617..........WVO engine..........won't start
 

I replaced the engine on my 300sd. I replaced the injectors and lines, and now i cannot get it started, I did a valve adjustment, replaced the ffilters, The p.o. ran WVO and i want to run striaght diesel. I cannot get it to buck or even make a attempt to fire. I have cracked each line while cranking and rid most the bubbles. What could be the matter? IP timing off? i am drawn ablank!

HELP PLEASE

IAN WHITE

For the time it takes do a compression check. If you did not hear the motor run before you purchased it .

Just before going there though make sure the glow plugs are working properly and if so the engine should catch with wd 40 sprayed into the intake. What story were you given with the engine on purchase?

clean low milage (200K) car that ran wvo i bought the engine from a shop that used the tranny out of the car, it had been sideswiped.

on the fuel filter housing there is banjo bolt that faces the engine. Loosen it a turn or so then pump the hand primer until no bubbles come out of there. Tighten it up

Loosen all the injector lines again one turn, crank the engine WOT until absolutely no bubbles are present at the injector nut.

tighten up, fire up if everything is in good working order.

Ok, so as you crank you can see fuel moving in the clear prefilter? If so try loosening the injector lines at the injectors, crank, and verify fuel comes out there. If that works and the engine still won't fire your problem lies in the injectors.

-J

Have you seen it run, personally?

If not, then you have no idea what you've got and every single possibility that would prevent a start must be investigated:

1) excessively tight intake valves
2) no functional glow system
3) IP timing way off spec
4) WVO in IP and lines
5) low compression


With no history, it's a long and miserable task to determine why an engine that has previously run on WVO will not start............unless you get lucky.

Check glow plug system, i.p. timing, compression test. If all checks out, it could be time for a new i.p. Do you know the details of the WVO setup?

i would try the above then if anything a small shot of starting fluid should get it to go. don't go nuts with it but just enough to get it going. that might free up some crap that is in the line.

if the motor was running before and now isn't i can't see it being out of time.

Well if they were not lying about the circumstances of the cars demise. You should be able to get it up and running pretty easy. Unfortunatly in the car business some people are somewhat less than ethical. It's up to you to judge the seller or sellers.

Assuming they are ethical really check the glow circuit out first. Followed by getting the air out of the fuel system.

All things being equal with decent compression and a working glow system it should run a little by injecting some wd 40 directly into the intake. As I previously mentioned.

If it will not I would not fool around but really do the compression check. There is no harm either as it kind of lets you know the general condition of the engines compression anyways.

Check the main fuel filter and housing. The last car I worked on that had been run on WVO had unbelieveable nasty gunk in there, so much so that I just changed the whole setup from another car.

Also check the banjo bolt/pressure relief valve at the IP, it might be clogged/stuck.

Not to be the bearer of bad news, but I have seen WVO destroy the IP as well, you might need to swap your old one on. The friend I know that runs WVO gets about 30,000 miles per IP, doesn't sound economical to me, but hey--it's his car.

The friend I know that runs WVO gets about 30,000 miles per IP, doesn't sound economical to me, but hey--it's his car.[/QUOTE]

Thats why its so important to blend in 30% diesel fuel.Less strain on IP.Also speeds dewatering.

When I bought the engine I didnt hear it run but he said all is well. Bough from a reputable mechanics shop. JT20: There was a line loose that went to the top of the return filter housing, it went to the side that faced the side of the engine. There was no banjo bolt in it, so I replaced it with one from my old engine. I swaped my running injectors from my old engine in to this one that wont start. The nozzles are moarchs done by c sean watts less than 6 months ago so I'm not sure where the problem lyes. Couls someone post a thread showing how to check the ip timing? Before I swapped in this eng. I adjusted all the valves, and most were loose, but some were tight. They;re all good now though. What could this be, I dont want to keep sawing on it because i am a fraid it will take its toll on the starter. Suggestion?

yea all depending on how he filtered the veg and when he last drove it could play a big part in teh condition of the IP.

my buddy has over 50k miles on his IP w/ running veg, but we filter it down to 5 micron twice then put it in the car and heat it.

Start it and keep it running by random application of wd 40 into the intake through the centre of the air filter to save the starter. Takes a helper but thats usually not a big deal. If the fuel system is basically functional it will take over from the wd 40 soon enough.

If the shop stated they heard it running the timing has to be right or close enough. Or they are lying. Not many choices here.

i say get it going on some spray and go from there.

i normally wouldn't sanction the use of ether, but it doesn't look like you have much to loose. After, that is, you check the timing.

The only think to lose is the cylinder head gasket or a piston..........other than that...........I agree with you.

I have used propane to start.Propane torch with end removed,and tied into place.Where it sprays into intake for air filter.

oops

And I figure if it does blow a head gasket or crack a piston it doesn't really matter because the engine was beyond repair anyway.

woah cowboy, elaborate on this. What parts did you replace?

the clear line we are talking about goes from the back of the IP near the engine and has a banjo on each end. The bolt that goes into the filter housing is a typical, hollowed banjo bolt. The bolt that goes into the back of the IP is a banjo bolt with a check valve inside of it - pressure relief valve.

That must be there for proper timing.

you still haven't confirmed that you primed the system as previously described. It takes alot of engine turning @ WOT to clear the injector lines when they are empty - just the way it is. Don't fret for the starter, use in intervals of 10 seconds with cooling time in between.

Look in the "Resources" link at the top of the forum for a DIY on timing and post any questions in that thread.

Yes i replaced the banjo bolt in the back of the ip that is the pressure relief valve with a good replacement. As for priming I had diesel at the in jectors, and I took off the cigar hose and pumped that hand pump and got diesel out of it. I am confused though, when i pump the hand primer vigorously, i hear the sound of something going woosh woosh woosh on every pump stroke. I am getting fed up with this. Also I pulled the injectors out and cranked it over and it made a pretty good mist of diesel out the holes. Uhh!

Okay did a compression test and wow someone sold me a worn engine. Comp test #'s: cyl 1: 76 psi, cyl2: 49 psi, cyl 3: 111 psi, cyl 4: 145 psi, cyl 5: 151 psi. So now I am going back to talk to him about a refund. The funny thing is when i had the pickup and pan off there wasnt a spec of junk down there just look like a normal oil pan with 215k. I am pissed, I am thinking about ceasing to own my benz. Its turning into a money pit uhh!

those numbers are ridiculous. I would suspect stuck rings from sitting too long.

Try some solvent in the cylinder bores and let soak for a few days. Rotate 90* a few times, add solvent... etc..

Try a search for stuck rings, better advice from more knowledgeable members.

good luck on the refund.

and, perhaps, corroded cylinder walls??

Well jt, wheni pulled the injectors they had no guk on them indicative of cyl wall corosion. when I had the pan off I looked at the bore, which looked perfect. How can you unstick these rings? And why would they be stuck in the sprung in position even if the engine turns over fine ( albeit a little slow but never the less). What am I missing?

IW

Freeing stuck rings in a 617???
 

Engine turns over fine but im thinking It has stuck rings beacuse the low low low compression numbers and also the fact that the mechanic I bought it from said it had sat a year or more, Compression numbers are:cyl 1: 76 psi, cyl2: 49 psi, cyl 3: 111 psi, cyl 4: 145 psi, cyl 5: 151 psi


ANY help is appreciated!

IW

It could be so. I don't see how the numbers could be so low from normal wear. I would remove the injectors or glow plugs and put in a few teaspoons of Marvel Mystery oil and let it sit for a week at least and then try towing it to start it. Let it set for a month if you have the patience.

Good luck.

Be sure to turn it over with the injectors out to get the liquid out of the cylinders first.

(with those low figures you may need to add mmo every day as it may run right past the rings).

Could be valve sealing issues too....or both.

Hi
If an engine is badly overheated, the piston rings can become weak (soft)and result in low compression numbers.
Joseph

Ian,

Are you confident in your test setup? All 5 of those readings are really, really low.

Could you verify your compression tester somehow on another vehicle (preferably another 617)?

dd

Ouch, fixing low compression in all cylinders, I believe, requires tearing down the engine. Seeing as you just bought the engine, the only reason to fix it is if you're looking for a hobby. See if you can get a refund.

see previous post

its my understanding that two things may happen which could be identified as stuck rings.

-cylinder walls wear with use and become slightly tapered. When a piston is left unlubricated for a long period of time in one position, the ring may stick in the piston's grooves and not expand as it reaches the wider upper section of the cylinder bore.

-a ring can stick in the piston's grooves by being restricted from rotating / twisting due to build-up. See how the rings in the pictures have a face that only contacts the cylinder wall completely if the piston is traveling in a certain direction?


It is quite easy to imagine that with the use of WVO, that many of the piston grooves are filed with crud from the contaminating remains of incomplete combustion.


http://www.tpr.co.jp/tp_e/products/pistonring/img/9.jpghttp://www.tpr.co.jp/tp_e/products/p...ing/img/10.jpg

IMO "clean low mileage" and "ran wvo" are contradictory statements. ;) Every WVO engine that I've taken apart has been extremely gunked up and nasty inside. And they usually stink like death and rotting grease, the smell is horrible. Not to mention the wiring and hoses under the hood that are all hacked up from the ghetto installation job. I refuse to work on WVO cars now, just turn them away, go somewhere else.

Do you get fuel coming out if you crack the injector lines open a bit? Best of luck I hope you get it sorted out.

A teaspoon of brake fluid will also unstick rings. Leave it in for atleast over night, but a week would be better. I've used this trick a number of times. I just used it this spring and brought a cylinder back from 85psi to over 300. So it works. Make sure you crank the engine over with all the injectors out to blow out the fluid that may still be in the cylinder before you do another compression test.

Also adjust the valves, tight valve clearences cause low compression.

The engine just sitting a year or two would not normally do this in my opinion. I have let 616 and 617 engines sit for years with no difficulty.
Now if excess dampness has caused the piston grooves or rings to oxidise is another story.

I have only converted one engine back from vegatable oil that sat around for a couple of years unused. So my experience is almost zero. No difficulties were experienced in my case.

The bore fit is usually close enough on a diesel to retain a film of oil somewhat. This was the only reason I ever was able to come up with at least. Of why a gas engine sitting will tend to seize and an average diesel much less so.

First as mentioned verify the compression gauge is working properly. If the rings are gummed up that bad with waste vegatable oil the engine did not run prior to being pulled in my opinion. I just see no way that senario was possible. Unless the gum already present on the rings solidified with time sitting perhaps.

The temper removed from the compression rings on these particular engines could happen but the engine would have to be driven a fair distance with the coolant blown out I would think. It would never restart after that type of event. The compression would be far too low to start on if as indicated.

Order of attack if I was involved personally.
#1 check the cam to harmonic balancer marks. I might also remove the cam bolt and visually have a look at the key and keyways. Highly unlikely but again something I might look at.

#2 verify the compression gauge. This is probably the most important. And should be the first step.

#3 only if the above items check out first start a soak. Plug the block heater in if the engine has one and do not spare the soak.

#4 You did not observe by any chance mist being blown out the intake at any point? This is a really long shot as well. Not to ask it would be an error though.

#5 I have seem pictures of cylinder bores on engines burning wvo that have very badly scored walls yet never thought about the actual cause. The effect seems to not hit all cylinders equally. That pressure gauge still has to be a prime suspect.

#6 try to locate the last owner of the engine before the garage got it. That individual may have some useful information.

Try filling the cylinders with Marvel Mystery Oil, let them soak for a couple days, and recheck compression. It may take several tries to get them all freed up. Good Luck.

I have used the Mervel M. Oil on my Volvo and it worked. But I used more thatn a teaspoon.
The thing about the Marvel M. Oil is that you can run the Engine afterwards with no ill effects. I my case I moved the Car from my front yead to the back so I could change do the Oil Change in my drive way.
If I had used Brake Fluid I would have been stuck Jacking my Car up in the dirt.
Here is recent success story:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/258757-compression-test-how-low-low.html?highlight=Marvel

Some of the valves were tight and some were loose theyre al at spec now. I have the marvel oil and will try it out. The tester is a matco and a snapon. I used to different gauges with the same results.

Well this sounds like about the ultimate possible test of the marvel mystery oil so far. Do not be in too much of a hurry as the solvent takes it's time. Sorry it turned out to be compression related.

Surprised the numbers are that low across the board, its almost impossible.

Look up Auto Rx,works very well.:DIve used it 4 of my past cars and no problems,cleans very slowly.I like to go on bobtheoilguy,for more info on MMO/Auto Rx/Seafoam/berrymans b12/ and so @ so.

You have gotten the correct recipe for the attempt at unsticking the rings if that's the problem. I would use MMO, but I've never tried brake fluid. I don't know why or how it would work, but don't argue with success.

The main reason that I chimed in was to make SURE that you are well aware of the consequences of turning over the engine without the glow plugs BEFORE putting them back in. If you forget and put them in before blowing as much fluid out of the cylinders as possible, you will bend, break or crack something.

Just trying to make sure that you know this.

Good luck with it.

It has be 30 years or so but I have seen Brake Fluid damage a paint on a Car when left over night. I believe there is something in it that could eat up Carbon.
I might try soaking one of the stock Injector Nozzles that I have that has carbon plugging up the central Pintel Hole and the cross drilled hole and see if it loosens it; and if Pop-testing afterwards will clear the carbon out.

Your low compression could also be caused by incorrect valve adjustment. Did you follow correct procedure when doing this?

Use 2 gallons type F ATF to 18gals. fuel.Find hills mountains and drive hard for 200 miles.After valve adjustment.

The engin has too low comprression to even pop, so your remedy is out of the question, for now :P.

I pulled the injectors and inserted the mmo through that hole acessing the cyl, and when i turn it over in a week or so, I will do it by hand.

I think that would require an engine that will run to start with....;)

yessir I did. I am letting the marvel oil sit for a while. Im pretty nervous.

I had a car that sat for god knows how long and the body was ment but the motor wouldnt run. Guy said it had no compression and thats why the people donated it.

I got my hands on it and 3 hours later drove it home. The first thing i did was a compression test and it read 0psi on ALL cycliders. I put some engine restore ( the silver can with the blue gunk) in it and turned it over while bleeding the injector lines. I went through 3 batteries while taking break as not to burn up the starter and the ol girl started up. My buddy has the car now and it alwasy starts even when cold yet has a ton and i mean ton of blow by and 350k on it yet still has enough power to be worth driving. Once you hit 50 it takes off like any other turbo 300D.