3 on a manhole sticking 5 inches above the ground and destroyed his car. He made a claim with the city and he got nothing out of it. The way i look at it, the city owes him money. So i have no problem taking what isn't mine from the city.

And biodiesel is just as illegal as wvo...

and a ren and stimpy fan too! haha i had a ren and stimpy themed birthday party when i was 10

Only if the required taxes are not paid.

and if you do not file with the EPA.

well same with WVO, you can still offer to pay taxes

pay the taxes to your dept. of revenue.....WVO is an illegal fuel in the EPA's eyes - Lance has the document to prove it.

Listen Stimpy....what EZZ it with you man? This whole convesation is silly because it's too damn cold where you live anyway.

You're right there. And there are several government agencies that will tell you that WVO/SVO is perfectly legal IF you pay the road taxes.

It comes down to do what you want:
1) Road taxes don't actually go to roads. That was their original intention, but somewhere along the way the government decided to divert those funds to what THEY thought was the most important FIRST, and then secondarily to roads.
2) Some agencies will tell you it's illegal. Others will tell you it's legal. I say, believe the convenient one that tells you what you want to hear.
3) Even if the gov't finally united against SVO/WVO, people would still use it. If confronted by another civilian on the matter the simple answer would be "civil disobedience."

Any way you cut it, SVO/WVO use will be around until the biodiesel companies have bought up every last drop of waste vegetable oil.

It's illegal in every state.

I don't usually get into this argument - but where are getting this statement from? I'm not baiting you - just asking.

Here in Pa - diesel is taxed at 0.38 per gallon. It's called the liquid fuels tax. Counties and municipalities get this money, based on how many miles of road they maintain. I'm currently designing 4 bridges that are being funded almost entirely from liquid fuels funding. Every spring - townships bid on road materials and bulk supplies for repairing/overlaying roads - all with liquid fuels funding.

If you are going to USE any liquid fuels money - it will be reviewed and approved by the state and EVERYTHING must meet their standards or they pull the funding.

Granted, I'm sure not all 38 cents/per gallon makes it way into these projects.....but a large portion of it is. So at least here in my little universe, your statement is not valid.

Well, you all managed to ruin a perfectly good WVO thread.........yet again........with your ongoing petty arguments.