Sorry Husk, I misunderstood your prior statement and thought you meant you could run the OM606 without electrical power. You can probably run the car without a battery, of course just about any car, gas or diesel can run without a battery as long as it has a good alternator. I've driven gas powered cars without batteries too and yes, they will run off the alternator.

As for the personal insults, all I said was you don't know what you are talking about...nothing personal, it's just to make a statement about "how simple" the emissions controls are in the bluetec system shows you haven't seen it. It is, by far, the most complex emissions system put into any car I have ever seen - to call it "simple" you must be aware of some that I don't know about.

Pull the battery, and see what happens you are wrong sorry, The alternator provides sufficient power once the engine is running to power the ECM. Trust me I am living proof that you can do this

Thanks Marty, I'm done.

BLUETEC runs off technologies which have existed for a long time, filters, Catalysts etc. The only thing added is the exhaust treatment in the form of UREA injection. I am not sure what is so complex about the injection of UREA into the exhaust stream? I mean there is not much that can fail there?

Even if we believed you actually owned that car it proves nothing other than you have good taste in cars - not that you know anything about them. I'm sure most people with the money to buy a car like that don't understand the first thing about how cars work, so, come to think of it you probably do own it.

Ok I am a poser on an internet board, just answer my question if you can..... Here are some other vehicles that I know nothing about but you know everything about.....

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...b/P1000599.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...b/P1000598.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...b/P1000600.jpg

You're absolutely right, I stand corrected, here is how it works and it sure sounds like there's nothing that could possibly cause problems at all:

NAC+SCR
Exhaust leaves the engine and passes through a Diesel Oxidation Catalyst (DOC), which reduces carbon monoxide and unburned hydrocarbons in the exhaust. Next is the NOx Absorber Catalyst, or NAC, which removes and traps oxides of nitrogen (NOx is one of the chief elements in diesel pollution). During periods of lean operation (low fuel-to-air ratio) NOx is stored; under richer operating conditions (which can be created by manipulating the fuel injection) the NAC undergoes a regeneration process and releases ammonia into the exhaust. The ammonia is stored downstream in the Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) catalyst which uses it to further reduce NOx.

In between the NAC and SCR catalysts is a particulate filter that traps particulate emissions (soot). As the particulate filter becomes full, the engine computer manipulates the fuel injection process to raise the exhaust gas temperature, which in turn burns off the particulates.

ADBLUE
The AdBlue system houses the DOC and particulate filter in a single housing. In addition to the NAC catalyst, ammonia is supplied by injecting a fluid called AdBlue into the exhaust upstream of the SCR catalyst. The addition of AdBlue fluid enables the SCR catalyst to reduce NOx emissions to a level even lower than the NAC-SCR system. AdBlue is carried in an on-board tank which can be replenished when the car is serviced; a gallon of AdBlue fluid lasts approximately 2,400 miles

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

YES SCR's have been around for a long time as well (at least 50 years I would Imagine) they are commonly used with scrubbers in power plants. You have particulate filters, O2 Catalysts, which have been around for a very long time and are pretty commonly used in vehicles. So tell me what specifically do you feel will be unreliable or could prove to be a problem? The ADBlue service intervals? Your statements really do not answer my question.....

Just because something's "been around a long time" doesn't mean it will work in this application. Tell me how long have glow plugs been around, and, yet, they can't seem to make any strong enough to be reliably extracted from the heads of any Mercedes engine made in the past 15 years. I'll believe they can perfect this system when they prove to me they can get my glow plugs out without breaking off.

Haven't had a problem with mine, if you coat the threads with anti sieze you should be ok.

So tell me what do you think will go wrong? you seem to be the expert in this field...I would like to know from the DOC himself what his expert opinion is on why this system is finicky. i know nothing about cars in your estimation so I am trying to learn from the man himself.

I think the following thread is pretty informative when it comes to CDI's/Bluetecs:
http://www.mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w211/197568-320-cdi-i6-v-v6.html

Posts like #42 have especially interesting info:

This thread struck a nerve...

About like telling the butcher he should be a vegetarian.

Well up until you typed that, you had a fairly weak argument. Now you just aren't making sense at all. You actually believe that little can go wrong with the new diesel emissions systems. Think EGR to the power of 4 or 5.

Speaking of not knowing what you're talking about, morty. :rolleyes:

A 606 runs without a battery in it, because I've had mine out before driving 25 miles to the MB store to buy a new battery. Husk is correct about them not needing a battery to run.

This is a very interesting thread. I hope it turns back to being more civil though.

I was a real fan of the new CDI technologies, based mainly on the already mentioned robust torque curve and very impressive fuel economy. In fact, I wrote a long (no surprise there, eh?) letter to MB and to The Star questioning the delay in bringing the "C" class over with one of these new Diesels in it. They could have spent 2000 to 2009 building a new Diesel clientele and owning the mileage, range and performance criteria in that class of vehicle (the C270D CDI or even C220D CDI are very nice cars that get well over 40 mpg), all in preparation for the Bluetec vehicles.

Then I looked at one of these engines in the "E" Class engine compartment, and I read about the Bluetec system in The Star a month or so ago. The EGR system is a much bigger part of the NOx control now, so much so it has to pass through an intercooler. Now, after cleaning my manifold to remove the build up of tar from oil fumes and exhaust particulate, I am not too certain I a believe a condensing exhaust with all that particulate content won't plug or corrode the intercooler in relatively short order. I am not overly concerned with the AddBlue or the catalysts other than to worry a bit about how they keep the AddBlue fluid from freezing in cold climates. But I am concerned the intercooler is going to turn into an expensive sacrificial element of the emissions system. Time will tell, though, and I have time to wait this out and find out how the machine does.

If the engine and emissions system prove to be reliable and long lived, I will be looking for a GL320 CDI or, possibly an ML320 CDI when they roll back into dealerships with ~60k miles on them.

Until then they are nothing more than interesting. And for the record, I will never be without a Diesel. I lived through those gas lines as well, and 90% of the reason there were no Diesel lines is there were no Diesels to line up, not even pick-ups, and there were no SUVs back then. And, I agree that anyone who makes an economic evaluation on a 20 year purchase based on 30 day gas vs. Diesel prices is short changing themselves. Oil prices will be back up to $90 a barrel inside a year. And they will likely go higher and lower a few more times in the next 20 years. At some point the added refining complexity has to affect the price of gasoline, especially premium grades. For most of our history with internal combustion engines Diesel has been less costly per gallon than even regular gas. When that price structure returns we will look at these days of inverted prices and wonder how we justified buying gas cars. Until then, however, I will buy them just for the challenge of getting over 700 miles to a 22 gallon tank of fuel. Jim

I'll stand by what I said, you can't run these cars without electrical power, but that doesn't mean that they won't run without a battery. Read post #51 and you will see my clarification:

"Sorry Husk, I misunderstood your prior statement and thought you meant you could run the OM606 without electrical power. You can probably run the car without a battery, of course just about any car, gas or diesel can run without a battery as long as it has a good alternator. I've driven gas powered cars without batteries too and yes, they will run off the alternator."

My point here is that Husk seemed to imply there was something unique about the ability to run a diesel without a battery - which of course there is not. In the old days, probably up to about 1980 you could run a diesel Mercedes without a battery or alternator because once started the engine required no electrical energy. That was unique to a diesel. After they started controlling certain functions with computers this became more problematic and once the IP became computer controlled it was impossible. That's what confused people about Husk's post - that somehow he could run his car without electrical power, not simply with the battery removed once it was started.

You and he seem to both have trouble reading all of the details of a post before responding. You both also seem to like goading people into arguments. A this point I'm done responding to him and also done with you - except to correct this error which you made in interpreting my post to mean you could not run the car without a battery...I concur that you can in this and just about any car (why you would want to I don't know).

Most people on this board appreciate a lively debate (as I do) but when people turn into instigators and have arguments like "today's gas engines require costly tuneups" and the bluetec emissions controls are "simple" and "have little that can go wrong" it's obvious they are either, ignorant, delusional or just trying to be irritating. That's when I get less diplomatic in my responses.

Running an engine without a battery is not the same thing as running an engine without electricity. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

That's like confusing Berkshire A and B shares that you like to pretend to own.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71...k/Misc/bdh.gif http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71...sc/popcorn.gif

Today's gas engines are not any simpler than their diesel counterparts. I'd say they're about equally complex and gas engines may still have more parts.

Invest in some cleaning & cetane boosting fuel additives and the occasional Italian tune-up. My intake is always clean, with just a little dry soot coating.

"Running an engine without a battery is not the same thing as running an engine without electricity." No kidding? :rolleyes::)

How astute.......owning both BRK.A & BRK.B.....there is 29/30ths of no comparison between them.
I know this because I sold two shares of "A" to buy my home. Thanks for reminding me!:D;)

Thanks for the LINK. Very informative!:)

How often do EGR valves fail, in a modern Mercedes?

I believe that the system is based on technologies which have been around for a long time and that these technologies are reliable enough to offer trouble free operation.

I would like to hear from you, what specifically you believe will be the weak link of this technology.



Not true remove the battery from your C43 and romp on the gas and see what happens, it will stall. Your postulates are interesting but are based not on fact, but your armchair research. I suggest you get your hands dirty and try things out rather than making statements which are untrue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nhdoc
You and he seem to both have trouble reading all of the details of a post before responding. You both also seem to like goading people into arguments. A this point I'm done responding to him and also done with you - except to correct this error which you made in interpreting my post to mean you could not run the car without a battery...I concur that you can in this and just about any car (why you would want to I don't know).


That is exactly correct, Husk. Each of us gave personal accounts of driving without a battery. It will not work as he states, in his wife's leased C43. Claiming untrue mechanical realities are a problem to state without actually knowing.

You can run any car without a battery as long as the alternator is charging. You shouldn't because on the modern ones the computers would get pissed, and you can ruin the voltage regulator on the back of the alternator.

Cutting off power to the engine is a totaly different thing. I know a 606 will not run with no juice, my 603 will just. The ELS idle control on the IP gets annoyed.

Not trying to get involved, just clear up this misunderstanding. Remember the battery doesn't provide power once the engine is running, it simply stores it.

That's correct, Hatterasguy.......ask me how I know?;)

on a 606.962 you will get a ton of errors (i.e. a red flashing screen on the instrument cluster) but you can run it without a physical battery.

You cannot do this on a modern gasoline mercedes, have you tried it? The voltage regulator on the gas mercedes is linked to the OBD which will not allow it to run for a significant period of time (ie more than idle)

I won't try it with any car because its not good for the alternator.

I'd call 1800-4-Mercedes and have them bring out a new battery.

OK, I'll try and explain it to you. The fairly simple emissions system on the OM603 (the MB diesel I'm familiar with) consisted of the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) and the trap oxidizer.

The trap oxidizer failed early on and was eventually recalled. The recall is still open to this day. The EGR valve itself does fail by sticking open; although it is not that common. The problem is when the EGR works as designed and starts to fill the intake and vacuum lines with gooey soot. The signal to the turbo is eventually blocked and the car is a slug. So both parts of the emission system failed to work as designed. That is a fact.

So my opinion is based on the car I own and what I've read about the new systems developed my Ford, Cummins, MB, etc. The system MB uses, may be proven technology (as you postulate), but certainly not on an automobile engine. I'm not an engineer, but all the new systems are extremely complex. For you to argue this point just leads me to believe you don't know much about those complex systems. You just assume they will be fine. I hope they are fine, but lets revisit this debate in 10 years and we will have our answer.

What Marty was saying (not to put words in his mouth) is that it doesn't make economic sense to own a diesel. I happen to agree with him. I still drive a diesel despite the economic loss in doing so. I want to be able to burn biodiesel instead of petroleum. So I won't be buying a bluetec anytime soon.

A couple other things I've noticed the postings. A good debater doesn't prove their point, by showing off how many nice cars they own or the garage they are stored in; although I do like the garage. Putting people down to prove a point doesn't work with me.

I suspect I've just wasted a layer of skin to type this, so please, take a minute and think about it as your read it. But as BC once said, I type not to persuade you, but so that others may learn.

Chris

Ok Maybe I was not clear when I posted my question, so here it is again. On the new BLUTECH Mercedes vehicles, what specifically do you feel will be the weak link in the emissions control system?

By comparing 21 year old technology to the Blutech system (trap ox's have come a long way since 1987) it is not an accurate or valid comparison.

There is no economic loss in running a diesel, worst case scenario its a wash, the numbers that have been posted prove this. If you run HB Biodiesel it is actually significantly cheaper than unleaded.

The system is NOT that complex, you are not engineer, so that is probably why it seems complex to you. Its fairly quite simple, and the technologies used have been around for the past 50 years. I am an engineer, and by you saying that I do not "know" much about complex systems is based on nothing of substance. You need to do more research and find out how these systems work with each other. Once you do I suspect you will have a different perspective.

Well the emissions system aside, the GP's in the CDI are quite long like in the 606. So if you have to yank the head once to extract a broken GP...well there goes all your savings.

The CDI's probably produce less carbon in the cylinders, so they may not lock them in like on the IDI 606's. I havn't heard of any broken off GP's in CDI's, maybe because they don't have the same problem, or just because they are still to new.

Those 4 valve heads are tough with GP's, they have to be so long.