Rotella synthetic 5W40 is $16.88 a gallon at Wally Mart...

http://www.imakenews.com/rotella/e_article000373489.cfm?x=b11,0,w

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Sharing my partner's 2012 Forte 5dr SX til I find my next 123 or 126..
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Do I miss being a service advisor ???

Yep, I know it's emissions related. But they're generally pulling additives that our engines like. And I'm not so sure the newer formulas can handle the soot load that our older, indirect-injection engines produce. The newer cars make far less soot, so the new oils don't need to deal with it. And they can't have certain oil additives which could plug the fancy new particulate traps. You'll notice that the TBN of the new D-1 ESP is lower than the previous formula... and lower TBN is never a good thing, IMO.


BTW, check out this M-1 Product Guide (PDF file). There is a note on M-1 TDT that says it will be reformulated in early 2008 to meet CJ-4 specs, and phosphorus will be reduced to "0.11"... but it doesn't explain how "0.11" relates to the previous phosphorus level of 1300 ppm. Fortunately I had saved an older version, which makes it appear that "0.11" may indicate 1100 ppm.

Rotella Syn is not a true synthetic... go back and read post #14 for details.

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Then Shell is lieing on their site...

http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=rotella-en&FC2=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/products/zzz_lhn.html&FC3=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/products/product_rotellasynth.html


ROTELLA® T Synthetic

Fully synthetic heavy-duty engine oil.



Product Description



Shell Rotella® T Synthetic SAE 5W-40 is a fully synthetic heavy-duty diesel and gasoline engine oil developed especially to meet the requirements of North American driving.



The exclusive Shell formulation offers users exceptional performance and protection in combination with enhanced fuel economy potential over conventional 15W-40 motor oils. This synthetic multigrade engine oil meets the service requirements of virtually all four cycle diesel and many gasoline engine manufacturers.



Applications

Recommended for new and older diesel- and gasoline-powered vehicles, including personal vehicles and commercial vehicles such as on-road, off-the-road, truck rental, pickups, delivery, utility, and school bus fleetsMeets or exceeds the diesel engine requirements of API CI-4 PLUS, Cummins CES 20078, Detroit Diesel, John Deere, Dodge, Ford, GM, International, Mack EO-N Premium Plus 03, Volvo and others; For gasoline engines, it exceeds API SL.
Features/Benefits



Formulated for multipurpose use, simplifying inventory needsOutstanding wear protection and bearing corrosion control helps maximize engine lifeHelps speed cold starts even with low winter temperaturesEnhanced oxidation stability and soot control, especially at higher temperatures, aids service lifeImproved fuel economy – when compared to conventional SAE 15W-40 oilsProduct is warranted against defect and has performance which meets or exceeds virtually all equipment manufacturer’s engine oil warranty requirements.
Approvals and Recommendations

API CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF-4, CFAPI SL, SJ, SHCummins CES 20078, 20076, 20071Detroit Diesel 7SE 270Mack EO-N Premium Plus ’03, EO-N, EO-M PlusVolvo VDS 2

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Sharing my partner's 2012 Forte 5dr SX til I find my next 123 or 126..
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Do I miss being a service advisor ???

The newer engines supposedly dump more soot into the oil because of higher EGR rates, at least that's what I've been reading. Either way CJ-4 is supposed to handle soot and heat better than any previous API standard. Lower TBN is no problem because we now have ULSD. It was the relatively high sulphur in diesel fuel that previously required high TBN.

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2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

The dealer has had these ESP oils for a year now, my understanding is that they have less zinc in them to keep all that emissions equipment on the new CDI's and Cummins happy.

Now I have heard of these new oils ruining cams on pretty pumped big block Chevy's, will this be a problem with our engines? I don't know if it will because those engines usualy have pretty heavy valve springs.

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2016 Corvette Stingray 2LT
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

I'll probably just buy a case of this.

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2016 Corvette Stingray 2LT
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

Yes they are. As are most of the other manufacturers. Any way you slice it, modified dyno oil ain't a true synthetic, and the performance is significantly below the Mobil / Amsoil / Red Line products.

Do you really think that stuff costing $17/gal is going to be identical to stuff costing $24-$36 per gallon? There's a reason it's so much cheaper. Do some research on the topic, you'll find out that when the marketing monkeys use the term "synthetic" they use it VERY loosely.

For an excellent summary of this topic, click this link. The only error is he states Mobile (sic) oils are Group III, which is (or at least was! incorrect. Here's a short excerpt:

Group III synthetic oils only use about 12% synthetic base stocks. The rest is hyrdocracked petroleum base stocks. For major oil companies who have their money in crude oil refining, the word "synthetic" is merely a marketing term. It does not mean 100%, but just that a percentage of synthetic base stock goes into their product.

I'm not so sure about the higher EGR rates, and soot production, in the newer engines... but I don't have any data to prove it either way. But I would expect far lower soot with the newer direct-injection diesels, at least compared to our indirect injection (OM61x / OM60x) engines.

I had been using M-1 15W-50 EP for the last couple of changes and I have not been happy with the performance overall. I was thinking "no problem, I'll just go back to D-1"... but I'm also not interested in being the guinea pig for the yet ANOTHER new reformulation.

Hattie, that AFL stuff has an even lower TBN! The old D-1 was, IIRC, about 12. The new M-1 TDT is 10.7, and I can't find a spec for the new D-1 ESP. But the Amsoil Euro 5W-40 is 8.0, yikes. Then again, Amsoil's normal DEO is also 8.0 now. The 15W-40 AME "heavy duty" stuff is still 12.1, which is more what I'm looking for. Even with ULSD, the higher the TBN, the longer you can safely extend the drain interval.

Although I like Amsoil's products, and they are a bit cheaper than Red Line, I still dislike Amsoil's marketing methods... and also that they no longer offer the older Dex-II & Dex-III ATF formulas (something Red Line still does offer). When I disagree or dislike what a particular company is doing with their products or marketing, all I can do is vote with my dollars and buy something else. In this case, it may end up being Red Line. I may contact Red Line and ask what the TBN numbers are, just out of curiousity, since they're not published in their tech specs.

I think for $10.88 a gallon, I'll just stick with the Rotella 15/40. It's been in my engine thru the 1st & 2nd owners..

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Sharing my partner's 2012 Forte 5dr SX til I find my next 123 or 126..
-
Do I miss being a service advisor ???

That's fine stuff, just don't let it go for more than 3-5kmi... one of the advantages of Group IV/V synthetics is the ability to go 10-20kmi between changes. Dino oil can't deal with the extended drain intervals. But it's not a problem if you don't mind changing every 3k.

For one of my UOA's of Red Line 5W40 from my Jetta I paid for the TBN test. The original TBN was 7 and after 5K miles it dropped to 5.3. All the TBN does is counter acids from combustion and prevent rust. It has nothing to do with anti-wear. As long as you have a sufficient TBN, more is not better.

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2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

This is API's official word on the CJ-4 oil standard:

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2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

True. But it does have an impact on extended drains. You can extend the drain interval based on two main limits... amount of soot suspended (until you reach the limit of what the oil can suspend... typically under 2% is preferred), and also until the TBN drops to roughly half of the original level. A higher TBN should allow longer intervals, but it will vary with every engine. Here's a good comment from Caterpillar:

TBN is a measure of an oil’s ability to neutralize sulfur byproducts. For older precombustion chamber diesel engines, use an API CF-4, CG-4 or CF class oil that has a minimum TBN equal to twenty times the fuel’s sulfur level. Keep the normal operating temperature in your cooling system above 180 degrees F (74 degrees C). This will limit the condensation of sulfur compound vapors that are formed during the combustion process on cylinder liner walls and the associated corrosive damage. If you don’t know the fuel’s sulfur content, use an oil with the highest TBN available of the correct API class. Consider using a reliable oil analysis service to define the oil drain interval.

Also check out pages 9-11 of this Cat PDF with some more info on TBN and how it relates to sulfur content.

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