Hey all,

Here's my long story this time! 1992 300D 2.5 Turbo, 217k.

So we were going to take it on a long weekend road trip from Mpls to Chicago and back. A small fuel leak from the injection pump appeared about a week before, but the car was running fine otherwise. So we decided to get the O-rings changed the day before we left. I was running out of time so I took it to a local MB dealer which I don't really like, but they are really close to my house. I talked with the service manager and a tech who is an old-time dieselhead and he said he'd bring in the spline socket to change it out tomorrow.

So I left the car with them, and picked it up the next day, work completed. The IP was dry as a bone (and still is to this day) but the idle was a bit funny, almost like it was missing on one cylinder. I thought there might be some dirt stuck in the lines, so I gave it an italian tune up on the way to a quick appointment. Power and acceleration was good. Still idling funny.

So I took it back and talked with the tech. He said that either the IP pump timing (and thus the engine timing, he said the IP was driven by the main timing chain so if the engine timing was off the IP timing would be off) or else my injector(s) were dirty/clogged.

I said ok, and we went to Chicago and came back without incident (and without a new car, which was part of the trip, doh!). 36mpg, best economy ever in that car.

So now I've driven it for a couple of weeks and it's been exactally the same, funny idle, good power, 28-30mpg aroud town.

I decided to purge it, as that should really clean out any gunk in the system, so I did that this afternoon. The engine is quieter (as usual when purging) but still idle's weird.

The IP is dry, no leaks. The metal fuel hoses coming off the top of it and to the injectors are straight, not twisted or anything. No fuel leakage at the injectors. Idle is good at aobut 750rpm. Car never dies or hesitates. Idle was smooth (relatively for a diesel) with a good rythmn before the service was done.

Fuel filters are pretty new, but I want to change at least the inline since I purged. Will do that this week sometime.

How do you recommend I proceed from here? Any testing I can do on my own that can help narrow down the problem? I don't want to bring it back to this same dealer for "general diagnosis" as I don't really want to bring the car to them at all. It's my fault for bringing it there in the hurry in the first place, I admit that.

Thanks for any help...........

-m

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Now:
2018 Tesla Model X
1999 S500 Grand Edition 164k
1992 300D 2.5 Turbo 287k
2005 E320 4MATIC wagon
1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 99k (sleeping for a while)

Then: 96 Lincoln TC, 93 Lincoln TC, 87 560 SEL, 87 300 SDL, 80 300D, 89 560 SEC

I assume your are talking about the delivery valves O rings? When doing this job it is possible that it will be botched. Either they were not torqued properly or didn't seat properly it happens.

If it were my car I would re do that job and see if the problem goes away.

Also it maybe a good idea to remove the injectors for testing.

If that engine is anything like my 603 you need an the RIV tool to check IP timing. But with the tool this is a very quick procedure. If the dealer thinks its timing then have them check it, at their expense. Although timing would not be affected by changing delivery valve seals. I don't see what checking timing will prove.

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2016 Corvette Stingray 2LT
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

Leaking pressure valve holder copper seal on one or more elements.

Take it back and have them re-torque the pressure valve holders (i.e. repeat the job and do it right this time).

Timing is not an issue, it's not touched when replacing a pressure valve holder o-ring.

Your good milage is a result of not injecting as much fuel in one or two cylinders as in the others -- causes rough idle and sometimes rather nasty injector knock.

We replaced them on my brother's SDL last week hoping to cure a rough idle. It helped, but I think it's really injector nozzle time.

Peter

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1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!

Peter, is it possible to have a loss of pressure but no fuel coming out of the delivery ports (valve holders)? As invisik said, there is no fuel leaking on his IP.
The reason I ask, I have been having a nailing type of noise, its in cyl 5 as determined by loosening the lines at the Injectors but I have no leaks anywhere. At least nothing visible at all, not even a film of fuel anywhere.
And I swapped injectors around with no change. I was about to think its my IP, but if you say it is possible that a leak can occur to drop pressure, why doesn't some fuel leak out?

I would still agree that he should take the car back to the dealer and have them retorque the ports to the procedure that I use 30 NM then loosen, then back to 30, again loosen the third time go to 35 NM and its done. Right?

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'95 E320 Wagon my favorite road car. '99 E300D wolf in sheeps body, '87 300D Sportline suspension, '79 300TD w/ 617.952 engine at 367,750 and counting!

First I would do the retorquing thing first. If no improvement then a volume flow test from each injector into a calibrated container to establish if injector flow is about equal from each injector over the same time period. If accumulated volume over time works out the same for each injector than it gets interesting. The mechanic did nothing to effect pump to engine timing so I would forget that test for now.

I've seen the volumetric flow test done at the Bosch service center, they lash the IP up to basically an engine lathe. It uses pipettes for individual ports, tiny pipes carrying the fuel (after purging air) and they read the RPM accurately and run for a specified time, all spelled out in some Bosch publication. Can one do this on the engine? I never thought of trying it but it would be easier (and cheaper) than yanking the IP and carrying it to the Bosch repair shop.
Incidentally the Bosch man (Gus) tells me that a nailing is from too much fuel. Or an open injector nozzle.

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'95 E320 Wagon my favorite road car. '99 E300D wolf in sheeps body, '87 300D Sportline suspension, '79 300TD w/ 617.952 engine at 367,750 and counting!

See absolutly no reason you cannot do the test yourself. Standard service proceedure on early volkswagon diesels. Of course common sense has to be applied like battery at same level for length of time cranking each injector. Plus an accuratly calibrated small container. Used primarily to eliminate certain possibilities basically. Or set up five lines and injectors to spray into 5 separate containers simultainiously. You could do comparison by weight with really accurate scales I think but they used to use small calibrated vessels. An extra set of injector lines from a junker to enable good positioning of injectors or bare lines is a good ideal for this test. Also allows a bonus of visual checking of spray pattern of each injector as well if you wish. A container much like a test tube might be the best if spraying through the injectors as release is so strong. On the otherhand cannot see why you could not collect just from the open lines either and might just prove easier and certainly more accurate in general. That also does eliminate variences in pop pressures as a factor.

The leak is between the delivery valve holder and the fill reservoir inside the IP, there is no fuel lost externally.

Definitely replace the delivery valve seal (copper washer, not the o-ring) on #5, they seem to go bad in service sometimes, and if not replaced when an o-ring replacement is done, never seal correctly.

Peter

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1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!

Hi all,

Thanks for the information. On mine, they did do the copper washers and o-rings. I will go back to the service manager and have them reseat the o-rings and ask about the torquing procedure used.

Just drives you crazy when it doesn't idle right!!

Thanks again. Will post when I talk to the dealer.

-m

__________________
Now:
2018 Tesla Model X
1999 S500 Grand Edition 164k
1992 300D 2.5 Turbo 287k
2005 E320 4MATIC wagon
1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 99k (sleeping for a while)

Then: 96 Lincoln TC, 93 Lincoln TC, 87 560 SEL, 87 300 SDL, 80 300D, 89 560 SEC

Did you get the problem solved? I done my number 4 today, new copper washer, and rubber O ring. Now I have this rough idle but runs smooth when running? But idle was very smooth before doing this? Could this problem be from lost pressure? Like you said it drives you nuts.

Couldn't stand the rough idle. Redone the job today. When assemblying, put the mount on the two bolts at same location as before. Used the shiny indention from washer to put back in same locatin. Started up, NO leaks and idle right.

Sounds good.... Hope they can do the same for me.

My appointment is Thursday. We'll see what happens.

-m

__________________
Now:
2018 Tesla Model X
1999 S500 Grand Edition 164k
1992 300D 2.5 Turbo 287k
2005 E320 4MATIC wagon
1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 99k (sleeping for a while)

Then: 96 Lincoln TC, 93 Lincoln TC, 87 560 SEL, 87 300 SDL, 80 300D, 89 560 SEC

Well, the dealer has had it for 6 days now. The original (and last) diesel tech was let go they told me, so there's another gasser guy working on it. Third day after they said he found a service manual on the car and will start reading that. I asked if they retorqued or reseated the o-rings yet, and they said they would tell him about that. No calls back for a day or so, and when I stop by I get the "He's working on it, give it another day" routine.

I stopped by today and the update is the tech decided to try a new coolant temperate sensor. I asked if I was paying for that and they said "No, he just wants to try it and see if it helps." The part was supposed to be coming in today (which the truck arrived as I was standing there) so he said he would call me back in the afternoon.

Knowing that won't help, we'll be going in for our money-back (or at least half, as they did fix the fuel leak, but then botched the rest of it, I recognize they did do SOMETHING successfully) so I can take it to my indy and get it re-fixed. Might give them until tomorrow as the Manager is not in as his house was burglarized last night, they said.

Meantime, I get to drive my new 89 560 SEC all day, which is not all bad--except the gas prices... heh

Thanks for your support.....

-m

__________________
Now:
2018 Tesla Model X
1999 S500 Grand Edition 164k
1992 300D 2.5 Turbo 287k
2005 E320 4MATIC wagon
1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 99k (sleeping for a while)

Then: 96 Lincoln TC, 93 Lincoln TC, 87 560 SEL, 87 300 SDL, 80 300D, 89 560 SEC

Lets get this right, the manager had to bring in his own spline socket to use in the shop (not very well equipped, are they?) the only diesel savvy person (mechanic?) was let go (why? too old or no good?) they are taking 6 days to see why the last botched installation of delivery nozzle seals made the engine idle poorly, and now they are going to replace a temp sensor for some unlogical reason (called shotgunning the problem)?!
Please keep us informed of the comedy (I'm sure its not funny to you!)
And yikes the 560 fill ups can be a painful. I drove a 560SEL loaner about 15 years ago, while my 300TD engine was out of the car and it had a bad idle speed control valve, I could almost see the fuel gauge dropping even sitting at a traffic light! But the car sure went fast when I told it to!

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'95 E320 Wagon my favorite road car. '99 E300D wolf in sheeps body, '87 300D Sportline suspension, '79 300TD w/ 617.952 engine at 367,750 and counting!

ive been down this road b4http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=108591 im starting to beleive some things on the 603 are better left alone

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michael cole 1980 300SD gone now but not forgotten,87tdt,90 300te 4matic 95 e320 wagon