Another Oil Change Question - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

#16 02-20-2007, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 240Joe

tarbe said "Besides, if it drives 240Joe nuts, it has to be worth doing! "

Craig said "Probably a short drive."

Ok, now I don't want to hear anyone say I started it, because they did.

Let's try a 3 pronged approach...the hard science explanation, the soft science explanation, and the emotional appeal.

The hard science: Soot is 0.03 microns in size, or 1.2 millionth of an inch....really really tiny. They have to use a scanning electron microscope to take pictures of it. Google it...you'll see. If the Soot doesn't clump, it can't do any damage...PERIOD, end of story. Soot is the only practical limiter in the length of time oil can stay in our old diesel mercedes, mostly because we have large sumps (8qts), and relatively light duty....130 hp AND an oil cooler. That oil is seeing easy duty. This has been proven time and again with oil analysis. Most of our diesels put about 1 to 2 % soot in the oil per 10000 miles. Modern synthetic diesel oil can easily handle 4 to 5 % soot, and Amsoil has one that handles 10%. Average fuel yeilds 4/1.5 is 27kmiles OCI. Good fuel and the EGR blocked yields 4/1 or 40kmiles. END OF STORY.

Now for the soft science: People that change their oil every 3kmile (even when the manufacturer recommends 5kmiles are engaging in a form of auto repair masturbation. They are doing an easy repair that doesn't really fix anything, but they like the feeling it yields. It is a mental illness just like excessive masturbation.

And the emotion appeal: Changing oil at 3kmiles versus the manufacturer's recommendation wastes approximately 1.1 trillion gallons of refined oil pure year in the US alone. It creates environmentally issues and funds radical mid-eastern governments. It costs our young sons their lives or limbs. It lowers our standing in the world. Most pro-3kmile changers are from the oil states...it's no coincidence that the infamous change it hot and ofter is from the great state of Texas.

I welcome any responses.

240Joe

Just curious. Did you read the original post in this thread or did you just dive right in with your regular diatribe? Your rant about soot is Oh So Interesting, but the subject is moisture in the crankcase and one of his cars isn't even a diesel. If he drives his cars to even 3,000 miles before changing, one of them will go almost 3 years without an oil change. At that point, under his conditions, to exagerate, he will be draining out more water than oil. Does that sound healthy for his engine?

I just love it when you answer the question before you have even read it. Of course, we have come to know oh so well how typical this is of you.

tarbe · #17 02-20-2007, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryBible

Just curious. Did you read the original post in this thread (NO!)

or did you just dive right in with your regular diatribe? (YES!)

I know, rhetorical questions. You know the answer already.

240Joe · #18 02-20-2007, 05:52 PM

Several people have already told him to run it long enough for the oil temperature to boil out the water. I assume he will do that.

If you can get all the water out of the engine by running the oil at over 212 degrees F every once in awhile, why would you dump that oil with 3kmiles?

I'm trying not to be redundant.

240Joe

Don't change your oil often, save the beautiful things on this Earth

#19 02-20-2007, 06:03 PM

Only YOU could consider oil to be beautiful.

240Joe · #20 02-20-2007, 06:08 PM

And you don't? Being from Texas? Oh come on!

Black gold, Texas tea.....

240Joe

Brian Carlton · #21 02-20-2007, 06:11 PM

10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2.........

rayten · #22 02-20-2007, 06:37 PM

if 3k is so magical, why does my car not even "want" new oil, (MB spec) for 10K?

I listen to the people who designed and built it!

barry123400 · #23 02-20-2007, 07:18 PM

We might all benifit if we could engage the services on our site of an automotive car and truck lubrication engineer to answer our questions. They must or should know their specialty inside out. Plus have no particular pre existant bias.
I suspect we have been more than a little influenced by advertising over the years. Plus rampant hearsay as this oil thing has always been a bone to chew on long before this site existed. I even remember when quaker state was the oil to use until I had premature valve train lifter wear on some cars. That was enough for me. It just was all advertising hype really. In fact so much so that people become polarised easily. There may be many facts that we do not realise other than the common folklore.
By and large the total duty life cycle of engines has been extending for quite a long time now. I am not even sure if it is the newer oils or a combination of things or the engine materials used now alone.
I do not fear using a mercedes 123 diesel engine with say 240k true original miles over great distances now if the engine still seems tight. This was not so 40 years ago.
One curse of our older 123 diesel engines is in general we do not know the true accumulated miles in too many cases. This makes it very hard to form certain conclusions about the true durability with different lubrication approaches on 123s.
Even today some people would never change their oil out from day one with new cars. The only reason they do is to not void the engine warranty in my opinion.
The only oil that impressed me in the old days on gas cars was shell rotella. It was very expensive back then in comparison to other oils. For the engines I opened up that used it there seemed to be less wear than average and they were very clean. This product was not hyped to death with claims. In fact very few I knew used it. The majority tended to buy the brands where the advertising budget was king.. Yet those oils seemed to have the poorer bases in comparison. This is yet again just another opinion that may be badly flawed. There will be more.

barry123400 · #24 02-20-2007, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rayten

if 3k is so magical, why does my car not even "want" new oil, (MB spec) for 10K?

I listen to the people who designed and built it!

You are reffering to the newer direct injection engines I assume. They produce far less soot for starters. The manufactures recommendations are for average use. I assume that means for almost all uses the car is running long enough to get the oil to operating design temperatures. I believe there should be a further note in the manual about far more frequent changes required under poorer operation paremeters.

patbob · #25 02-20-2007, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 240Joe

.. People that change their oil every 3kmile (even when the manufacturer recommends 5kmiles are engaging in a form of auto repair masturbation. They are doing an easy repair that doesn't really fix anything, but they like the feeling it yields. It is a mental illness just like excessive masturbation.
..

I welcome any responses.

The manufacturer has a vested interest in selling you a new car, so their numbers are not all about how to get the engine to last the longest it can. They are not even about the optimal tradeoff between the extra fossil fuel used in maintence vs. the amount of fossil fuel needed to make a replacement. They are simply a balance between how long you'll accept as an ownership duration before buying another car from them -- too short and they'll go broke because you'll buy someone else's car to replace it, too long and they'll go under while waiting to sell you your next car.

Maybe 3mo/3k isn't the most optimal answer, but I'm sure it'll result in a longer-lived, well-running engine than the manufacturer's recommendations. I'm sure I'll use far less fossil fuel keeping that old car running than replacing it with another.

Slightly off topic, but one also needs to consider fossil fuel savings due to simple MPG gains. I've done the math, and it still isn't there yet (but it's finally getting close).

anhydrous7 · #26 02-21-2007, 07:55 AM

Why and how is Mr. Bible considered an oil technical expert? Where did he get his training?

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Mr. Bible confess to ruining one of his precious MB engines due to negligence. Is he really ASE certified?

I think people on this forum are being led down a path by Mr. Bible. People should use this forum to read the 'opinions' of others and then judge for themselves if the information is valid and useful for their own automotive related situation.

It seems that Mr. Bible and others are rather obsessed by this oil change hype. Ask yourself why should it matter to Mr. Bible if someone prolonges their oil change interval.

Something smells fishy in Texas.

tarbe · #27 02-21-2007, 08:11 AM

I won't pretend to speak for Larry.

I am not opposed to extended intervals. I am opposed to people recommending extended intervals without any testing, oil analysis or knowledge of folk's driving habits. That, in my opinion, is foolish and potentially very wasteful.

I am not a certified tribologist. I am a chemist employed in the petro-chemical industry and have been studying oil analysis on an almost daily basis for the past 4 years. I have also been maintaining my own cars for about 30 years. This is a hobby, I guess you could say.

I find it rather in poor taste for you to impune Larry Bible's integrity as you have. It is fine to disagree. But why stoop to insinuation?

Tim Arbeiter
Houston, Texas

anhydrous7 · #28 02-21-2007, 08:24 AM

You will find that Mr. Bible declared by his own admission that he scrambled an engine due to negligence. I am just trying to forwarn the newbies that just because he or some of the others speak, it does not mean the truth is coming out.

Tread caustiously!

#29 02-21-2007, 08:29 AM

I'm confused, are you are trying to protect folks from damaging their engines by following Larry's advice to change their oil often? Maybe it's too early for me to follow this "logic."

Hatterasguy · #30 02-21-2007, 10:24 AM

First theres no such thing as Mobil 1 15w40. Are you talking about Delvac 1300 15w40? If so thats dino not Mobil 1, hence the cheap price.

When a car isn't driven much you need to do all maintaince by the calander. Thats how they do it with collector cars. Even if you only drive say a Ferrari 328 2k miles a year, the engine still gets yanked and the timing belts still get changed every 4 years or so. Mileage doesn't matter. I do this with the SDL, the oil gets changed twice a year regardless of mileage. One oil change has 0 miles on it, the other usualy about 5k.

For such a short commute I'd buy a cheap 4cy gas car, MB diesels are not built for 3 miles a day.