pushed in cylinder sleeve, how long till another blown head gasket?
 

Short version:

#4 sleeve on a 260,000 mile OMM617.951 is pushed 14 thousandths too far into the block. It has been this way for at least 3,500 miles but eventually an unfortunate major overheating caused the head gasket to blow around it. Milling the head down would leave the piston overlap at .042", which is 7 thousandths over the MB tolerance. Options are:

A: Replace head gasket for an additional $590 and hope it lasts for a long time.

B: New engine for around $1000 (seems the best to me, although there are some ifs involved)

C: Mill down block as much as possible and cut the gap to 7 thousandths and new head gasket. Don't know how much this would cost.

What do you guys think?

Longer Version:

I have a 1984 300SD with 260,000 miles. Not that long ago I was driving it and the engine temperature gauge stopped working. I didn't thing too much of it but a few hundred miles later the thermostat stuck and it started overheating. I didn't know this was happening till the coolant hose broke and it started smelling like burning coolant in the car. long story short, massively overheated and the head gasket ended up blown.

I took it to a shop and they tore into it. They discovered a relatively new head gasket, although how new he wasn't sure. I had put at least 3,500 mile on it is all I know. They also discovered that the #4 piston sleeve was pushed in to the block 0.014" too far. Apparently in a past life this sleeve had been installed incorrectly, or somehow pushed in by something else. My mechanic and I couldn't really figure out how that could have happened. Getting the top resurfaced down 14 thousandths so that the sleeve is flush again will put the piston overlap 7 thousandths over MB's specified range of acceptable values so that isn't really an option. I'm $300 into the head gasket replacement already. My options are below:

1: continue with the head gasket for another $590 and hope for the best. Who knows how long it would last without overheating the engine again?

2: I may have a line on another engine for $1100 with 100,000 miles less on it then mine. I could then possibly sell my current engine's turbo and manifold locally for at least $300 and install the new engine. This seems like my best option, and I may be able to find someone who could help me install it myself thereby saving shop time. This seems like the best option

3: Mill the block down 7 thousandths for who knows how much more money and do #1

Anyone have any experience with this? What do you think I should do?

Is it not possible to pull and replace the sleeve? Just a thought...

Have you given any thought to replacing the liner on that cylinder?

HAHA - beat you to it! ;)

What you are describing will require pulling the motor anyway, so the only logical thing is to replace the sleeve and mill it flush as it was supposed to be in the first place.

I don't know how you would do this without working at it.

The ring is cut on the bottom of the bore at the factory to stop the sleeve from going too deep and the sleeves are a little too long so you have to push them in and then deck the block so they are all exactly flush with the block.

It is probably cheaper to buy a used motor but this one should have all new parts in it right? If so it should be worth fixing. The person who put in the sleeve wrong should be paying for the fix.

Good luck.

Tom W

Betcha I know how. They probably didn't get it pressed all the way to the bottom of the bore (like maybe it needed to go in another .0014") and then they decked it. Then over time and due to compression, friction, heat, etc. it finally dropped that last .0014" on its own....

That sounds possible but....

I don't see how the sleeve could walk down the bore.

Maybe someone can say if thats possible or not.

Tom W

Yeah, the car has an interesting past. As far as I know it was driven by one owner in Texas for almost all of those miles then traded against an outstanding debt to a guy here in Montana, where it sat for a few years before making it to me. I wonder if it's worth trying to figure out who installed the cylinder sleeves?

I guess this means it was rebuilt, which would have been good news to me if not for the other thing. . .

Seems unlikely that it would slip down, but maybe the extreme temperatures of me overheating it and a CTE mismatch allowed this to happen? Can't really come up with any other explanation except for the sleeve being way too short in the first place.

couldn't you try to freeze the sleeve with liquid nitrogen to shrink it then try to pull it up to place. Its worth a try if you are going to have to rebuild it anyways. Just make sure the piston is at BDC and then pore the liquid nitrogen in, the sleeve should shrink and you should be able to move it. If the shrinks to much and gets stuck to the piston then turn the engine and the sleeve should move up. This sounds like a possible solution. I am not 100% sure whether it will work but its at least worth a shot.

for my money, I'd put in a new sleeve, and have it correctly pressed in all the way to the stop, and properly milled flush with the deck.

yep.

And while its apart I would have the clearance on the bearings checked. It sounds as if it was built by someone who didn't know what they're doing.

If the work was done before you got the car you will probably have a tough time collecting anything from the offending party, no matter how right that might be.

Tom W

Yes you did. And I agree with you idea.

Always a good feeling when you float an idea and someone who knows more than you seconds it :thumbup:

replace head gasket for an additional $590 and hope it lasts for a long time.

Uh... 590$?!> what is it made out of spotted owl?

Shop labor. I didn't have the time, space, equipment or knowledge to do it myself. I don't have any money either now that I think about it. . . .

Getting a new sleeve installed and milled would cost a lot more then the replacement engine and installation.

Maybe we know the same thing!
I know I have learned a lot from this forum and the members.

Probably a crazy idea, but would it possibly work to put in TWO head gaskets - one on top of the other, and maybe torque the headbolts an extra 5 ft/lbs?

I can't think of much else unless you could get someone with a machine shop to machine you a steel shim ring the exact ID and OD of the liner and .0014" thick - though you might even want it to be .0015" thick for a little extra sealing pressure against the gasket & head.

Both crazy ideas, I know, but that's about all I can think of...

jparker
 

i sure would like to see some pictures of that cylinder because there would have to be a break between the top of the sleeve where the bore is machined for the sleeve land(sorta looks like a hat rim ,look at sleeve design in the manual) .
there is no normal groove at the bottom of the bore in a 617 engine,for holding the sleeve,and if some one installed a straight sleeve the head gasket couldnt possible hold because the gasket seals to the top hat of the sleeve.
larry perkins lou ky

How about a copper headgasket?

Even if it did seal properly it would lower your compression.
The shim idea has better possibilites but something that thin might esily burn.

Put a new engine in.

Yes. Find out how many miles ago it was installed. If many, then it might well go many more with a new gasket. In other words, perhaps it was the added heat that caused the gasket to fail.

If it happend as a result of the overheating, then it wasn't driven too much afterwards. Would the carbon deposits (or lack of) at the top edge of the liner indicate whether this is what happened?

Having the liner a bit low means the gasket isn't getting the normal surface for sealing. But.. if it's been that way for a bunch of miles, I'd put a new gasket on and hope for the best.

Or you could put in a used engine, which will have some new set of unknown issues, and see if it was the better expense. Just.. keep the old engine for a little while in case you decide the replacement was worse than fixing yours.

Oh.. and broken temp sensors don't cause vehicles to overheat. You need to figure out why that happened too before deciding to fix or replace.

More info and pictures
 

I got a Carfax report on it and it didn't have any service records at all, and nothing from the car's previous life in texas except for the loan it was originally bought with.

I went to the shop today and took a bunch of pictures of the depressed sleeve and gasket, they can be seen Here
http://picasaweb.google.com/parkerjohntwo/HeadGasket

I could probably find a place/way to make a shim. Also, I miswrote earlier at some point, it's 14 thousandths of an inch or .014".

As for the sleeve moving when It overheated, I don't think that was the case. The gasket has some kind of metal that compresses plastically (unrecoverable) to seal the cylinders and it had attempted to fill the gap when it was installed, meaning the cylinder sleeve was low when it was installed.

According to the mechanic the gasket looks pretty new. There is also some faint polishing marks on the block that may indicate it having been polished at some point. I included pictures of it's numbering in the album. It also appeared to me that the gasket blew on a different cylinder then the one with the depressed sleeve too but I don't really know what to look for as far as that goes. There are pictures of all this stuff in the above link.

patbob - The temperature sensor didn't have anything to do with overheating, it was a stuck thermostat that did that. The broken temperature sensor just made so I didn't know it was overheating till coolant started wafting into the cab.


Larry - I don't have a shop manual for the car (yet) when you say it's like a hat I'm picturing an upside-down top hat, is that what you are saying?
http://picasaweb.google.com/parkerjo...61832535626562

Just curious. What did you choose to do? Did you replace the gasket, and is it still holding? I'm not certain about your particular engine, but most Mercedes diesels have wet liners, so coolant may get past. Most would say that slipped cylinder linings would mark the engine's end of service, so I'm curious how you fared....

All the benz diesels I have seen are dry liners, including the 616 and 617.

I agree that the sleeve was probably put in short & then surfaced off. Just heating & cooling over time would allow it to move down. No point in trying to lift it, as it will just move down again. A new sleeve or motor change are the best options.

Answer
 

There is only one way to correct this issue = replace the sleeve...







Have a great day.

Can you remove the oil pan from the bottom with the engine in place on a 617? Then remove the head and have clear access to remove the piston then the sleeve?

I am asking this question because on a Citroen, you CAN replace the sleeve with the engine in the car in all cars from 1934-1999 except the 2 cylinder A-series (2CV, AMI and Dyane). The shape of the oil pan makes it possible but it's not easy, like changing the oil.

I believe all OM6's are dry. Some OM3's are dry and some are wet.

These are some wet benz diesels:

OM346
OM401
OM402
OM403
OM404
OM407
OM409
OM421
OM422
OM423
OM424
OM441
OM442
OM443
OM444
OM427
OM429
OM447

I agree with all of you that the best solution is a new block or an new liner (pushing back the slipped liner will see the same problem again). But, I was hoping jparker164 would tell us what he did. I'm curious if he simply replaced the gasket, and how long the gasket is holding, if at all.

JB Weld!

I joke. Seriously.

I think rcouts has the simplest idea for a quick fix. A 15 thou steel shim could be cut from a piece of shim, no big deal, its of the shelf & a pair of good sharp scissors would cut it like paper. It would need to exactly fit on top of the liner. then just put a new gasket on.

I have to say that this is probably not a good idea. The ID of a liner is a bit smaller than the diameter of the gasket opening. So, you'll always have a face of this ring "shim" that's exposed to combustion (not just the edge). This will allow the shim to bend and eventually flake off.

A 0.014" gap is about 0.3mm. That's a fairly thick chuck of metal to fall into the combustion chamber.

In addition, any shim applied, especially the thicker it is, will not expand and contract with the cylinder wall, so 700-1000 psi of combustion will bust the "ring shim" apart, and much bigger pieces will fall into the chamber.

The only practical non-replacement method seems to be to weld a similar material on and hone it. But, that needs the block to come out, in which case you can just replace the lining.

Btw, this lining thing is really silly. Mercedes made the engines so that the liner is replaceable, but they didn't bother to put a lip at the bottom of the cylinder or a flange at the top of the liner to keep the liner in place. I've heard that some diesels have stops at the bottom, but this still allows the liner to drop an 1/8 inch or so. So, by the time you pull the block to replace the liner, you could for the same price just get a low-mileage used engine--which then comes with it's own unknowns!

I have to say that this liner design is a design flaw. It doesn't happen as often as Land Rovers and Harley CVO's, but still a weak point in Mercedes engines, diesel or gas.

Such a shim would be no more likely to end up in the cylinder than a piece of gasket. I know of motors that have shims like that for head gaskets. A steel shim will not burn away. The CI head will burn first. The same applies for expansion & contraction, the gasket is not falling to pieces in a motor.
It looks like people are jumping to blame design for what is very poor workmanship when the liner was fitted.
I see the OP has not replied in a long time. I guess he just replaced the gasket & sold the car, thats probably what the last owner had done.

I am not familliar with these engines nor have I had one apart but I am familliar with large diesels. Here is my $0.02 based on the engines I work on.

Large truck engines are commonly shimmed under the liners. If a liner protrudes too far, the counter bore is cut down. If the liner sits too low in the counter bore, it is shimmed back up into spec.

If the liner rests in a counter bore, the liner could be shimmed. The shim would need to be placed under the lip of the liner. Pull the liner out, cut the shim and reinstall. Shim stock is readilly available at tool supply stores.

Could the liner be pulled out with the engine still in the vehicle? Google "cylinder liner puller" and see if one of those would work for you.

Yes, after seeing his posts, I noticed he has disappeared since the new engine. I emailed him, but I haven't gotten a response. Maybe he dumped this and got a Lexus.

The shim is very different from a soft MLS gasket.

For a relatively "flat" shim, it will be exposed to combustion pressure because the gasket hole diameter is greater than the linder's ID. This thin shim will eventually clog with carbon, and will be wedged up and flake off.

For a relatively thick "ring" shim, it will be a dissimilar material, and therefore expand at different rate and extent. The pressures of combustion will eventually break the ring, and it will fall into the cylinder.

However, a MLS gasket is a composite that is malleable, and its exposed edge of the hole will absorb the pressures. It's a lot like a twig versus a un-cooked spaghetti noodle. The twig will bend, but the noodle will break.

A shim UNDER the liner would be fine. But, if you can get a shim there, then you've already pulled the liner out. As for pulling the liner out, from what I know, even though these engines are supposed to have replaceable liners for its benefits (no reboring), there are very few people who will actually do them.

I know that whunter has this (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=276792), but actual success DIY stories?

And then, there's the task of putting the liner in. At the factory, I believe the blocks are placed in a HOT oven, and very COLD liners are slipped in.

A similar trick I suppose would be to torch the cylinder walls, and slip in a liner that's been bathing in dry ice. But, you've got one shot to do this on a $250 liner, and if it binds half way, oh boy.

Has anyone seen a DIY success story on a Mercedes liner replacement?

jsap,
Are you expressing a personal opinion or do you have formal qualifications in machine design (eg Professional Engineer)?
Liners do not cost $250 each.
It is common when rebuilding these motors to replace liners & not pistons as is the case with many dry liner motors. Pressing dry liners is a common practice in motor rebuilding. I have seen blocks without liners bored & dry liners installed.
Your comments about gaskets, twigs & noodles lacks technical substance. I have a motor here that has operated for many thousands of hours with such a shim on top of a liner.

No, I'm not a PE. But, I have other qualifications that allows me to supervise PE's, and hundreds of them from all disciplines. Let's just say, machine shops that will do a liner replacement on a MB gas engine is not common (I know I'm in the diesel section). And, doing it while in the car is even more rare. But, if you ARE one of those rare shops that can do it, then good for you.

Here's what I said: By the time you've found a machine shop who can replace your liner (btw, a Mercedes liner (OEM) will cost the consumer $250, unless you get aftermarket), remove the engine, take the heads off, etc., you can replace your engine with a low-mileage engine for less money.

So, if you think that my comment that the liner design in the MB engines are a weak point is unwarranted, then good for you. I know for a fact that liners can be designed in a way that will not slip, over-heating, stuck pistons, or whatever.

Btw, what's your qualification? Also, what are the dimensions of your shim? Can you provide pictures of it with the gasket on top, prior to head installation?

Also, I want to hear jparker164's story.

jsap,
I have an Engineering degree from Adelaide University ( have previously posted a copy of my degree on this forum), over 30 years experience as a Professional Engineer (not a trade certificate & trade experience), while working in the USA previously I was a registered Professional Engineer in the state of Texas.

I gather from your comments that you do not have formal Professional Engineering qualifications & perform an administrative roll. If you are in the diesel section of a machine shop as you say you are, it is highly unlikely that you would have "hundreds of PE's" working there, maybe a handful of fitters & turners. I notice interestingly that you dont actually say you are supervising "hundreds of PE's, instead just infer it.

I dont work in a diesel shop, I have a consulting engineering biz (yes I employ a number of professional engineers) & also own a Civil engineering contract biz.

Cant give you a pic of the shim as the motor is assembled. I am sure that others who have worked on motors from EM equipment will know what I am talking about.

jparker64 appeared to have replaced the motor.

Others on this forum have replaced liners in the past & commented about it.
Only a fool would bother with an OEM liner ~ a fool & his money are soon parted!!

Now what is this qualification that you have?

I wait for an answer in anticipation!!

layback, I'm multi ivy and oxbridge. I said I'm in the diesel section of this forum. I am not blue collar. Prior to retirement, I managed multi-billion dollar projects that took 10 to 20 years for gov and private institutions, during which I supervised hundreds of engineers.

Enough pissing. I can see you're the prickly type. Save your time and give me the material used, the dimensions of the shim (thickness, ID delta from linder ID and gasket opening), so you can teach me under what conditions your shim supposedly survived.

Enough about your fool business. Your diesel is not alu-sil, my money is mine, and if you bought a Mercedes, you've thrown enough money away. Provide links to DIY methods and results. If you're not going to be generous, then shut it. All I wanted to know was how jparker fared. Of course, it's cheaper to replace the block then to install a liner. Can you still do the math?

question: what if you were to stack two cylinder head gaskets on top of each other? you know, how some guys put spacers of different thicknesses under carburetors...

woah, woah, woah. i see i've just stepped into a MAJOR battle without even reading through the whole thread.

guys...advice: take three steps BACK from this thread. fists WILL fly. Chuck Norris WILL be involved.

I thought about this a while back, but there's a few problems with this.

Every engine is different, depending on wet vs dry. But, the one problem with open decks is that surface area of the top of the cylinder to the head gasket sufficient to contain the combustion pressure, which can run as high as 1000 psi on naturally aspirated engines, is not very much.

With a slipped liner, the surface area becomes half on an open deck design. In actually, though, because the preformed MLS head gasket opening is the same for the various group sizes of the cylinders for even the same engine, and the actual area of the contact can be 1 mm less in web width than the potential 6mm (cylinder wall + liner thickness), so the surface area might be about 70% of the original. Instead of a 5mm width, you'll have about 3.5mm.

Doubling up on the MLS gasket doesn't really help contain the pressure. The pressure loss is perpendicular to the cylinder axis, from within the cylinder to the adjacent coolant. Adding more gasket thickness under the head simply allows more cushiness for the pressure to escape. Rather, reducing the thickness would be better, but MLS gaskets are thick for the reasons that it much provide vibration resistance, water jacket, heat cycles of the various metal parts, and so on.

The other things about adding another MLS gasket is that it increases the volume of the chamber (changing the compression ratio), the spark plug electrode position, and misalignment of the intake manifold (if you have a V configuration). Also, it's difficult to know how much to turn the Torque Tighten to Turn (TTT) bolts.

Long story short, the gasket depth cannot really be changed on some engines.

May I quietly and politely ask what the cost of replacing 5 dry liners on a OM617 would cost in a machine shop where you are?

I gather the OEM liners would be $1250 with out fitting. Is that correct?

I only ask as it may be a choice I may need to make in the future.

Army, unfortunately, I don't have a quote for diesel engines. Mine is gas, but I came here just because I wanted to know how jparker fared.

I do know, however, that many machinists have done liner replacements on Mercedes diesels.

The cost starts with labor: pulling the engine. Once you've pulled it, then some machinists will not warranty the work unless they inspect the entire engine and approve the condition as well perform the work they recommend. So you'll start wracking up costs for parts and labor for the block and heads.

In the end, it's often cheaper to replace the entire engine. The wrecking yard or dismantler will often trade your broken engine for a low-mileage used one for about $1000 to $2000. They'll often give you compression numbers on the cylinders as proof that the engine is alright, but it's really a gamble.

My recommendation is to interview as many machinists as possible. Eventually, you'll find a couple of tiers of costs. And look into used engines, as well. Weigh the costs and risks, and go from there. Either way, you'll probably have to remove the engine, so there's really little difference in that respect.

The OEM liners for your OM617 might be cheaper. Mine is pricey because it's silicone crystal aluminum, but you can get aftermarket for them too. You could try aftermarket for yours from reading other people's comments and feedback. For diesel, from talking to machinists and mechanics around here, they've done dozens of them, already have tools for them, etc.... But for gas, they seem to scratch their heads, and I only got a number of a guy who someone knew ten years ago who used to do gassers near the Mexico border.

Admittedly, I haven't called everyone in town, but if you're serious about it, then a few phone calls start to give you an idea pretty quickly.

Good luck.

The sleeves on a 616 cost 42.99 each from fastlane. I have pressed them out personally in my favorite machinist's shop. It does not take long if you have a 20 ton press. It takes a lot of pressure to get them out, I always wonder if the sleeve is going to come out or the block explode, but the sleeves always come out. Of course the real work is assembling and disassembling the motor. If I had them do it for me I suspect they would charge me about 30 or 40 per cylinder labor, not including disassembling and reassembling the motor.

Sleeving a gas motor is no big whup either, you have to overbore it and leave a lip at the bottom, then install an appropriate diameter sleeve and hone to fit your piston. I imagine they would charge 100 to 150 per cylinder if you took the bare block in with a piston to hone to.

Prior to installing the new sleeves he puts them in the fridge for a while, I believe.;)

Thanks for the tips folks (and sorry to thread jack - but it seems like the "owner" is AWOL). I have the engine in bits at the moment and I'm unsure about some vertical scratches on the bores... I'll ask the chap at the machine shop to see what he thinks.

Yeah here's a link for a cylinder sleeve on Fastlane for a OM617

http://catalog.peachparts.com/ShopByVehicle.epc?q=1981-Mercedes--Benz-300d-Engine--Mechanical&yearid=1981%40%401981&makeid=63%40%40MERCEDES+BENZ%40%40X&modelid=6188%3AED|10000132%3AMB C|1503%40%40300D&catid=240154%40%40Engine+Mechanical&subcatid=240180@@Cylinder+Sleeve&mode=PD Just under $43 a piece...

Army,
The key to it is to have good pistons to put in them. The piston diameters will vary as they are used. The liners need to be bored to suit each piston. Its not a good idea to try & hone each liner after fitting to the right diameter, you should get it bored.

ivy and oxbridge, I dont think so, maybe in your dreams.

:bsflag:

FWIW Larry Perkins and his Percedes had this same problem I believe. 350head on a 300 block. You should ask him if his gasket is still holding up.

My machinist bores the new sleeve to nearly the right size and then hones for the final fitting.