2008 CDI Limp Mode using B100
 

I'm pretty sure that my 2008 CDI read that the emissions were off while using some virgin B100, so the check engine light went on (no problem), but about 500 miles later it started going into "Limp Home Mode." Is there anyway to disconnect that sensor so I continue to use biodiesel without fear of knocking down to 40 mph on the freeway?:eek:

Have you checked or had it checked to determine what code it's throwing?

I'd be careful about running B100 right off the bat in a new, sophisticated car. Try ramping up from B5 to B20, etc... As far as I know, most manufacturers will only warrant blends of 5% or less.

08 would be a Bluetec right?

Why run bio in the cleanest burning diesel on the planet?

Why run B100 and void your warranty?

Get the codes read and report back. Probably will have something to do with the urea system....?

PS: What does VIRGIN Bio mean to you? Commercially prepared? Homebrew? Straight veggie oil?

*edit* - BTW, limp home mode is generally a trans fault where the trans puts inself into second and reverse gears only. I'm guessing you've been burning veggie oil or something having a higher viscosity than D2 tht has clogged your fuel filter or injection system reducing its ability to provide sufficient fuel under higher demands. The codes will point toward the problem.

As much as I like the environment and the idea behind biodiesel, I would not under any circumstances run B100 in a brand new diesel like the Bluetec. Maybe B20 max but even that could void your warranty. B100 burns differently from petrodiesel and may not be compatible with the sophisticated emission equipment. It's also less stable oxidation-wise and may break down under the extremely high injection pressures. My advice would be to wait until we have synthetic, 2nd-generation biofuels before running them full strength in a high tech machine like the Bluetec. What does your owner's manual say about biodiesel? I bet it says to either use none or 5% max.

Congrats. You've just voided your warranty!
http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/...car-emblem.jpg

It's not Bluetec, so I'll check the codes - could be the B100 cleaned out the gunk in my fuel system and clogged the fuel filter.

Its a brand new car, there is no gunk in the tank.

What is VIRGIN B100?

Wow, what a mistake...

I know that the 5.9 Cummins Common rail engine isn't supposed to run B100. They recommend NO more than B20. Because of the extreme high pressure on the common rail (24,000psi) the bio can polymerize under pressure and ruin the fuel system clogging it up.
Sure hope you didn't do that!

It's not? Are you outside the US? It's helpful to list your location. In the US all MB CDI's 2007 or newer are Bluetec.

This from Popular Mechanics, July 2008: Their SUVs and crossovers, the five-seater ML-Class, the seven-passenger GL-Class and the six-seater (with an option for seven) R-Class, now get the option of a 50-state-legal diesel engine: the 320 CDI Bluetec.

This car came from Florida (with 8,000 miles on it) and did not have the Bluetec option, but it's still very touchy emissions-wise.

But, I appreciate all the information and will be looking into what's up.

I'd suggest draining your tank and replacing the fuel filter immediately. You've already proved B100 is too much. Continuing to burn it will possibly do further damage.

If it continues to run poorly, you should take it to the dealer to have it scanned with SDS. They can see MAF, 02 exhaust and other data which will help determine what was occuring at the time you lost power. OBDII scanners wont provide that info.

I don't see any non-Bluetec E-class diesels for the 2008 model year:
http://www.edmunds.com/mercedesbenz/eclass/2008/index.html#search=open.eq..amp.p.eq.cvehicledata%23%23-1%23%23-1%7E%7Enf12%7C%7C4d657263656465732d42656e7a

Which engine does yours have? The inline 6 or V6? What does it say on the trunk lid?

If you do decide to go to the dealer, make sure you don't have any bio in your tank, even traces of it. You warranty is intact unless they find out you ran bio or bad fuel.

Mercedes only recommends a maxium of B5 Biodiesel in any of there engines. I have seen a '07 GL320CDI completely shut down due to biodiesel. I wouldn't ruin such a nice car just to try to cut down on emissions....ULSD is clean enough!;)

*shakes head* nice way to void the warranty................................
I would believe you are up ***** creek without the paddle.

It may have decided you were not running ULSD? I agree with draining the tank and praying.

My god what misinformation are you guys giving this guy??!!!!

First off YOUR WARRANTY IS NOT VOIDED so dont worry about everyone saying it is. Second check the codes and see what they read, my thoughts on this is that the biodiesel may not be of the best quality if its giving you issues.

Check with your fuel supplier and ask them for the latest test sheets on the biodiesel they have for sale. What you have to look for is if it passed the ASTM minimum requirements. If it hasnt you probably have some bad bio in there.

If anything drain the tank fill it back up with diesel. The fuel test costs $800-1000 for them to determine what fuel was in the tank. Dealers arent going to spend that kinda money just to not honor the warranty repair TRUST ME. The warranty will still be honorable in that sense and they wont know anything unless you come out and tell them you were running biodiesel.

Let me assure you sir, if anything on that engine fails due to the use of B100 biodiesel, Mercedes-Benz will NOT cover it under warranty. There's a reason why it says "Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel Fuel Only" on the dash above the headlamp switch and on the fuel flap. The B5 approval was on OFFICIAL press release from Mercedes....although, I not sure its even worth it....

Yes but its not voided is my point. Second if he drains and refills the tank with regular diesel they wont know anything unless he tells them he was running biodiesel. The concentration of diesel will be much higher then whatever bio is in there that even if they did test the fuel it wont show up as even B1.



EDIT: Most dealers dont even want to do warranty work because service writers dont make any money off it. So they will try not to cover any warranty covered issue anyway, theyd rather try to charge you for the repair.

I see, I guess I see your point, but I still wouldn't chance it....Not on a brand new car...What makes you think Service Advisors don't get paid on warranty work...I have a really good friend who is a Benz Service Advisor, and trust me to him, hours are hours....In fact, according to him, with all the indie Benz shops, if it weren't for warranty work, he wouldn't have much of a paycheck (with the exception of the ones that come from indies who don't have any idea what they're doing, and there's plenty of those, he usually makes double time on those, he has to fix what they screwed up, then fix the original issue...:rolleyes:)

Not to get too off topic moxieman, maybe the dealer your buddy works for is an hourly based pay plan. I know of a few BMW dealers that are like that. The dealers ive worked for as a service writer gave me a $1400 draw and the rest was all commission, the more you screw the customer on repairs the more commission you make.

For example, customer comes in complaining about brakes squeaking. You know its a simple $5 job but you tell them you need all new rotors and brakes pads for $1500. CHA-CHING! commission baby!

But i like standard cars sales, it pays better :)

That's possible, btw, looked at ur pics 2 really nice examples, very nice job with the updates on the 300D!

That was for the old CDI's wasn't it? I don't know if that applies to the Bluetec. It's possible that no biodiesel is allowed whatsoever (though I'm pretty sure B5 wouldn't hurt it). We still don't know which engine the OP actually has. If it's really a 2008 it's definitely a Bluetec.

Here's a link to mercedes position on biodiesel circa January 2007.
http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/OEM%20Statements/20060608_Mercedes_Benz_bio_position.pdf
Doesn't sound to good for the OP, but as many have stated more info is needed regarding the actual fuel used and what the codes mean.

Gee, and all this time I thought your forum named was based on fuel preference, not character......:rolleyes:

Also, first you say it won't void the warranty.



Second you say they won't test the fuel.



Third you say that when you drain the Bio and fill it with diesel it won't be detectable if they test it.

Good example of "you get what you pay for" on this forum sometimes.

Hey the car business is a cut throat world. You either make your money and swim or make no money and sink. You really have to have no sympathy for others when it comes to your money in the car business. I mean thats pretty standard in all types of sales, Real Estate especially.

As far as the warranty goes. It wont void your warranty, they just wont honor it if its not within your warrantys limits. What im saying simply is this:

1: drain the fuel put in regular diesel

2: take it to the dealer keep your mouth shut about biodiesel

3: IF! and thats a pretty big if, they suspect wrong type of fuel was the culprit they may go ahead and test the fuel but its a $800-$1000 test to check. Most dealers rather reset the computer to take it out of limp mode instead of paying for the expensive test that may or may not be the problem.

If you bring the car in will a full tank of bio and they can physically see and smell it who needs to test it? They will instantly put the blame on the fuel. Then charge you for the repair instead of fix it under warranty.

Thanks for the doc. So basically up to 5% is allowed even in the Bluetecs.

If you have a 2008 E320 it is a Bluetec. Just hope that whatever you broke isn't expensive because you'll be paying for it, the warranty won't cover damage from non-approved fuels. Injectors aren't cheap, the particulate filter will run around $3000 and an engine will run close to $10,000 after labor and tax. They don't need to do just a tank dip to tell you've been running more than B5, they can tell by the combustion marks on the pistons and engine oil contents.

Mercedes' B5 press release covers all their diesel engines from all years, 1936-2009.

You have yet to explain what virgin B100 is. If its SVO, which is not biodiesel, you're likely going to get a big repair bill. If its actual retail or homebrew biodiesel then you may get lucky with only a few injectors and/or the particulate filter.

In my experience; high % biodiesel = dead common rail engine


Details:

'07 Dodge Cummins:
Coked injectors, two locked injectors resulting in hydrolock. Head blown off deck, snapped crank and bent connecting rods. Claims the turbo was damaged somehow as a result.

Fuel used: B80 (homebrew 2-stage acid/base from waste oil, vacuum flash-boiled to extract water)

'05 Jeep Liberty CRD:
Coked injectors, replaced twice. Would enter limp mode constantly after that. Cycling the vehicles ignition solved the problem for about 15 minutes then it would go back to reduced power.

Fuel used: B50 (homebrew 2-stage acid/base from waste oil, vacuum flash-boiled to extract water)

The verdict? As far as I've been informed:

Vegetable oils and subsequently Transesterfied Fatty Acids, whether methylated or ethylated have a specific gravity closer to that of Water and as a result, may EMULSIFY with water. See more.

Specific gravity is the ratio of the density of a given substance to the density of water. Less than 1 is lighter than water. More than 1 is heavier.

Diesel and Veggie oil:
0.82 - Typical sample of diesel fuel
0.92 - Vegetalbe oils
1.0 - Water

What this means? Waters lubricating properties pale in comparison to that of dewatered biodiesel or diesel fuel.

When emulsified, non-homogeneous molecules of water pass through the injections systems on these newer vehicles which have much lower tolerences for forign objects or fluid contaminations, the resulting "spot" of nonlubricity can cause serious damage to the internals of these parts resulting in, sometimes, catastrophic failures.

Another suspected culprit is glycerine, the tri-glyceride portion removed from tri-glyceride fatty-acids (Veggie oil) which in even the best homebrew setups the removal is only about 95% effective.

5% does not mean much to a 20+ year old diesel with mechanical injection pump. It does mean a lot to newer engines with 10x the operating pressures and higher combustion temperatures and pressures.

I've been told a centrifuge woul reduce the glycerine contine to about >1% but I haven't had a $15,000 centrifuge and a CDI/CRD engine to test it on :D

No, trust ME!. MBUSA will provide a fuel test kit to any dealer who suspects a fuel quality issue might be responsible for a drivability problem. As per MBUSA warranty policy, replacing any fuel system parts on the OM642 diesel engine requires pre-authorization from MBUSA, before a dealer can perform repairs under warranty. MBUSA is well aware of the bio-diesel issue, and has gone to great lengths to avoid paying warranty claims due to operator negligence. All MB dealer “key” service personnel (Shop Foreman for example :D), have been advised to consider fuel quality issues before spending time on needless diagnostics.



This statement is almost correct. Using bio-diesel won’t void the warranty. Well, not exactly. If bio-diesel is found to be the cause of the problem, the vehicle owner is responsible for the cost of the repairs. Once the vehicle has been repaired, the manufacturers’ warranty will still be in effect for the remainder of the mileage/time allowed, unless the owner decides to use bio-diesel again!!!



Yeah, this is good advice. Take the low-road. Greasybenz, do you think all MB dealers are complete idiots? If this vehicle showed up at my dealership, I’d spot the B.S. in two seconds. If the client tried to jerk me around, and waste my very valuable time (I should be helping clients with legitimate problems), I certainly wouldn’t appreciate it. On the other hand, if a client told me the truth (and didn’t waste my time), and asked if I could do anything to help, I wouldn’t think twice. I’d do whatever I could to help. Your approach would probably end up back-firing.

ILUVMILS - Thanks for clarifying.

Lance - That MB Press release only address's CDI and Bluetec engines. Is there another release you are remembering?

AUSTINMC - I'd still recommend getting the B100 drained before firing it up again; or tow it and let the dealer do it. AND...what IS "VIRGIN B100"??? Please elaborate.

Just curious but,
 

Did you, by chance, get your B100 from a 'home brewer' or a company called Lovecraft?

kudos to ILUVMILS, well said.

Wow saving a couple hundred bucks on fuel in a $60k car. Now I recomend a nice tube of KY so your MB dealer will slide in nice and smooth as you bend over for the repair bill, and voided warranty.:D

http://www.blushingbuyer.co.uk/produ...;Warehouse.jpg

Make sure to bring the big tube, and your check book, or Amex. That Amex is going to scream when they run it through!:D

For the most part YES! Service advisors, shop foremans, and the mechanics are idiots and so easy to put together. You should see how i put them together when i need warranty repairs done on my C32 that i know ARE NOT covered under warranty. I know the car business like the back of my hand, i know how to pull one over on someone and f*ck them so hard they wont even know what hit them. I remember at SF benz the shop foreman came to me and said "Ruben, god damn it you pulled one over on me you know that right?" I said, "yes i know" :) And i had gotten a new exhaust system at their cost!

Dealers make enough money as it is, they can take a hit on one car ;)

Congratulations greasy Benz, you’re a truly gifted person.




Believe me, he was humoring you. You're giving yourself way too much credit.

At most MB dealers, when questions arise, the Shop Foreman is responsible for determining whether or not a particular repair is covered under warranty, or not. In most cases, the dealer will side with the client, unless the cost of the repair is very high.

Since you know the car business "like the back of your hand", you know that the Shop Foreman must sign off on warranty repairs, and is accountable in the event of an audit by MBUSA. There's no way in the world that the Shop Foreman in SF would have approved a repair that he knew would land him in hot water. If you think otherwise, think again. :)

No buddy im not giving myself too much credit, i know i am the BEST plain and simple.

Otherwise i wouldnt be making the money im making nor would i be bragging about it so much as i am. I dont care if you dont believe me, what difference does it make to me?

If you are the BEST the shop foreman wouldnt be coming to you, you would be the foreman. Plain and simple.

The whisper speaks louder than the shout, he who brags about much acheives little.;)

Limp mode means the car isn't going into closed loop. I'd check to see if the ECT sensor is bad first. And MILs light when a car exceeds 1.5 times the EPA allowed threshold for a particular controlled emission. I would read the DTCs and determine what the problem is before jumping to the conclusion that bio is the problem. You might not have a fuel system issue at all. Since B100 causes fewer emissions I don't think a MIL would light due to an emission problem.

If you're worried go to Auto Zone and get them to read the DTCs.

Also, the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act of 1975 limits a manufacturer's warranty to parts and workmanship. Therefore, burning B100 can not by law void your warranty. If you burn dirty bio and it causes a problem then the manufacturer could refuse to honor the warranty related to repairing a problem caused by burning that fuel. Burning dirty ULSD carries the same risk. If ULSD causes a fuel system problem then the manufacturer can refuse also. There is no more risk burning bio than ULSD.

And I'm burning B100 in an 08 Jeep CRD with no problems to date. I've had my oil analysed and my engine is perfect. I'm getting better mileage with bio too. So I guess it all depends on how competent you are when you make and use B100.

What a jackass!!! :evil: When a person feels like they have to brag about themselves it is somewhat akin to Little Man's syndrome. I don't know if you're short of stature, but you are certainly short of character. {if not devoid totally}

**apologies to the decent forum members, and certainly to the original poster of this thread for a massive hijack. But the thread rooted out a real worm and I just couldn't keep my mouth shut. Imagine that.....:o:o**

My under which is standing (understanding) is that OBD I is that way. OBDII is more intrusive from the standpoint that even if everything is in the right ratio at the end, if it gets more of a certain thing that it expects to see, it will trip the light fantastic. So if you put a supercharger in the car and manage to get the fuel ration to be right from the 02 sensor, it will still trip the light fantastic because the MAF reads more air than it was told it would see. Someone correct me if I made a mistake

Yes but you can go back to the fuel retailer for redress if it comes to that. OTOH, if you made your own bio and it hosed the fuel system, who do you go to when the manufacturer says "You used more than B5. Fuel systems are your problem."?

It is best to keep your mouth shut and be presumed ignorant than to open it and remove all doubt. Mark Twain

Greasy, please feel free to refer to this quote in the future.;)

The only purpose of OBDII is the control of emissions. Once the engine reaches operating temperature the PCM will recognize the O2 sensor and then adjust the air/fuel mixture accordingly (Heated O2 sensors reach operating temperature more quickly). The PCM does this by either adjusting injector pulse width or fuel rail pressure. The MAF sensor reading increased air flow wouldn't illuminate a MIL. The PCM would simply use that input to help decide how to adjust the air/fuel ratio.

If I burn bad fuel and it kills my fuel system then it's my fault and the bill is mine. However, I make good fuel in a BioPro190 which is tested before I put it in my fuel tank. I'm confident there will be no problems.

So what is the difference betwen OBDI and OBDII? According to THIS,

OBD 1 and OBD 2 are similar in that both systems checked sensor and actuator circuits for opens shorts and out of range values.

However, the failure limits for OBD one are far more forgiving, since a circuit or component must fail completely before the check engine light is illuminated or a diagnostic trouble code is stored.

In contrast obd2 use a series of monitors or diagnostic tests that conduct performance evaluations on an emission components.
OBD 2 sensors and subsystems

If a monitored circuit fails to meet minimum performance standards even though the circuit may still be operating. The power train control module will illuminate the check engine light and store a diagnostic trouble code to aid in the mechanics diagnosis.

In the CRD/CDI type motors can you still use Diesel #1?

OBDII monitors emission control components. If a component fails then the PCM could light the MIL or simply create an artificial value for it. It really all depends on its importance. A DTC will be stored regardless.

However, in your scenario you stated that a MIL would be illuminated if the MAF sensor read more airflow. That isn't correct. The MAF simply lets the PCM know how much air is entering the intake manifold and is a representation of engine load. If the MAF fails then a DTC is stored and the MIL is illuminated. But in your scenario you stated that you got the air/fuel mixture right so a MAF sensor reading more air isn't going to illuminate a MIL.

I'm going to school to get my associates in Auto Technology. I'm not currently working in the field so take what I have to say with a grain of salt. I am, however, finishing up my summer session of Emission Control Systems. I wish the OP would come back and tell us the fault codes his computer set so we could have a discussion of all the facts in this case.

They do every winter.

I was just reading something about how Minnesota is going to mandate that all diesel sold in their state is B-20. Does that mean that MB will have to change its position on Bio? Or is 20% not going to effect the newer engines?

They won't mandate it, it would be stupid of them to do so. They will have lawsuits out the wazoo from people with gelling problems and warranty repairs denied. Minnesota is about the last place that should be mandating any biodiesel because every Diesel would gel in their harsh winters. Texas, Florida or any of the southern states are the ones that should consider doing it.

Cummins is currently the only engine builder that allows more than B5 (B20).

It does seem silly for such a cold climate. Maybe things have changed since this was written;
http://domesticfuel.com/2008/05/12/minnesota-adopts-biggest-biodiesel-standard/