Someone posting here suggested not to use the hand pump at all, but to simply fill the tank with fuel and raise the rear end to provide the necessary pressure in a less variable manner...

How does that improve things, in your view?

Which is just another way to state my initial point. I had found the strict adherence, that so many swear by, to one drip rate (be it 1/ 1 sec, 1/ 3 secs, or 1/ 20 secs) absurd and contradictory, and started this thread trying to understand if it was I who was missing some important point...

The suggestion is valid. It provides you with constant fuel pressure. Whether the pressure provided by the method is the pressure desired by the IP to achieve the specification would remain a question.

I do think you are way too focused on the fine details of the measurement, when, in reality, the engine won't know the difference if the timing is off by one or two degrees.

We measured six different vehicles with a pulse timing unit at a GTG in New Jersey. They varied by nearly eight degrees from the one with the latest timing to the one with the earliest timing. None of the owners had any complaints about the operation of the engine.

Suffice it to say that the method will work effectively with any fuel pressure. The difference in timing isn't worth the constant discussion that is prevalent on this thread.

Wait a minute... At the other place no one was able to even understand my basic question. And a question it was, not an argument...
Here, after Yellit finally understood what the hell I was talking about... for the first time there have been some truly informative exchanges... which I'm grateful for.

Darn it, Danny... How in hell would I know that I needed to search "Bubble Method" and "Timing Tool" and "RIV method" if nobody gave me a clue before?
All this waste of bandwith and time... and to think that right after my very first post you could have stepped in and advised, "Try searching on the 'Bubble Method' and 'Timing Tool' and 'RIV method.'"

Do you get my point, Danny?

If you do decide to use the search function, don't bother with the one on this site. It can't search "bubble method". I can't search "timing tool". It can't search "RIV method". The reason is that it only uses single words. You'll get any post with "timing" or "tool" when you search "timing tool".

Use google's complete phrase and restrict your domain to mercedesshop and you'll get what you need.

Look Brian, the reason why I came here and asked specific questions is that I am a total beginner at this and found the information provided by various sources baffling and confusing. So I started asking questions... Now, finally, I am getting real answers, which I finally find logical and satisfactory...

Fine. Let's end it here then. I hope that other people as baffled as I was will find their answer here... as I did. So this thread might be useful, after all.

So, shall we state a bottom line for the simple-minded?

Use a full tank, raise the rear end and do NOT pump the hand pump, set it at 26 degrees and use a drip rate of 1 drop every 20 seconds...

Do you second that, when more sophisticated tools aren't at hand?

Thanks.

Thanks.

I can't comment on the need to raise the rear end. Seems like another variable that may not be necessary.

As previously mentioned, the drip rate is irrelevant. Provided it slows from a stream to a drip........you'll be fine with the setting. You don't need to stand there with a stopwatch and readjust the pump if you're getting a drip rate of 1 drop every two seconds........as an example.

I always felt it may slighltly lower the cold start temperature of the engine to be at 26 degrees rather than 24. Yet perhaps not by any signifigant margin. A lot of diesel designs preffer a slight advance to lower cold start temperatures. Some cars even have manual aids like earlier volkswagons to give you about a three degree advance for cold starting. Consider going for the 26 degree setting. Nothing can be hurt and believe me you usually do want everything these engines can produce. Also if you do not know when the valves were last checked out it is usually worthwhile to check their clearances as well.

Oh, I thought you said it was a valid suggestion, that it provided a constant fuel pressure... I mean, do we know for certain that pumping the hand pump a few times will provide the pressure desired by the IP to achieve the specification in a better way than raising the rear end? At least, raising the rear end will provide constant fuel pressure, which the hand pump does not... Comments?

Thanks. And you endorse the 26 degree setting for a 616 (1979 240D), I presume?

OK, 26 degrees shall be...

I just did the valve adjustment myself last week... (my first)
I used the tutorial from this forum and a pair of wrenches I made myself for $6.40, modeled after the original Hazets...

Just curious, how did you determine what the valve clearances should be?

Well, I looked at specs in my Haynes manual, plus I confirmed it with the info from the various tutorials I had read... On a cold (overnight) engine, I used .30MM for E and .10MM for I (keep in mind mine is a 616, non-turbo). As I said, it was my first valve job. I got plenty of advice from Phil on the procedure to follow and the tools. I made my own set very cheaply, and they worked out wonderfully, couldn't have guessed any better on the design...

Take a look at my own set of beauties... which cost me only $6.40 to make and work just as well as the Hazets do (at about $100...) :D

Attachment 42770

I am a bit baffled that you trust the Haynes Manual procedures for valve adjustment but, apparently, don't trust their IP timing advice.

What is more detrimental to an engine, tight valves or retarded injection timing? If Haynes is wrong about injection timing, couldn't they be wrong about valve clearances?

I hope someone with a strong technical background will come forward immediately and explain the logic behind this baffling, inconsistent and seemingly irrational logic.

Brian... For Rino's and other's sake...
 

Q1 - Brian... to follow up on my last POST on this THREAD, let me ask IF your specialized GOOGLE search method [mentioned above]... will such a search also find material in the MercedesShop.Com\Wikka WebPages as well? I ask this because I know the normal Search on these FORUM WebPages will NOT include those excellent Wikka DIY articles [including my small small article!]. I guess I need to experiment with your idea.
As you probably know I'm a strong supporter in our FORUM users trying to learn more effective ways of performing SEARCHes and therefore doing more homework before POSTing a new THREAD/question... so:
Q2 - Just exactly how does one "restrict your domain to mercedesshop"?
Q3 - Can you give us a concrete example?
Regards