Mobil done it again - changed Delvac-1 and Mobil-1 formulas
 

I'm reeeeaaaally getting tired of Mobil's monkeying with their product line. The Delvac-1 formula changed... it is now "Delvac-1 ESP", with a CJ-4 rating. Click here for a photo of the jug and some more info. And, the Mobil-1 5W-40 "Turbo Diesel Truck" oil has also changed, it's got a spiffy new label on the bottle, and is also CJ-4 rated. Click here to see Mobil's website info, or click here for the data sheet.

However, I called Mobil and asked if the two were the same. Answer: No. They are NOT the same formula. The tech was unhelpful and didn't elaborate. And at first he didn't even know the M-1 TDT was reformulated, I had to convince him that I was looking at a new bottle with new ratings! D'oh!

Anyway, up until recently, the M-1 TDT oil was identical to the (original) Delvac-1 oil... same formula, same oil, different bottle. But it looks like that is no longer the case. If you are wondering what "ESP" stands for, it's "Emissions System Protection", where they have removed (or reduced) certain additives from the oil. Click here for more details. FWIW, I don't plan to use any ESP oils in my older (80's and 90's) engines. Now it looks like I'll be hunting for the "old" stuff before it vanishes entirely... *sigh*


:wallbash:

Well I dread the day Amsoil or Redline starts monkeying with their products! :mad:
I can afford their 15W40 full synthetic on the 603 engines because I push it to 5000 miles between changes. I once did 7500 miles and although the analysis came back ok, that mileage occurs over 16 months in one car and longer in another so I figure its been in the crankcase too long so I change it out anyhow.

FWIW Chevron changed DELO 400 in the past 6 months but I still buy it for the 617's. To my nose it smells like it has less additives in it, maybe are the oil co's are trying to give more for less.
I wish I had bought several cases of oil a few years ago before all the price increases.

My local dealer was selling the 5W40 ESP mobil 1 over a year ago. It is designed to be used with the bluetec systems.

I would not worry about using the new CJ-4 rated TDT oil in any diesel engine. It should perform at least as well as the older formula if not better. I also used to be skeptical about the recent shift away from ZDDP anti-wear chemistry, but the new oils are holding up well in the TDI PD engines and those engines are probably as self-destructive as they get. Yes, some additives are reduced, but there's a new generation of cleaner additives that take their place. By all means do a UOA if you're concerned, but I'd at least give the new formulation a try. I know I will if the CI-4+ formula isn't available the next time I do an oil change.

Start dreading.
 

I'm pretty sure the last time I was down at my Amsoil guy he told me the 5w40 was CJ-4 rated. He said he would not use it in my '98 CTD, but to stick with the 15W40 that is not CJ-4 rated.

I just bought 2 gallons of the old 5W40 TDT oil at Joe's. Joe's is a small chain of 30 stores in Idaho, Oregon and Washington. It was $21.99 a gallon. I think that is about what Walmart charges and I didn't have to go to Walmart.:)

Say, do you have an URL for Joe's? All I could find is Joe's Sports... didn't look like they'd carry motor oil, though. Any idea if there is a Boise location?

:)

Meridian and Nampa. http://www.joessports.com/home/index.jsp?clickid=hdr_logo_img

Check your email.

One of the things that forced reformulation of diesel oils is the ULSD. Oil had high TBN to deal with the sulfur in fuel before, but without the sulfur the additives were causing problems in diesel engines.

Other changes involve anything that can damage a catalytic converter, something that most oil companies didn't worry much about with diesel oils.

I do like the old Delvac 1, hope that the changes are updates and not ways to cheapen the oil, I'll be watching and reading.

That's the one, it used to be G.I. Joes. I think mine sells AMSoil too.

Yep, they dropped the G.I. last year. Something about them not selling military stuff for years.

And that is why I no longer use Mobil products....all Shell and Valvoline now. :D

I'll stick to Mobil, I like REAL synthetic oils ;)

Now I am pissed off.
 

Are we going to have to reformulate the damn oil before we fill the crankcase?

The problem is, most other synthetics aren't really synthetics, because they use Group III base stocks (basically, hydrocracked dino oil). Very few oils are true synthetics with Group IV/V base stocks. The "good" ones are Mobil-1, Amsoil, Red Line, and a few others... although I've been suspicious of Mobil's new lineup ever since they released their "Extended Peformance" stuff, and outside the USA some Mobil-1 products are a Group III oil. You can generally tell by the price... the good stuff ain't cheap, often $6-$9 per quart.

Most of the commonly available, claimed "synthetics" really aren't... for example Valvoline, Rotella Syn, Penzoil, Castrol, Quaker State, etc are all Group III oils. While they are better than dino oil, they don't tolerate extended drain intervals nearly as well as Group IV/V oils. You will also notice that oil consumption will suddenly increase at a certain point with the Group III stuff. In my cars (when I tried Rotella Syn for a while) that was around the 5-6kmi point. Other people have reported the same thing... notably, the late Marshall Booth had an identical experience with Castrol SynTec. WIth Delvac-1, there was no change in consumption all the way to my 10k change interval. Marshall had the same results as well after switching back to M-1/D-1.

YMMV, etc...

:shutup:

Dave, you surely know that the reason is increasing pollution regulations.

The changes are to protect particulate filters, and of course ESP means "emissions system protection."

I think in the UK there's a company that sells motor oil for classic car owners that believe their's should continue to run on the stuff that was current at the time the car was built, but that's never been the thought in the USA.

Just like fuel and motor oil don't need sulphur, they don't really need the soot producers, either, and oils are just getting better. Don't be tired, be happy.

Rotella synthetic 5W40 is $16.88 a gallon at Wally Mart...

http://www.imakenews.com/rotella/e_article000373489.cfm?x=b11,0,w

Yep, I know it's emissions related. But they're generally pulling additives that our engines like. And I'm not so sure the newer formulas can handle the soot load that our older, indirect-injection engines produce. The newer cars make far less soot, so the new oils don't need to deal with it. And they can't have certain oil additives which could plug the fancy new particulate traps. You'll notice that the TBN of the new D-1 ESP is lower than the previous formula... and lower TBN is never a good thing, IMO.


BTW, check out this M-1 Product Guide (PDF file). There is a note on M-1 TDT that says it will be reformulated in early 2008 to meet CJ-4 specs, and phosphorus will be reduced to "0.11"... but it doesn't explain how "0.11" relates to the previous phosphorus level of 1300 ppm. Fortunately I had saved an older version, which makes it appear that "0.11" may indicate 1100 ppm.

Rotella Syn is not a true synthetic... go back and read post #14 for details.

Then Shell is lieing on their site...

http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=rotella-en&FC2=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/products/zzz_lhn.html&FC3=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/products/product_rotellasynth.html


ROTELLA® T Synthetic

Fully synthetic heavy-duty engine oil.



Product Description



Shell Rotella® T Synthetic SAE 5W-40 is a fully synthetic heavy-duty diesel and gasoline engine oil developed especially to meet the requirements of North American driving.



The exclusive Shell formulation offers users exceptional performance and protection in combination with enhanced fuel economy potential over conventional 15W-40 motor oils. This synthetic multigrade engine oil meets the service requirements of virtually all four cycle diesel and many gasoline engine manufacturers.



Applications

Recommended for new and older diesel- and gasoline-powered vehicles, including personal vehicles and commercial vehicles such as on-road, off-the-road, truck rental, pickups, delivery, utility, and school bus fleetsMeets or exceeds the diesel engine requirements of API CI-4 PLUS, Cummins CES 20078, Detroit Diesel, John Deere, Dodge, Ford, GM, International, Mack EO-N Premium Plus 03, Volvo and others; For gasoline engines, it exceeds API SL.
Features/Benefits



Formulated for multipurpose use, simplifying inventory needsOutstanding wear protection and bearing corrosion control helps maximize engine lifeHelps speed cold starts even with low winter temperaturesEnhanced oxidation stability and soot control, especially at higher temperatures, aids service lifeImproved fuel economy – when compared to conventional SAE 15W-40 oilsProduct is warranted against defect and has performance which meets or exceeds virtually all equipment manufacturer’s engine oil warranty requirements.
Approvals and Recommendations

API CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF-4, CFAPI SL, SJ, SHCummins CES 20078, 20076, 20071Detroit Diesel 7SE 270Mack EO-N Premium Plus ’03, EO-N, EO-M PlusVolvo VDS 2

The newer engines supposedly dump more soot into the oil because of higher EGR rates, at least that's what I've been reading. Either way CJ-4 is supposed to handle soot and heat better than any previous API standard. Lower TBN is no problem because we now have ULSD. It was the relatively high sulphur in diesel fuel that previously required high TBN.

The dealer has had these ESP oils for a year now, my understanding is that they have less zinc in them to keep all that emissions equipment on the new CDI's and Cummins happy.

Now I have heard of these new oils ruining cams on pretty pumped big block Chevy's, will this be a problem with our engines? I don't know if it will because those engines usualy have pretty heavy valve springs.

http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/ima..._qt_350pxh.jpg

I'll probably just buy a case of this.

Yes they are. As are most of the other manufacturers. Any way you slice it, modified dyno oil ain't a true synthetic, and the performance is significantly below the Mobil / Amsoil / Red Line products.

Do you really think that stuff costing $17/gal is going to be identical to stuff costing $24-$36 per gallon? There's a reason it's so much cheaper. Do some research on the topic, you'll find out that when the marketing monkeys use the term "synthetic" they use it VERY loosely.

For an excellent summary of this topic, click this link. The only error is he states Mobile (sic) oils are Group III, which is (or at least was! incorrect. Here's a short excerpt:

Group III synthetic oils only use about 12% synthetic base stocks. The rest is hyrdocracked petroleum base stocks. For major oil companies who have their money in crude oil refining, the word "synthetic" is merely a marketing term. It does not mean 100%, but just that a percentage of synthetic base stock goes into their product.

I'm not so sure about the higher EGR rates, and soot production, in the newer engines... but I don't have any data to prove it either way. But I would expect far lower soot with the newer direct-injection diesels, at least compared to our indirect injection (OM61x / OM60x) engines.

I had been using M-1 15W-50 EP for the last couple of changes and I have not been happy with the performance overall. I was thinking "no problem, I'll just go back to D-1"... but I'm also not interested in being the guinea pig for the yet ANOTHER new reformulation.

Hattie, that AFL stuff has an even lower TBN! The old D-1 was, IIRC, about 12. The new M-1 TDT is 10.7, and I can't find a spec for the new D-1 ESP. But the Amsoil Euro 5W-40 is 8.0, yikes. Then again, Amsoil's normal DEO is also 8.0 now. The 15W-40 AME "heavy duty" stuff is still 12.1, which is more what I'm looking for. Even with ULSD, the higher the TBN, the longer you can safely extend the drain interval.

Although I like Amsoil's products, and they are a bit cheaper than Red Line, I still dislike Amsoil's marketing methods... and also that they no longer offer the older Dex-II & Dex-III ATF formulas (something Red Line still does offer). When I disagree or dislike what a particular company is doing with their products or marketing, all I can do is vote with my dollars and buy something else. In this case, it may end up being Red Line. I may contact Red Line and ask what the TBN numbers are, just out of curiousity, since they're not published in their tech specs.

:nuke:

I think for $10.88 a gallon, I'll just stick with the Rotella 15/40. It's been in my engine thru the 1st & 2nd owners..

That's fine stuff, just don't let it go for more than 3-5kmi... one of the advantages of Group IV/V synthetics is the ability to go 10-20kmi between changes. Dino oil can't deal with the extended drain intervals. But it's not a problem if you don't mind changing every 3k.

:)

For one of my UOA's of Red Line 5W40 from my Jetta I paid for the TBN test. The original TBN was 7 and after 5K miles it dropped to 5.3. All the TBN does is counter acids from combustion and prevent rust. It has nothing to do with anti-wear. As long as you have a sufficient TBN, more is not better.

This is API's official word on the CJ-4 oil standard:

True. But it does have an impact on extended drains. You can extend the drain interval based on two main limits... amount of soot suspended (until you reach the limit of what the oil can suspend... typically under 2% is preferred), and also until the TBN drops to roughly half of the original level. A higher TBN should allow longer intervals, but it will vary with every engine. Here's a good comment from Caterpillar:

TBN is a measure of an oil’s ability to neutralize sulfur byproducts. For older precombustion chamber diesel engines, use an API CF-4, CG-4 or CF class oil that has a minimum TBN equal to twenty times the fuel’s sulfur level. Keep the normal operating temperature in your cooling system above 180 degrees F (74 degrees C). This will limit the condensation of sulfur compound vapors that are formed during the combustion process on cylinder liner walls and the associated corrosive damage. If you don’t know the fuel’s sulfur content, use an oil with the highest TBN available of the correct API class. Consider using a reliable oil analysis service to define the oil drain interval.

Also check out pages 9-11 of this Cat PDF with some more info on TBN and how it relates to sulfur content.

Soot and TBN are important but I think the best way to establish a drain interval is by watching the wear rate, particularly in terms of iron, lead and aluminum. As long as the wear rate is good, the soot % is secondary info. Personally I don't like to push the limits too much and I'd rather do an oil change sooner than later.

When I was running RedLine in my Cat, the TBN was either 12 or 14.

TBN is no longer your friend though, too much is bad now that the sulfur is lowered, it has been discussed ad nauseum on other sites.

Also, not all Amsoil oils are class IV / class V synthetics. They too started re-formulating and adding part-synthetic as well as class III synthetics to compete with the price-point of major-brand lower synthetics.

The soot is secondary as long as the % is under 2%. When it exceeds what the oil can suspend, and the soot starts to fall out of suspension, it can cause significantly increased wear. Finding out what the soot limits of a particular oil are can be a challenge... I believe Marshall Booth had some internal contacts at Mobil, and was able to find out that Mobil-1 was ok up to 2%, and Delvac up to about 4%... although he also said Mercedes had a flat 2% limit for engines with hydraulic lifters. (I never saw any documentation on that topic, though.)

FWIW, my soot level is usually around 1% in 10kmi. I should scan one of my oil analysis reports.

I think as long as TBN is not over 12-14, it should be fine, even with ULSD.

And you are correct, Amsoil is now also offering Group III products in the race to the bottom of the quality barrel and price points. I also found this little gem about M-1, which I have strongly suspected, but can't yet prove:

"Mobil 1 no longer has the "100% Synthetic" label on the bottles as they have switched to lower priced Group III base stocks. Per the FTC, you can say "Full Synthetic" without an ounce of PAO manmade synthetic base stocks. But you can't label them as 100% unless they truly are."

That does clarify the difference between "Fully" and "100%" synthetic. Buyer beware...! Red Line is looking better, but I want to talk to their tech department first. BTW, this page has a neat chart near the bottom showing the differences between Groups I - V.

:o

How much does Redline cost vs D1 and Amsoil?

I may just use the 5w40 ESP since I can get it cheaper at the dealer.

I use the 5w40 Rotella Synthetic, but I also change the oil every 4k (for all our cars)....so its not an issue. $16.24 a gallon at walmart....nice and cheap. The mobil stuff was way too expensive, and even running it 5k the oil looked way too thick when I drained it, so I stopped that practice quick. My car seems to like the "fake synthetic" just fine....and it does certainly flow better at very low temps, which I am most interested in....otherwise I'd probably run 15w40 dino if I lived in a hot climate.

Red Line is about $8-$9 per quart, probably best to purchase locally, due to the relatively high shipping cost. Here's link to the gallons, and a link to the quarts of 15W-40 diesel oil, at Amazon. While they do have a 5W-40 oil, it's not their primary diesel oil.

How much is the 5W-40 ESP (I assume the "Formula M") at the dealer?

Yes, the Delvac is expensive, but at $16/gallon for 4,000 miles... in 10,000 miles, that's $48/gallon. I pay ~$24/gallon for the D-1 and change at 10k, so you're paying twice as much, and spending more time under your car that could better be spent sitting in front a computer typing on some silly car forum. (kidding!) But seriously, the extended drain intervals do save $$$. I get oil analysis each time (not necessary, but I'm anal) and it shows I could easily go to 15kmi intervals if I wanted, but that would be nearly 24 months so I change at 10k anyway.

:)

My CDI has a factory oil change interval of 13k miles... so I'm presuming they've got the soot, etc down on the newer engines. :D

I don't have a 2007+ engine so I don't need the ESP, but if Europe has been using it around 2005 I'll be much more comfortable using it. Especially since I've heard, as has been mentioned, about the removal of beneficial compounds for older engines.

How often does this guy update his website? http://www.whnet.com/4x4/oil.html If MB requires me to use a 229.95 oil, if they meet the spec I shouldn't necessarily have to worry about it going the 13k miles since it meets the spec? Haven't owned the car long enough to really get into the details yet... so this is a well timed thread! :cool:

At least my transmission fluid is an easy decision.... :rolleyes: Its the ultra expensive MB fluid. I think its over $10 a quart. :eek:

Not possible, my soot levels were too high at even 5k on Mobil 1 when I had an anlysis done. Are you doing this on a 616/617? or a 601/602/6033/606? Those engines run a lot cleaner. Mine is a 617.

And, I like changing the oil! :D It only takes like 20 mins anyways.

Dave is an OM60x kinda guy ;)

Yeah I just looked at his profile and saw that. :D

I'm a 617 guy who is open to "trying out" a 60x. :D

ELF/Total oil is popular around here.


at SG Imports, they're around $25/Gal.

HMM I wonder..
 

Does anyone know if all this has anything to do with the removal of ZDDP?

ALSO, back in the early 1990s Mobil had a class action case with piston engine aircraft owners following damage linked to poor oil chemistry.

I started going to extended drain for a different reason in my CAT: 5gallons of used oil doesn't do the environment any good, even recycling it.

As John said, yup, I'm an OM602/603 kinda guy. And when running well, the 60x do generate less soot. My departed OM617 generated noticeably more... roughly 1% per 3000 miles, but it varied a lot each time. And that was with the EGR disabled. (!)

Both my 603 engines have been pretty consistent at 1% per 10,000 miles with EGR disabled. My 602 had been approx 1% per 3000 with EGR, but I just killed the EGR, and I'm very curious what the next oil analysis looks like (gotta wait a while though... another 8kmi before it's due for a change.)

:scholar:

Jeff, that is another of many reasons why I choose to do extended drain intervals, which requires the use of good Group IV/V oils...

:stuart:

Thats not to bad, I was getting some wicked deals before because the dealer had about 3 cases of old D1 gallons in the back. I ain't about to post them online because I bet some of thoes guys read these boards. Anyway I think sticker is like $25 a gallon, not sure I'll find out at some point though.

Dave, how is one to do a oil analysis?

Send a sample to these guys:

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/