Again, it's not about being obsessed with precision... It's about understanding how those two very different rates can be interchangeable... Please read my words, don't just assume you know what I am asking...
Some tutorials advise 1 drip every 20 secs... If you are getting one drip every 15, for instance, you are supposed to keep adjusting the IP until you get it right... 1 drip every 20 secs! Others say 1 drip/sec, and also ask for strict adherence to this rate. How in hell can these two different rates be interchangeable in order to get to the same end result? That is precisely my question...

Drips
 

I appreciate the concern about conflicting info.....The difference between the two counts seems to be what source the info is coming from...(MB) (Bosch) (Haynes) (Bently) (Chilton)
I have noticed that some manuals for the older pumps have different counts from the newer ones...
Bosch may have a slightly different count from Mercedes for the same pump....I bet there have been some good arguments in the Fatherland over this topic with much cussing and beer drinking....
One drip every 20 seconds would place the timing a tad earlier than the one drop every 1 second...
I go with the earlier timing to compensate for wear of components....plus it seemed to have more power on the more advanced side of timing range on my older engines...

What do you mean "a tad earlier?" The difference between 1 drop/20 secs and 1 drop/sec is H-U-G-E, if you look at the fact that, when using the first method, if you are at 1 drop/23 secs, for instance, or 1 drop/17 secs, you are considered to be way off and are supposed to patiently keep trying until centering it at 1 drop/20 secs... If the two rates were considered to be so close as you say, the difference between, say, 1 drop/15 secs and 1 drop/20 secs would be considered negligible. But it's not, and this according to both methods. According to the 1 drop/sec drip rate method, for example, if you are at 1 drop/2 secs, you are considered to be off and expected to get it precisely at 1 drop/sec. So according to the directions given for both methods, the difference between 1 drop/sec and 1 drop/20 secs is considered to be H-U-G-E and not negligible as you say. Yet these two very different drip rates are adopted by different people to supposedly get precisely to the same end result... This is what does not make any sense at all to me and I thought I was perhaps not interpreting correctly at some point... hence my coming here asking for clarifications.

Well, I have asked my question. This exchange between the two of us, with me saying over and over the same thing and you doing the same, is not conducive to much... I don't think you understood my question well... which again is a conceptual one about the validity of method and not about how to do it in the best way possible... So, if someone understands what I am asking about and has an answer to that, I'm all ears...

Stupid question, why hasn't anyone used an electrical pump instead of the primer pump? You would get a steady flow...

Fill up the fuel tank, elevate the rear end; gravity will provide all the pressure you need. No pump required.

Drips
 

I forgot to ask what sources you are using that describe the two methods...

I have another manual that states one drop should follow another every 10-15 seconds...so this is a third method for us to throw into the mix....as follows...

One drop every second
One drop every 10 to 15 seconds
One drop every 20 seconds

The same end result will not be achieved by the above methods....
The difference in timing will be there but very small
You are correct in saying that these values are not the same...
The same Timing values are not acheived by the above three methods...

It would be interesting to see how much difference in dynamic numbers would be between the three methods....If I ever get the timing equipment I will get values for all 3 methods ...

I find the same type of difference in manuals describing valve clearance numbers...all a little different but all very close....
I love this forum...it keeps my simple little brain fully engaged...

I hope some other forum members can jump in here to help us on our search for truth and understanding of this mystery....Barry???...Brian..???
We need help here...??!!

Several... I took relevant notes with all of them, but I didn't jot down the exact source, unfortunately, for all. One of the 1 drop/sec versions that I looked at is the one provided in the DIY section of this forum... which, by the way, is one of the best I've come across (the pictures accompanying the text help a lot...)

And that's not all... :eek: I did come across one that suggested one drop should follow another every 3 seconds... So there you go, a fourth method thrown into the mix:

One drop every second
One drop every 3 seconds
One drop every 10 to 15 seconds
One drop every 20 seconds


THANK YOU VERY, VERY, VERY MUCH!!! (forgive me for raising my voice in my excitement...) You have finally understood what the f*ck I've been talking about all along...

That's right, my friend, we need help from someone with a solid technical background who understands what the hell we are talking about and who is capable of reading questions thoroughly instead of assuming he knows what is being asked at first glance... Hopefully, that someone will show up and enlighten us all...

Thank you. :)

That's ingenious. Very simple and seems to solve the problem. I gotta try that sometime.

Scott

Page 07.1.8-115/3 of the Mercedes-Benz OM617.95 factory service manual.

I have to say I haven't seen this solution anywhere in all the tutorials I've looked at so far... And I second what Scott said, very ingenious... simple and apparently efficient... where did you get it from?

BTW, no one is coming forward with something to say regarding what was discussed about the four drip tube methods... Logic says that either one of those methods is right and all the other ones are wrong (which one, though?), OR none of them is worth s*it...

OK, Forced... that's what the FSM says. And yet you know very well (you know what other place I refer to) that there are seemingly very experienced mechanics that swear by the 1-drop/20-secs method, saying it is more precise...
But my point, which I have expounded earlier, is that it cannot be "more precise," because each of those methods mentioned in this thread negates all the other ones in principle... one has to be necessarily right, if at all, and the others wrong... the question is, which one?

I'd bet they will all work perfectly well. The difference between 1 drop per second and 1 drop per 20 seconds probably works out to less than 1* difference in actual injection timing.

IMHO, it's personal preference. Doing it one way or the other won't hurt the engine unless you are trying to run 28*+ of timing advance.

And you are probably right in that. But this whole thread was based on a conceptual question I asked about the validity of available methods...

Let me demonstrate in the simplest way possible...

Let's say that I adopt the 1-drop/sec method. I set the balancer at 24 degrees (or 26, or whatever you like) and then get the dripping going... Gosh, I'm getting 1 drop every 3 seconds... Shoot! Now I have to loosen up the IP and start moving it around... :mad:

But wait a minute, there's another method available that I could have opted for, the one of the 1-drop/3-secs that makes it right... Wow! By adopting that method I can now spare myself that PITA adjustment procedure with the IP...

Or, conversely, say I had adopted the 1-drop/20-secs method... only to find out that I was getting 1 in 15... But, now by switching to and adopting the one that says 1 drop every 15 to 20 secs is just fine, I have to do nothing... the timing is right... the timing is perfect...

And so forth and so on.... Do you see how ridiculous the whole thing is... it does not make any sense at all... Why then not just say from 1 drop/sec to 1 drop per 20 secs is just fine. But how do we know, then, that 2 drops/sec wouldn't be just as fine? And so forth and so on... The possibilities are endless... Now, do you see exactly what I mean?

Wait, wait... You know what? I've just invented a new method... It is called "the Rino method of setting the IP timing via the drip tube..." it is based on 1 drop every 30 seconds... It is the most precise method of them all... :silly:

Let me repeat that I agree with what you said... within the range you mentioned everything probably works... But conceptually speaking? The coexistence of these different methods for doing it, all of which in principle negate one another, is all a f*cking joke...

I'd bet money that anyone with a timing chain more than a year or two old will NOT get 1 drop per 1-30seconds if they checked it right now.