617 IP Full Load Stop Adjustment Procedure
 

Yes...yes it is true...

I put it up on a website so that it can be referenced and I can control the documents, etc.

Here is the main page with other info you might find interesting. Benz

Thanks!

Awesome job Brandon...and yes that was totally different that I believed the right one was.

You earned a place on the Mercedesshop Hall of fame for that one.

MMMMMMM.....................Chocolate Cake!! :)

Good job!

Danny

Very nice work! Thanks for sharing.

Excellent Brandon!
How about a brief comment on the before and after...

Looks like you gave up smoking for amateur radio. Where's the ant for that Icom? I didn't see it.

73s,

Dan N5MRG

Midrange and top end power has picked up a bit and the off idle takeoff is a bit quicker. The off idle quickness could however be related to the combined work I was doing on the ALDA so I wasn't too specific about the "seat of the pants" effects. The idle speed was NOT affected by this adjustment.
After I get it all adjusted, etc. I will report back.

I am only 18 and am not such a fan of cig. smoke/smoking (PO was however:)). Diesel on the other hand!
The antenna is on the roof here
I took the icom out and put a kenwood in and remote mounted the faceplate. I don't have any pictures currently but I will snag one and put it on the appropriate thread

ooooo :eek: One the way to 325tq... :)

That cake made the entire process 10 times easier...not to mention the girl feeding it to me and running the camera. :D

Awesome job!! You may want to try lower boost pressure to see if EGT's come down a little. I just did this on my 603 and the initial results indicate 50-100F lower peak EGT's, when dropping from 15psi down to 12psi. There's no apparent loss in power. I'll be verifying all this at the dragstrip Friday.

When you turn up the full load, this will also increase the fuel delivery off-idle. That means you may need to turn the ALDA "down", as in leaner, to compensate. Casey had to do this on his 603 to reduce smoking off-idle, but that was on a maxed-out pump. For a slight increase in full load, you may not need to fiddle with the ALDA. I'll be trying a half-turn on my 603 soon... within a month, I hope. I'll be watching EGT's closely and will return to the dragstrip to verify power gains.

:D

Perhaps I should get more serious about an IC now since we have the "final" word on the full load stop.

I still haven't figured out a way to put an intercooler on my W116 without major reengineering of the cooling system.

I haven't looked close at a 116, do you have any space in front of the AC condensor between there and the front bumper?

Chrome Eurobumpers...Its Not like the W126. And less space than a W123...

And no it won't fit behing the black plastic grill under the bumper...there is sructural stuff behind that.

http://brandon.importtransmissionexc...d/DCP00305.JPG

Hi Brandon,
You may well be right about the top screw having some effect on fuel delivery, but I've had a local bosch tech identify a different adjustment for full load fuel quantity. I'm sure you will keep us posted. why don't you see if you can turn it up enough to really lay down some black smoke and then back it off til your happy with your EGT. I've made the adjustment the local tech identified and it definitely increased the fuel. I had to crank back down my ALDA to limit off idle smoke. In the two days I had to test the car I shaved four seconds off 0 to 60, before my son flipped the car and wrapped it around a tree. By the way the picture on your web page with the pump sitting on a bench is from my earlier experiments. I wish I still had an expendable car to play with. I think it is great you're documenting your efforts so well.

OK now that Bob has come forward the adjustment I made he is speaking of is the large one to the right of the idle fuel adjustment....my car has half the miles on it his did which could explain why mine is overfueling at half the optimum adjsutment for his.

This is the one that is causing me problems with idle speed and its reluctance to return to idle.....the one that at three turns out had it idling at 3,400 rpm and at 1.5 turns out had it idling at 900 but slow to return to that speed. And this being still too far out to suit me even though the EGT is still just in spec...there is no doubt this adjsutment does increase the fuel delivery also, Brian Carlton has followed my car during a full throttle pullaway from an intersection.

Becasue we have been told by some that adjsutments on this pump are inter related with others I am wondering if one does so with a low end bias and the other with a high end bias. It still would be nice to get the word of an Bosche tech to verify this.

I will be pulling my IP again to zero out this adjustment back to original spec...and try Brandons...to see if I have less driveability issues with that adjustment. But that may be a couple days before I can do it.

Yeah I found this interesting as well becuase I saw it on your previous posts. What screw was identified as the correct one? Could it have been something else that was adjusted and then the pump was adjusted around it? I know that this one is giving good results so far and I am adjusting it a turn at a time and going to see if I can lay down some inky black stuff.

Bravo! :beerchug:
You have saved many people alot of hair loss. :D

What about this procedure is different on a 603 Dave? I know our shut-off valves are on top by the ALDA, so that is different but is the full load screw the same one as shown in the pics?

Thanks
David

The 60x and 61x pumps have very different governors, and the screws to adjust things are different. We know which ones to twiddle for the 60x pumps, but the 61x seems to be a little more finicky.

:)

I may be mislead but the 603's pump sure acts like it is fully governed across the entire engine speed range instead of <1100RPM and the 5400 max RPM points of the 617.952.

Hey,
Bad news guys...further adjustment of the screw doesn't yeild anything much more. I think I was merely taking up some slack in the boost inrichment mechanicals.

I called up the shop and they told me specifically which item has to be turned...it requires a special spanner wrench and is DEEP inside the IP. He said the only way to get it off (real tight) is to beat it off (not a good idea) or use the correct tool (very rare).

So it looks like there exists no easy fuel enrichment for the 617 Turbo IP. You can bring it back to spec however anything more is, at this point, a job of a IP shop.

Just to make it clear for anyone searching the forum, there exists no externally (or internally easy) adjustment to increase full load fuel. Period.

I will try to scan these documents here soon and get them posted on the forum so that you guys can see how crazy deep it is in the IP.

Brandon

Well it would have been nice if the fuel could be turned up easily but it really is no harder than pulling the pump. I haven't wanted to post the information widely for fear of the harm that may be done to innocent engines. The fact of the matter is with an easily fabricated tool one can turn the fuel up enough to melt the pistons back to slugs. I suppose that with that warning and the fact that you have to be smart enough to pull the pump and get it back in and timed properly is care enough. The full load fuel can be turned up at the large (20mm) nut like structure at the bottom center of the pump with the back cover off. There is a ring lock nut on this adjustment that should be loosened with a two pin spanner wrench. I fabricated a tool out of some 1” id stainless rail hardware. Once this lock ring is loosened then the center adjuster is turned clock wise to add fuel.

My broadband connection is down so I can’t post a picture, but if someone else wants to number the pic of the pump on my bench, I’ll ID the correct object

In my case I had an intercooler boost and EGT gauges. I made an initial adjustment of three turns. I also had to turn my ALDA back down about five turns to limit off idle smoke. All of the linkage and external stops need to be reset to allow the rack to reach full travel and safely return to idle.

Do what you will with this information it can transform your car into a real performer or destroy it if you are not careful. I am providing this for informational purposes only and I am not recommending anyone attempt this. I will not be liable for any damage you do, but I do wish the adventurous good luck!

Well so much for that....I tried to normal things out but I think I got the IP on spline off....can barely move...but I need to pull it all back apart tomorrow anyway...its after 9pm and I am tired....I'm going to take Bobs adjustment to 3/4 turn...and turn brandons adjustment 1/4 turn back in.

This just means I have no A/C tomorrow. I needed to do something anyway....in 95degre temps my egt aftually went too high for the first time tonight merging onto the highway....

so 1.5 turns with bobs adjsutment on mine was too much......I'll go to 3/4 and see how that responds for me..

Nobody is exagerating when they say make small increments and keep a close eye on EGT......and 2 cars are unlikely to have identical responses to the same adjustments as evidenced between mine and H2odiesel's car.

You sure that this is what you are adjusting? The big nut on the back of the IP is NOT what he is speaking of (atleast it seems via my diagram)
If you are sure you are turning what he is (its dead center at the bottom) then what did you use for a spanner wrench?

The adjustment I detailed adjusts something with the ALDA enrichment circuit and although doesn't give full load adjustment, really helped pick up my midrange power. You just play with it a bit.

Brandon

Here is a picture of the special wrench requiring adjustment...
http://brandon.importtransmissionexc..._files/ip2.jpg

That is the adjustment I made. I spoke with H2oDiesel about this on Rusties board about 2 months ago, 3 turns out of that and my car would not run slower than 3,400 rpm....1.5 turns out and it was real reluctant to idle down to 900 rpm but it did eventually....you HAVE to use brakes to slow down at all......but had my EGT actually go into the unacceptible range today when the outside temps hit 95 degrees.

Tomorrow weather permitting I will try 3/4 turn outward from original and see how it runs.

THere is a huge difference between how my car and how H2odiesels car responded to that adjustment.

My car had 1/2 the miles on it and the pump that his had and they may play a factor into it. Our two may very well the the opposite extremes and others will find something in the middle.

I fabricated a tool to fit that locknut from a spare spark plug wrench, a air cutoff tool and a bench grinder.

Thank you a bunch Bob for posting this...I know some people might screw this up but atleast they have to fabricate a tool first. :)

I couldn't distinguish in my diagrams how deep this adjustment was inside the pump. It looks as though it is very close to the outside. I will see if I can make up a diagram with tool requirments/measurements for the forum.

I will reinterate Bobs comment...do not even think of performing this modification without a pyro and boost gauge (at the very least)

I think it's dicey to even mess with increased fueling unless you've got a plan for mitigating the commensurate EGT increases--i.e. an intercooler or water injection.

Update:

I made my own spanner wrench and am currently adjusting the proper adjustment now. The IP shop led me to believe that it was harder to access. I don't even have to remove the filter tower from the car to do this job.

I will post results after I get it done...I am adjusting at about 1/4-1/3 turn intervals and it got dark.
Anyone for me modifying my website for the new meathod?

Brandon

Brandon,
Take a close look at the adjuster. You do have the correct one circled. The lock ring is at its base and locks against a plate. The adjustment is made be turning the whole assembly. You can turn it by hand. Also externally you need to re adjust the stops for the fuel lever. Back them out before you start turning things and then run them in until they catch the lever just as it reaches full travel when you move it by hand. You’ll notice the lever move toward more fuel as you make the adjustment, which means, you also need to look carefully at the linkage rods after it goes back in. I think the reason the doctor may have had a problem is he has also turned the small screw to the left of the adjustment. My source referred to this as the, "idle quantity recovery". When I was doing this after several times I could get the pump out, adjusted and back in, in under an hour. But, I was leaving out the support bracket under the back of the pump until I thought I was finished. Getting that return spring back on is a mother.

Oh I know...it takes a combo long needle nose pliers and nearly piercing my finger to get that thing on. *curses*

It sucks too becuase one of the pump cover screws are right behind it. :mad:

Thanks for detailing the adjustment...I wasn't adjusting the external stuff but will do that. So the linkage will literally move farther over its range or???
Thanks

Brandon

If it's anything like the M-type pumps on the OM60X engines, the throttle arm will move forward as you increase the full load quantity--the idle quantity screw is then adjusted to pull the throttle arm back so that it will idle at the correct speed.

In my case that didn't do much.....and at only 1.5 turns out of the full load adjustment I can almost remove the idle stop screw and it still idles at 900 RPM....

But like I suspect the difference is my IP has less than 100K miles on it adn yours had well over 200K...I think that mine was delivering more fuel at the get go due to less wear. And cranking the ALDA all the way back didn't help either (much that is, you do need to compensate on this). Tonight I will try to readjust it to 3/4 turn out from original. and reinstall it...as 1.5 turns on mine in hot weather is over the top.

This is a great example why SMALL increminatal adjustments are agood idea.

Most defintely. I have had the back off 2 times already for this adjustment...doing it nice and slow.
I am okay with overfueling it and then coming back as I can watch the pyro and easily let out of it if things are getting too hot too fast.
Were you getting noticeable smoke with the higher idle/adjusted?

Brandon

Oh it laid down some Black smoke.......under hard acceleration....but none once you eased up...But what really bugged me was the fact it wanted to hang at cruising speed and was real slow to return to idle speed.

Hmm...
Do you think adjusting your lower screw (bottom left hand corner), which we believe to be the idle quanitity adjustment, could slow the idle down?
I realize we are playing with fire here tinkering with so many adjustments but I am just throwing the question out...not nessisarily condoning the adjustment thereof :)

Doctor,
I'm sure it is just a slip when you say turns out, but to increase fuel I turned the adjustment in or clockwise.

H202, What special is required to do the 60x pumps? Did you remove your oil filter housing when you did yours?

Thanks
David

Just realizing this error :D

I've found that it takes between 40-50min from start to finish to adjust mine. (I don't remove the filter housing).

I will be making a webpage with pictures on how I do it if anyone is interested.

Brandon

For the OM603 pump, there's no need to pull the filter housing. But on the 124 at least, you need to pull the cruise actuator (not sure about the 126 but I'd assume it's the same). Plenty of room for access but the adjustments are TOTALLY different than the 617 pump. I haven't messed with my 603 pump yet, but I will be doing so by mid-July if possible (only 1/2 turn since I have no IC or WI.)

Side note... the meimann.com domain will be shut down shortly, in an attempt to kill the tidal wave of spam. It will come back eventually but just for email, no Mercedes content. All the Mercedes content has been moved to the W124performance.com domain instead. The full load doc would be here:

http://www.w124performance.com/docs/mb/OM60X/

:D

Anxiously awaiting results.... :D

Thanks
David

Yes...that was a typo becasue I had your email in my hand as I did it....just got things crossed up in my mind typing. Didn't get anything done tonight as I was awaiting word of if I was going to be heading to a undiscolsed Goverment location tonight...turns out I didn't go after all....so tomorrow I should get this done.

What is this undisclosed location you speak of? Just kidding. We should start a "what do you do for a living thread"

Thanks
David

Nope can't disclose that.......But a large portion of the work I do is for the goverment...as they are a customer.

The 300SD is offically adjusted. Idle is good and hasn't changed. It doesn't drop as quickly but I think that an idle quanitity screw adjustment might help that a touch :)

The Results?
Fast :)
No smoke as of yet...still bringing the boost down.
This pump has LOTS of room to add fuel.

Back out to play with the biodiesel...back later :)

I hope you plan to hit the dyno ASAP when you finish adjustments....

All I know is...100MPH is now easily obtained :)
Watching that pyro is a chore for the time being while adjustments are being made... :)
More adjustements tomorrow :)

If anyone can find a dyno shop around me I will run it.

Cool..I hope to get to mine tonight. and see if I got mine a spline off.....since I am working without a locking tool thats a possibility.

brandon,b-doc,
its been awesome eavesdropping on your conversation but i can't seem to find brandon's web page. here's a thought; has anybody considered retro-fitting one of those new TDI turbos w/ the variable boost? i find it frustrating that my 300td is a dog until i hit 2100 RPMs. maybe the tdi turbo won't push enough volume for a 3 litre.
db(benji's dad)

I think the TDI's turbo is undersized for the Benz....why..the TDI is 1.9 liters and the 617 is 3.0 it would have worse problems than the T-3....

What do I think would be practical...

A T3/T4 Hybrid based on a ceramic ball bearing center cartridge.....

The center cartridge while not cheap will alow you to spool faster...the T4 compressor section will allow higher boost volume at a higher efficiencey...the T3 is into its innefficent range by the time its at 15psi on a 3.0.


Now a variable vane turbo sized correctly for a 3.0 if one exists would be nice but I am unsure what means is used to control thos vanes.