$400 Find, Vacuum pump seized? (see pg 5)
 

Edit: now the engine seems to have seized. :confused: :( Any help would be greatly appreciated. See Page 5.




Just got a second '79 240D with 300K on the clock. The car is a stick and has no rust on the body, and a manual sunroof. The vacuum locks still worked after sitting for weeks. :D

The previous owner said it lost power and died on him on the freeway. I tried swapping the fuel filters and bypassing the fuel tank using a small bottle as a temporary fuel tank, but it won't quite fire. It has the old style primer pump, but when I prime it the clear pre-filter will never get more than half full of diesel.

The emergency cut off looks to be in the depressed position. (see picture below)I'm not sure if that has anything to do with the non-starting or not.

The only other problem is the clutch squirts fluid when you press it. It looks like the flexible line between the master and slave cylinders has a leak.

I plan to check the lift pump tomorrow, and maybe try a tow start. Anybody have any other ideas to try to get it running?

Thanks. –Bryan

Edit: it is a 240, not a 340.

Whats up with those screen door style springs on the linkage....something just looks wrong there..... :confused:

I'll bet its not starting from a fuel problem. Rarely do these cars just go from running fine to "lost power on freeway and died" sounds definatley fuel related. If compression is in question, perform a compression test and that will reveal the state of engine health.

Good luck! I hope you get it running!

First, get rid of those springs and figure out why they were put there in the first place.

Second. Are all the glowplugs working?

Third. Sounds like the primer pump might be bad. You should be able to get the updated one for around $20.

I don't know about the springs either. I disconnectend them and it seemed to spring back normally. I checked and the GPs seem fine.

disconnect a hard line or two from the injectors, crank, and see if they squirt any fuel, if not, there's the culprit. If they do I'd look further into the timing/glow/compression category

I would stick in the fast GPs, that usually helps, but a tow start does sound like a real good next shot. I had one that took about a mile of towing to get it started but then she always fired right up so give it a good long tow. If she wont start I would check the compression, even cold it might give a clue.

I wouldn't spend any money on it until it runs. Tow start it and see what happens.

Eventually I'll upgrade the plugs, but the loop plugs seem to be working for now. The accelerator linkage seems a bit wacky. If you press the stop button, it can not depress. From my memory the linkage seems to move less than my other 240, but I can not directly compare them because my other Mercedes is on the other side of the state. The rod that runs to the injector pump has a max travel of 1 inch or so. Can somebody compare that to their car and let me know if it is close?

Is there any chance that the lift pump, or drive for the Injection pump could have failed? Thanks. –Bryan

Try cranking with the linkage/pedal at WOT.

hmm...you know...look down between the IP and the motor..at that linkage that goes down in that area...look around the idle control screw...see if anythings is wrong down there..I have a thought...I had somthing happen to me down in that area and until i fab'd up a part to replace what i broke my diesel wouldnt start...

just a thought thou

kris

what happend was i over tighented the idle adjust screw and broke the cast housing it sat it...well i was pissed because i thought i would have to dump in a new ip... well luckily I knew a machist and we fab'd this and its been working ever since...maybe you have the same issue? something with the linkage down in that area...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...9/85410e4c.jpg

I'll take a look and a picture of that area tomorrow. I haven't spent too much time looking in that area on my working car so I'm not sure if I will be able to tell if it doesn't look right on this car. Maybe you can look at the picture and see if anything looks amiss. Thank you.

ohh there is an idle adjust screw?!?

please tell me it will help to even out the weeble wobble in-gear idle thing whilever i keep procrastinating on installing engine mounts!

You can check the lift pump by disconecting the return hose and seeing if any fuel comes out when you pump/crank. And cracking the injector lines as others have said will tell you if the injectors are getting fuel. If you really want to elininate the lift pump you can get a plastic bucket type thing with a spigot to hook your fuel line to -- the one that supplies the IP. Put some diesel in the bucket and lift it up to give you some pressure while you crank it.

Your linkage definately looks wrong with those springs. But cranking it at WOT, as others say, should get it at least some fuel I would think.

i dno if it will help with that but adjusting the rack dampnre screw at the back of the ip would help that.

Well I got the linkage figured out. The stop button was apparently broken in the past and welded in the wrong spot causing it to hang up. I removed the springs and it operates normally now. I also checked the idle screw and it does not look broken.

I put 5 gal of diesel in the tank, but I still can't get the prefilter to fill. When I prime the level in the filter actually drops. The car will cough and shake like it is about to catch, but never start. I guess I will try to crack the injector lines and try to get the clutch going for a tow start. Is there any chance that the IP timing could have suddenly changed its self?

IM juust a lil confused, you say you are going to tow start it. if your going to do what i think your going to do, how would that make any differance with it not starting? its still not getting fuel or anything, so why would it start from a tow start, if it wont even start with the starter, just dosent make any sense to me

Answer:
 

If my guess is correct, this will work...

Remove both fuel lines from the body tubes.
Insert both lines into a quart container of diesel...
Bleed the air out of the system.
Start the engine.

If this worked:


MB diesel filtration, how it works.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/141211-mb-diesel-filtration-how-works-post1055075.html#post1055075

Check out this fuel pickup screen
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/140961-check-out-fuel-pickup-screen.html

fuel filter change
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/112664-fuel-filter-change-post824006.html#post824006

Diesel filters, no tank strainers please.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/140349-diesel-filters-no-tank-strainers-please-post1046422.html?posted=1#post1046422

I'm baffled and at wit's end!?!?!?!?!
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/138961-im-baffled-wits-end.html

Algae/Fungus fixation...
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/138733-algae-fungus-fixation.html

Braided fuel lines weep. 1984 300TD turbo
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/158107-braided-fuel-lines-weep-1984-300td-turbo.html

240D fuel tank removal and cleaning
Good for any W123 sedan.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/92826-240d-fuel-tank-removal-cleaning-post813925.html#post813925

300SD Fuel Filter Replacement Instructions
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/105344-300sd-fuel-filter-replacement-instructions.html

Biobor, what is it, why do I need it???
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/105304-biobor-what-why-do-i-need-post723857.html#post723857

Filters, Fungus, Biocide, etc.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/115952-filters-fungus-biocide-etc-post823378.html#post823378

Algae Clogged Filter Pic StarTron WORKS !
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/138728-algae-clogged-filter-pic-startron-works.html





Have a great day.

My 300 SD took 30 or so revolutions to get fuel to leak from cracked nuts in the IP tubes to the nozzles. The OEM primer pump failed and I believe allowed air into the system as the engine died. I loosened the nuts roughly 1/3rd turn. Now I have a 'modern' prime pump ($16.00 & a 5 minute fix). So charge the battery, loosed the nuts and crank till you make a mess.

This may sound a bit ridiculous, but have you removed the oil filler cap and watched the camshaft while someone cranks the engine.

I don't see anywhere in the post where you know for sure that the timing chain hasn't broken. The previous owner indicated it just lost power and died. This could have been caussed by a broken timing chain.

Anyway, pardon me if you've already eliminated a broken timing chain as the culprit.

Cheers,
Wes

He already said "The car will cough and shake like it is about to catch, but never start.". It is possible that the chain jumped a link. That would put timing 18* off. Enough to severely hurt operation, but not always cause a catastrophic failure.

Don't have to look any farther than this I dont think. And I seem to be in agreement with Whunter also. So do what he said.

I tried using a bottle aux. fuel tank yesterday. The primer pump could still only get the filter half full of fuel for some reason. The battery died before I could check for fuel using the cracked injector lines. I will report back about that later. I'll take a look at the cam and check the timing using the mark on the tower. I am thinking the tow start will help get the fuel moving along with out killing the battery. I have to change the hydraulic line for the clutch before I can try to tow start it though. Off to check the cam...

just outa curiosity (sp) how are u gonna to start it?

Hmmm
 

Remove the lift pump output line from the secondary filter housing.
Insert the hose in an empty can.
Bleed the primer pump, keeping the hose end submerged.

Well the chain is there so that's good :D Sweet sassy molassy this thing is hard to turn over though. Is that a sign of good compression? :confused: :)

sorry my old post made no sense, i ment how are you gonna tow start it? with another car? or pushing it down the road?>??? agian just curious

Is it hard all the time or does it come and go?

Bad times
 

I could not get it to turn so I pulled the metal injector lines (which had fuel in them) and pulled the glow plugs. Even now I still can't get it to turn. Maybe the chain skipped another tooth and the valves are hitting the pistons now, although none of the cam lobes look like they are in the "open" position. What should I try now? :(

Starter speed is critical.
 

Is starter health important to your diesel?
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/107318-starter-health-important-your-diesel-post739798.html

The starter seemed to turn the engine over as quickly as my other 240D. I have charged the battery for a few hours, but now even the starter can not turn the engine. Last time it was turning over I was trying to start it and it was doing the usual cough and shake. I then released the starter and when I tried it again the starter would not turn it over.

My theories are:

1) the cam chain skipped another tooth and now the valves and pistons are interfering


2) the starter gear is stuck and will not allow the engine to turn.

I want to get the engine free and check to make sure the chain did not skip a tooth or two before I try anything else. Is it possible for it to skip during normal operation? I don't think the engine was turned counter clockwise.
Should removing the Glow plugs should eliminate all compression, or do I need to pull the injectors? Is there a special injector socket? Thank you all. –Bryan

I was going to pull it with another car. I need to figure out why the engine is stuck now though. :(

Removing the glow plugs will eliminate all compression.

If you are way off on cam timing so that you cant even turn it manually then I don't know how you are going to be able to actually check the timing. One way, i suppose, would be to tighten all the valves A LOT. I mean tighten the adjustment nuts so that the cams hardly even touch the valves. That would let you check and hopefully adjust the timing chain.

I still think you have a problem with fuel delivery. You could have a major blockage in the supply line (except you said the hand pump didn't really even work from a bottle). Or, it sounds weird, but you could have a major blockage in the return line. Or your pirimer pump could be broken, not just the hand pump, the whole lift pump. To eliminate the lift pump totally, try what I said about supplying the IP from a bucket with a spigot (so you can get a little fuel pressure at the IP -- not sure if that is neccessary, though, a bottle might be just as good). Just use filtered fuel when you do this. Of course you have to be able to turn it over to do that.

This is interesting (to me, at least, though probebly not to you). Good luck :).

Bad to worse
 

I pulled the injectors now too. It still wont turn. The lobe of the #4 intake valve is opening the valve, so there is a chance that it is binding on that valve.

Knowing that I don't have time to pull the head off right now, how would you recommend I proceed? Can anybody else think of something that would be binding the engine? (it is not in gear, I tried that :P) What is the likely hood that the chain could have skipped a tooth while driving, and another one while cranking?

I find it interesting too. Even if the engine is toast the body is worth what I paid for it. The only rust is under the battery, and it seems to have been fixed already. Thanks for all the help. –Bryan

You have all the injectors off, why not screw down all the valves so they are totally closed, or at least that one you noticed was touching the cam lobe, and see if that frees it up enough to turn it with a wrench. If not, I think this is what they mean when they say an engine has "seized". Hope not though.

While you were cranking, did the oil gauge show any pressure?

Ok, that is the problem, then. You are talking about a 340D. That is a totally different car.


(sorry. That was completely unneccessary and not helpful at all, was it? :o ;) :rolleyes: :eek: :( )

340Ds are very rare!

I don't remember if it showed any oil pressure. My other 240 does not register until it has been running for a second or two. The oil does seem a bit thin though.

How would I screw down the valves, the adjustment nuts? Do they have enough adjustment to close the valve if the cam cam lobe is open all of the way? I don't see how it could seize by just cranking.

I loosened the adjustment nuts on the valve that was open and then tried to turn the cam back and forth very gently using the nut on the sprocket. The cam is not binding. I also checked all of the belt driven peripherals and thy are free as well. This leaves the crank, pistons and IP to be binding. I still cant believe that cranking could seize the engine. The engine has oil in it. What the heck? :confused:

I did wash it today though. Looks like a million bucks....well maybe a few thousand...but definitely more than $400. :cool:

Here is the abridged version of what is going on now. :)

Yesterday I was cranking it with the starter and it was sputtering, but would not start. I released the key from the start position, and when I tried the starter again the engine spun slowly, then stopped, acting like the battery was dead. I later discovered that I could not turn the engine over even using a breaker bar on the crank nut.

I have removed the glow plugs and injectors and checked the belt driven accessories with no luck. I have also checked to make sure the valve train is free by gently rocking it using a wrench on the nut at the cam sprocket. The car has oil in it, but it seems a bit thinner than it should be. I did not notice if the engine was building oil pressure when I was cranking it.

I have a hard time believing that I could have seized the engine, but what else could it be? Thank you. –Bryan

Please don't start a new thread
 

You are better off sticking with this one.

If the title needs to change, go to your first post, click edit in the right lower corner, click "Go Advanced", change your title, click Save Changes...

Fixed

I agree that siezing from the starter turning is hard to believe. Im not sure if you have tried all this stuff yet, but here is what I would do in order:

1) Pull starter and try to hand turn it. Makes sense to me the starter that was spinning at the time of failure is most likey to blame.

2) Disconnect all the belt driven accesories and try it.

3) Loosen all the valves as far as you can. See if that lets you turn the engine a bit further than before. If so, then your thought about cam timing being a problem is true. Best way to fix would be to pull the tensioner, remove the front sprocket and re cam time using the cam tower notch. Not exact, but would get your motor spinning again sp you could time it correctly.

4) Pull IP and try it. Since fuel was an issue and it had all those bubba springs on it there could be an internal issue with the IP.

Good Luck!

Sounds logical. I guess I will get cracking. If all else fails I'll have to start looking for a 617 turbo. :D Thanks for the help and keep the ideas coming.

I have eliminated the belt driven accessories and valve train. I'll pull the starter a bit later. Anybody else have any ideas, or think that I could have fatally seized it while cranking it? Is it possible for the IP to jam and seize the engine? Thank you. –Bryan

I have had this happen before, the starter is binding on the flywheel. The bendix is still thrown out and binding on the flywheel teeth. Sometimes, with a weak battery, the bendix won't come back after you release the key. I just had to remove and relace the starter on my Ford 8N tractor after I ran the weak battery down trying to start it. The engine was frozen solid. I hope this helps.

Yeppers. Thats why pull starter was #1 on my list. I had that happen in my diesel blazer on a cold morning. I wacked the starter with a 5 pound hammer and I heard it snap back. Starter died soon after....one of many in that infernal beast.

John Holmes III you just beat me to it. I had the opposite thing just happen, ring gear spinning round the f/w, I becha you pigged it :)

%^*^($#$^#$%
 

It's not the starter. I pulled it and it was still stuck. I found a post where somebody described their cam chain tensioner failing and allowing the chain to wrap around the lower sprocket and then hit the oil pan. I think I will try pulling the pan next. Stay tuned. :rolleyes: