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Alternative to MIG Welding (?)
I just bought a product that may be of interest to those of you (us) with a need to fix floorboards or do some other metal repair. It is called FUSOR 108B Metal Panel Bonding Adhesive that is used in the "trade" to attach body panels such as rear quarters, doorskins etc. I paid about $25 for a 7.6 oz two-part tube of the stuff and I experimented with an irregularly shaped patch of new steel for the floor of my 240D ( corner where the rocker and firewall meet under the clutch pedal).
This stuff meets GM and DaimlerChrysler specs for mig welding and weld bonding - has a lap shear strength of 2250 psi when used on steel. It mixes much like thin Bondo and smells not unlike the stuff dentists use when setting crowns. In 90+ degree heat it sets up in about 10 minutes but is supposed to allow 40-50 minutes work time at 70 degrees. I don't think I could have patched that inacessable corner nearly as well with a MIG. Another advantage is that is is not supposed to promote corrosion at the bond. It stayed put today on the ride to work ( I didn't use any rivets or screws) If it lasts I may be tempted to slap a different quarter panel on the car later this year. Additional info is at www.fusor.com. There are probably similar products out there made by 3M etc. Rick
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80 300SD (129k mi) 82 240D stick (193k mi)77 240D auto - stick to be (153k mi) 85 380SL (145k mi) 89 BMW 535i 82 Diesel Rabbit Pickup (374k mi) 91 Jetta IDI Diesel (155k mi) 81 VW Rabbit Convertible Diesel 70 Triumph Spitfire Mk III (63kmi)66 Triumph TR4a IRS (90k mi)67 Ford F-100 (??) |
#2
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Chemical bonding of metal was required in the Lockheed L1011 aircraft (and probably everything newer than that), and there is no reason to assume it won't work on auto steel.
My only concern would be fill strength -- is the stuff as hard and strong as it needs to be if there is a large, irregular gap rather than just a thin space between the sheets. Peter
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1972 220D ?? miles 1988 300E 200,012 1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles 1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000 1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs! |
#3
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Peter-
Good point. I have several spots on this patch that are about 1/4" thick. Of course, this isn't a structural application so I would expect it to hold reasonably well . The product instructions want you to apply a 3/8" think bead of the material. Rick
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80 300SD (129k mi) 82 240D stick (193k mi)77 240D auto - stick to be (153k mi) 85 380SL (145k mi) 89 BMW 535i 82 Diesel Rabbit Pickup (374k mi) 91 Jetta IDI Diesel (155k mi) 81 VW Rabbit Convertible Diesel 70 Triumph Spitfire Mk III (63kmi)66 Triumph TR4a IRS (90k mi)67 Ford F-100 (??) |
#4
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I'm posting a new thread in the detailing section, regarding 3 available types of this no-weld adhesive.
No weld panel adhesives - discussion and ?? I'd be very interested in the results of your repairs 1 year later?
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1986 560SL 2002 Toyota Camry 1993 Lexus Last edited by donbryce; 09-09-2004 at 08:44 AM. Reason: Add link to another thread |
#5
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Quote:
The "weld bonding" referred to above is a combintaion technique using resistance welding (melts the parent metal) with adhesive bonding in between the welds. Even the fusor site has a technique page describing it. This stuff may well be a very good adhesive and hold patch panels in place perfectly well, but in no way is it "welding". Bonding,
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Norm in NJ Next oil change at 230,000miles |
#6
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If you can say MIG you can learn to MIG weld in about 20 minutes. MIG equipment is cheap. Why would you want an alternative?
If you are contemplating rust repairs, I am against it, buy a car with no rust. |
#7
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Quote:
Also, if the repair is adjacent to gas lines, interior cloth, undercoat, etc., basically, in areas where fire is a real danger from the heat and sparks from mig welding, or in places that it's a real pain to weld, this type of product is a great alternative.
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1986 560SL 2002 Toyota Camry 1993 Lexus |
#8
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I think you are talking about an alternative to MarineTex and not an alternative to MIG welding. I can see the value in high tech adhesives, the different technologies have their respective places.
Grumman light aircraft also had bonded skin, makes a more aerodynamically clean surface than rivets. Some plastic body panels on cars are glued on too. The Fiero was one example and I think Saturn is another. MIG welding is cheaper than most people believe, you can get a small flux core setup for $100 or so. It is not the answer to all of your welding needs but is really pretty versatile with a little practice and study. Weld strength with a MIG welder varies but can be as high as 80,000 psi or higher. |
#9
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I think that's the same stuff that's recommended to repair the cracks in front of the doors (kind of behind the fenders) on the early 90's Dodge trucks.... I think rivets are also used there because it's a high stress area on those trucks (bad design). Anyway, back to the point of my story, it's supposed to be really good stuff.
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1985 300D Turbo ~225k 2000 F350 (Powerstroke) 4X4, SWB, CC, SRW, 6spd ~148k 1999 International 4900, DT466e (250hp/660 ft/lbs), Allison MD3060 ~73k |
#10
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donbryce-
The patch on the floor is holding just fine. I did more experimentation a few weeks later. I had a smallish hole starting at the bottom corner of the right rear quarterpanel. A hole about the size of a silver dollar. I constructed a patch using three or four small pieces to mimic the car's construction. One flat below, one inside the wheel well at the back, one bent and curving along the outside fender and one that curves around like the lip of the rear fender. Not a big patch but a complex one . I glued it all together and added just a touch of kitty hair. And it has held just fine for a year. No screws or rivets. I haven't gotten around to the big quarterpanel patch but I see no reason not to do it with this stuff ( I will add a few sheet metal screws, though) Rick
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80 300SD (129k mi) 82 240D stick (193k mi)77 240D auto - stick to be (153k mi) 85 380SL (145k mi) 89 BMW 535i 82 Diesel Rabbit Pickup (374k mi) 91 Jetta IDI Diesel (155k mi) 81 VW Rabbit Convertible Diesel 70 Triumph Spitfire Mk III (63kmi)66 Triumph TR4a IRS (90k mi)67 Ford F-100 (??) |
#11
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Mig welders are cheap? going to get one in a couple of weeks 135 Lincoln out the door with full tank but no wire is over seven hundred dollars.The small cheapo flux core wire welders are near worthless..........
William Rogers............. |
#12
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I've been migging in my home shop for over 20 years. My welder was $350.00 CDN, bought as a sale promo item locally, but is available in the U.S. from Kooltools (an excellent co., sent me a replacement motor once) http://www.kooltools.com/welding/110mig_weld.html ,and I got a tank at an auction for $50.00, which has long since been traded for a filled tank at the local exchange-empty-take-full depot. Mig gas, an argon/co2 mix I believe, runs about $40.00 plus tax for a B size tank. A large spool of .035" wire is around $35.00 CDN. I consider this setup by far the cheapest I could ever get in this area, for a proper wire fed gas mig welder.
Quote:
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1986 560SL 2002 Toyota Camry 1993 Lexus |
#13
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Quote:
On a unibody car the strength, the structure of the car is in the body panels. A rusty car can be demolished in a relatively minor crash and not protect its occupants as it was designed to do. Floorpans are a major structural component in a unibody car and repair by any means other than welding is inadequate. Fastening metal to metal is best done by welding. Rust in cars fits the tip of the iceberg model. You patch the rust you can see but the rust you can't see can get you killed in an accident. I am sure you are touting a good product and it has its applications, but keep it in its place. Also be aware that pop rivets are not structural fasteners. |
#14
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Twitchkitty
I agree that MIG welding is the thing for structural repairs. The hole I patched in my floor is directly under my clutch pedal ( I think caused by the PO letting brake fluid get down there)about the size of a spread hand. That's all the rust there is. Its a triangular area bounded by the rocker panel assy and the "frame" member inboard about 6". For something like this, I'll bet structral integrity is not compromised. I'm just offering this as an alternative. I have a MIG welder myself but this is just too easy for nits like this. For sheet metal like the quarter panel patch it simply couldn't be done with a MIG. And I think there will be less chance of corrosion. Rick
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80 300SD (129k mi) 82 240D stick (193k mi)77 240D auto - stick to be (153k mi) 85 380SL (145k mi) 89 BMW 535i 82 Diesel Rabbit Pickup (374k mi) 91 Jetta IDI Diesel (155k mi) 81 VW Rabbit Convertible Diesel 70 Triumph Spitfire Mk III (63kmi)66 Triumph TR4a IRS (90k mi)67 Ford F-100 (??) |
#15
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I think harborfreight.com sells the cheap flux cored for around $130 or something like that. I have a Hobart 125 MIG welder that I've been pretty happy with, cost a little under $500 with tank and wire. Hobart is an off branch of Miller, it actually uses a Miller gun on it.
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Jeff M. Mercedes W123 DIY pages are now located here. 1983 / 1984 300D Sold 2000 CLK430 Cabriolet ~58k Sold 2005 Avalanche 4x4 ~66k |
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