Will a Diesel survive the winter with out..
 

Hi fellas,
Quick question, I have been eyeing this 87 300td and i really want to buy it but the problem is I dont have a garage because i only live in an apartment. Lets say that the 300td is in mechanically perfect condition, would it start in the winter eventhough it doesnt have a block heater? (i cant ran an extention cord accross the street :rolleyes: ) btw i live in wisconsin

thanks in advance!

Short answer:

If it's in mechanically perfect condition, it does not need a block heater.

Longer answer: :D

Ask the owner how it's been to start.

See if you can show up when it's really cold and start it from cold. Don't let the owner 'warm it up' for you, watch it from dead cold.

With a good battery, a good starter, all 6 glow plugs operational and good compression, it should start without block heater down to about 0 degrees or so. It may fuss, grumble, shake and rattle for the first minute as it warms up a bit.

Added thoughts:

Synthetic oil can do a lot to help cold weather starting of any vehicle.

Good luck.

Best Regards,
Jim

Show up on the coldest day you can and see if she starts. Open the hood first and feel around to see if the seller has warmed her up prior to your arrival. Be sure the engine/exhaust/radiator/etc... is COLD to the touch beforehand. Someone will correct me if I am mistaken, but I think the biggest factor in cold weather starting is compression. Unless you have a tester, the cold-starting-trial method is the only reasonable way to measure how she'll do on a cold winter morning.

Good luck!

Well these two folks have already stated everything I was going to mention. The cold start test is the best measure of compression without actually paying for a compression test. The 300D that I saw for sale which Wally (username: Hector111 ) has already purchased cranked up on Monday morning at 10:30am at 20F after sitting outside in very low winter temperatures for 72 hours. That was a good sign of excellent compression. I've been told that a diesel engine with good compression should be able to start without usage of a block heater down to about -20F.

A smart thing to do is carry a battery booster in your trunk. It gives you extra power for that first start of the day. I live in SE Wisconsin and ysterday morning was tough. I plugged it in last night and this morning was fine.
If you must use ethyr DO NOT remove air cleaner and spray it down the air intake. Instead a VERT SHORT shot up the plastic hose is it. The ethyr will slowly go through the air filter and help it start. Doing this daily is not acceptable. An emergency start to avoid a tow is more like it.

Braver,

And I've been told the Brooklyn Bridge is for sale.

P E H

z3ds,

Without a block heater, there are cold mornings when you will not be able to get the Diesel started. Heck, in Wisconson in the winter, sometimes gasoline engines don't start. And we know they are easier to start than Diesel engines when cold.

P E H

Thanks alot Jim H, cscmc1, braverichard, and wodnek for the quick helpful responses and tips!

I'll do a surprise visit and start the 300td in the cold. Hopefully it has good compression and would start. I really want to buy this car. :)

Some are better than others. After I replaced the starter in my old '75 300D, it would start up without a block heater down to about -20 deg F.

My 240D started without a block heater last winter to about -5 deg F.

My current 300SD can't start below freezing without help.

Help!

All this leads me to the question: what causes compression to reduce and eventually disappear (rendering the engine dead)? Expansion and contraction of the combustion chamber walls through the years? Can anyone here clearly explain?

Wear and tear. Cylinder walls get out of shape or the cross hatching gets rubbed off for whatever reason. Leaky head gasket or valves.

braver,

Its mostly wear on the piston rings is that causes engines to lose compression. We all know that the rings wear on the surface touching the cylinder walls but they also wear on the surfaces that touch the ring groves and the ring groves also wear so there is a larger path for air to leak past the rings.

This all contributes to leakage which reduces the compression. Thus there is lower pressure and since temperature in the cylinder is proportional to pressure, the temperataure is lower which leads to harder starting.

P E H

time to jump in with a favourite cold start technique.when all else fails and you dont have block heater,electric outlet or extension cord long enough.try filling a roasting pan with charcoal briquettes.get it goin with barbque starter.once the coals are glowin slip it under the engine.wait 15 mins boomba.

I've found that once its down around 15 degrees, it gets challenging, and you don't have too many cracks at the bat before your battery is dead. If you buy this car, don't play games, immediately replace all glowplugs, install a new battery and change the oil to synthetic. On one hand you can say the car has been up there in Wisconsin all this time, so it probably still does run o.k. in the winter, on the other hand, you could say that THIS winter (after you buy it), will be when it starts to act up. If you want to enjoy your car, help it out and prepare it for winter. It should start if it has been well cared for. Lastly, don't mess around with any starting fluids, they are seriously dangerous on diesel engines that use glowplugs.

GregS
'84 300D (sold) started at 15 degrees
'85 VW Jetta diesel (sold) started at 0 degrees

Michael,
Your suggestion for BBQing the engine reminds me how mechanics used to start Big dozers, and scrapers. These were fairly old units with no electric strater--they used a small (recoil started) gas engine ( pony motor) as a starter. On cold mornings, after they finally got the pony motor running, they'd engage it and it would instantly die. All that cold, thick oil just didn't want to move. Their solution was to take a large pan they used for draining the oil for this equipment--probably 10 gallon capacity--and put a gallon or so of diesel in it and set the pan on fire. Then they'd slide it under the oil pan of whatever they were trying to start and go have another cup of coofee. After maybe a half hour, they'd come back outside and restart the pony motor and then the big diesel. It usually worked!

You will find that it makes a huge difference to use synthetic oil. Expensive, but worth it if you have to walk instead of drive. If you know it will be really cold, a quart or two of 0w30 could make the difference between starting and not.
Flame suit on. . ., fire away.

A portable jump starter battery kit is a good idea - keep it inside at your place so it is warm and can give you ample power if it is cold enough to need it. When I had a diesel rabbit, I used to lug the battery inside on cold nights. But on an '87 benz, removing the battery is going to goof up the radio, and I don't know how easy it is to get it out either.

It was 10F outside this morning and mine started just fine. Good battery, possibly one bad glow plug. A little shaking for the first minute, but she fired right up. She has good compression though, she always fires on the first revolution after the glow plug cycle.

DS
87 300D

Don't do it..
 

I lived in Rockford IL just south of you and a car without some type of block heater during the extreme cold weather days (-65 wind chill) would not start..including my Friends 240D. Once He left it running for 5 days....

I was going to reccomend the BBQ technique, I have used it more than once, but I think that an '87 is going to have that big ol cover on the bottom of the engine to catch oil drips. If the cover is not there, I endorse it wholeheartedly, though it does take some time.

GOOD advice... get the highest (amps) rated booster you can (not the $39 jobs you see routinely at WalMart) and keep it warm (i.e. don't leave it in the trunk overnight). I'd keep it right on the pass. floor, in fact! Nice & warm...

Chris

??? Did I miss something ???

Someone earlier said a mechanically solid MB diesel should start w/o a block heater down to -20 degrees. I think this was a "yeah, sure" comment.

just an added safety precaution.its only common sense and good safety practice to keep a fire extinguisher handy in the garage or nearby if your trying the bbq method.

-12 Celsius overnight and -10 when I left this morning... glowed for about 20 seconds and then it fired up right away. No roughness at all except the first couple seconds. I am using Mobil 1 15W50 synthetic.

Well then if you're right, that "yeah sure" comment is just that, "yeah sure." I once met an '85 300SD owner at the local M-B service shop and he said his car had started many times as low as -20F without the block heater. When he said it I showed signs of disbelief and he told me that he wasn't lying or exaggerating, that he had accurately checked the temperature before he did it. He said he was testing to see how low it can get before it wouldn't start without being plugged in overnight. That was the lowest temperature he got to test it at ... well, that's the lowest it ever gets around here period! I believe the guy fully and you know what, if any of you here don't believe me, just wait till the temperatures start getting really low here and I'll test to see how the lowest temperature at which my car can start without having been plugged in overnight. :D

This is it, when it is -20° and it doesn't start you don't have to wonder why.

Yep, I know for a fact my car will not start at -20F without the block heater. But down to 0F I don't have many problems, just a long glow time. That's why I carry a long extension cord with me to work. And the engine has only 150k miles -- it burns a quart every 1000 mile or so.

*I* didn't say that... I was just clarifying the joke... It would be great to have a diesel who'd start in -20degree weather! Mine never saw lower than the single digits, and even then I never needed to start them at the time.

The only time I've had problems starting gassers in the cold was when there was another problem, bad starter, battery or something else. And believe me if your battery or starter are questionable, then you'll know it at zero degrees F. As for the other diesels in my life, tractors and semis, they'll never start without being plugged in for at least a couple of hours. The MB is a different breed though, so there is hope if it's well maintained.

DS
87 300D

Are there no outlets nearby at all? Is there another building nearby that would let you plug in, especially with a timer, for a small fee?

Maybe this is stupid but.... If you have one of the high quality, high capicity jump start things could you plug in an inverter and plug the block heater into that? Would the draw be too ridiculous? I normally use my block heater at 10F primarily to avoid burning out the starter. Even the block heater is only used from 5:15 to 7:00 in the morning and the cars always start easily. I am thinking that using the jumpstarter to warm the block heater might be more useful. Never tried it though. If you had long enough to drive, just plug the jump starter into the lighter to re-charge on the way to work or where ever.

Plug it in
 

why don't you just use the block heater for 3 to 5 hours and you should not have any problems, it does not cost that much...good luck!

There are some things people overlook when making sure their diesel is ready for winter. Battery cables can deteriorate internally, underneath the sheathing and provide significant resistance to the current flow. Carefully inspect them. I don't know if a larger capacity battery is available for MB's but extra CCA's will certainly help. It will also allow extra glowplug cycles and more cranking. Starter condition. Even with good cables and a big battery if the starter is old and worn out it won't spin the engine fast enough to start. Fully functioning glowplugs. Either pull them and test them to make sure they glow or connect an ammeter to each one individually to make sure they pull at least 7-9amps. If not replace. Synthetic oil. This is often overlooked due to cost. Oil is cheap compared to walking or calling the towtruck for a jump. It makes a huge difference. Its not an MB but the worktruck will start down to -15* I credit this to good glowplugs, oversized battery cables made from 00 gauge welding cable and two monster Optima batteries. If you have enough battery and can spin the engine fast enough it will start. RT

If the 603 is in good shape it I will say should start to 0f without a block heater. I started mine last year when I first looked at it at 8, not to mention it had been sitting for a week under 6in of snow. Considering the glow plugs and battary were weak and the general conditon of the engine that pretty much sold me on the engine. So far this year I have done 25f without the block heater and no problem at all. My engine has zero blow-by and this year knock on wood is about as perfect as can be expected. The timing chain is probably a few degrees out I need to check that.

If it's -20° out, I'm not worried about the diesel start. Heck, I don't even start at that temp. :D

My mind can't even fathom temperatures below zero. That is why we put up with 110 degree summers! :sun_smile

Very true. In fact, the dealer I purchased my car from, being more knowledgeable about diesels than the average nut out there, replaced the battery that was in the car when he got it from the original owner with a brand new Interstate battery with 1300 CCA!! :eek: I was amazed by seeing such a huge, powerful battery. He said that it was essential to have one so that even in the coldest temperatures, numerous glow plugs cycles can be done with enough power left to turn that huge starter. At the time I purchased the car I didn't quite understand him well. Now I do. Additionally, I have a friend who owns a 1981 Toyota Diesel Pickup Truck and he has two batteries in it, each with 1200 CCA. Even with poor glow plugs, he said that he just cycles them four or five times and his car starts up no matter what the temperature is -- without having been plugged in. In fact, he doesn't even have a block heater in it! :eek:

Thats an interesting idea...........great for people in the great white north who park in the open in bitter cold weather with no place to plug in.....

My truck has 2 Optima red top batteries with 1,000 CCA each.....starts right up in the coldest weather we get around here......which admittedly IS above zero Farenheit. Without a block heater.....(cord is shorting out I think....)

While it can get really cold here, we typically rarely experience sub zero farenheit temperatures. That said, any diesel can survive here without ever being plugged in... a mechanically sound diesel that is. I find it funny now that when I purchased my 300SD anyone and everyone was telling me how impossible it would be to start it without a block heater. So far I've done it at 4 F... still waiting for the lower temperatures to arrive!

Hairdryer.
 

I had a friend that lived in North Dakota and he had a 123 300D. On days when he would forget to plug it in he would remove the air filter cover and insert an old hair dryer. Then he would have his coffee and by the time he was finished the engine and compartment were warm enough to start.
Having owned several GM Oldsmobile Diesels (which I never had trouble with any of them, by the way!) I would never do this - too much of a chance of FOD!

Hey, I think that using a block heater is a good idea, when you can. Engine starts easier, less abuse of the components, and cabin heat quicker too. And the Honda generator idea is great too. They have a new one that is the size of a small tool box, 1000watts and very light. Hooking that up and running the block heater for a couple of hours should use very little fuel too. My only concern would be it growing legs and walking (skating) off on its own. The ultimate solution for subzero starting without a plug is this: http://www.lubricationspecialistllc.com/product_info.php?products_id=120 RT

find a way to mount a heavy chain to it.......permanently, and padlock it to the hold-down loop all cars have.....easy to remove when you are done, adn makes it hard for someone to just carry off easily.

And be sure to remove the plastic underbelly tray!

Let's hear from the cold country
 

Registering 2 degrees F here in Western Chicago Burbs this moring with 15-20mph wind. The 240 started on two glow cycles and a press on the foot feed. I changed to the Rotella syth before winter and the oil pressure sprang to 3 as fast as normal. Anyone else out in cold country started yet this morning? :santa2:

It is supposed to be pretty close to 0 around here tomarrow, to bad my SDL isn't running at the moment.

Someone should start a "who can start at the lowest temp, without a heater" it could be fun. :D

Im in at 17 right now. Supposed to be 12 tonight.

I think with very cold temps, starting without a block heater should only be done out of necessity, not normally. It's adds undue wear and tear to your engine.

That's my basic philosophy. Also, if it's that cold out, there's likely ice. If there's ice, there's likely road salt. I don't seek road salt adventures anymore than I'd put on a pair of galoshes and splash around in puddles of hydrochloric acid. Our salters are particularly bad in this area ... it seems they just drive around occasionally throwing a few shovels of salt in the middle of an intersection, where it sits in a large mound until it gets "spread out" by all the poor cars running through it. But I digress.

My 87 300D has thus far been very good about starting without any assistance from block heaters etc. (knock on wood). It's unusual for temperatures here to dip below 0, but they do now and then. If I can borrow a parent's car or get by without taking mine out I do (much as it pains me ...). But I if I have to take it out, it starts pretty much like it does any day and I give it ample time to warm up before I move it.

It's way ahead of what I grew up with, which was a 1987 GMC Suburban, diesel. I can remember every day going to school in the winter time waiting for that hulk to start. My mom was always so boastful about having four-wheel drive and being able to get up all the backroad hills (I live in a valley) ... but it always seemed kind of funny to me, because it never started when the weather called for four wheels!

This morning it was 6 degrees outside when I went out to start my SD, let it glow about 20 seconds, then turned the key....8 cranks later it was running fine. :D It sat all night (about 14 hours or so) in the street with -10 windchill blowing over it, it was FROZEN. 6 degrees is nothing, I've gotten mine going in -7 last january....BEFORE my valve adjustment and new timing chain were done....it did take about 20-25 cranks to do it, but it still did...with no block heater, plus I had old glow plugs, and my rack damper pin was still in allll the way (super tight)....mine has yet to ever not start on me.