2005 E320 CDI experience/troubles
 

I'm getting close to making an offer on one of these. Just drove it yesterday, seems faultless and we've been driving diesel benz's for about 35 years. .
Present car is '87 300 Diesel Turbo 300K kilometers and doing pretty well.


55K kilometers
Wondering if any owners or experienced persons would make any comments about faults,
lookfors,
opinions about extended warranty.
Electrical OK?
all that kind of stuff.
other

Thanks very much

Does that car have SBS (Sensotronic Braking System)?

The I6 CDI engine is a reliable and proven design. Gp's get stuck like the 606's.

Biggest complaint I've heard on W211's is the SBC brake system. I beleive it was only around for 05-06.

I'll prob replace my 99 with an 06 in the next year.

Agreed here too.

I have to say I find it really hard to justify purchasing a CDI today. The E350 can be had in an '06 for $10K less than a CDI, if not more. The fact that diesel is 30% more than premium gas negates any difference in fuel economy and the fact that the E350 comes in 4Matic whereas the CDI is pure RWD makes me lean in the direction of a E350 4Matic instead. I just saw an '06 with 45K miles, certified from the dealer for around $20K - it was hard to pass up but I resisted. I think better deals will still be coming as things get tougher.

I think you're right but CDI prices are falling along with everything else. I've seen a number of them listed recently at mid-$20k (and not just ones with high miles). Seems like six months ago they were all near $40k!

CDI's are not DIY friendly, you need SDS to do even the most simple tasks. I am not sure what the draw is, the performance is great but a 606.962 can be modified relatively cheaply to give a CDI a run for its money. The SBC system is a major flaw (Mercedes dropped the system on the facelifted models).

They are falling, just not as fast or far as the gas versions. It's simple supply and demand. I'd guess M-B sold at least 10 gassers for every diesel since '05, probably more like 20-30. You can find E350 and E500 models on every dealer lot and on every classified posting area of the country but CDIs and bluetecs are still relatively scarce.

To pay any premium for the diesel model today is unjustifiable (I know this is an unpopular view on this board) but the economics of it just aren't there any more. The CDIs should be selling at parity with the gas models - gassers require no more maintenance than the diesels and last just as long with proper care as their diesel counterparts.

:eek:

Does the E350 require premium fuel?

Scott

IIRC the last mercedes that ran on regular fuel was built in the early to mid 1970's

Yes, it would.

I agree completely with Marty, I've been driving Diesels for most of the last two decades but I'm done - no real advantage anymore.

Its funny he mentions the 06 E350, I've been looking at these for the last two months and the deals are hard to pass up. 18-20K for a tremendous value for a car with those capabilities.

An '06 CDI w/45K miles for $20K would be a great deal, IMO.

I want to get my uncles 2007 E350 4matic when he sells it. Maybe I can take it as payment on a deal insted of cash.:D

I love the W211 and I want AWD. They have some good balls to so I could put a hitch on it and tow a quad or sled. That V6 puts out more power than the M117, and about as much as the M119 and M113.

The cost difference between a diesel and gas (increased MPG) is still significant. Mercedes sees the Diesel motor as its answer to the gas/hybrid powertrain. People pay a significant amount for a Hybrid powertrain (which will have a far longer payback than a diesel). The clean diesels are not about cost savings but rather producing a vehicle that has similar performance to a gas vehicle (unlike a hybrid) but still gets amazing MPG's.

There is no other vehicle on the market that can get mid 30's mpg, RWD, performance etc as the CDI's. Thats the market Mercedes is going after. Most people who buy these cars probably don't cross shop with the gassers.

My uncle gets about 22ish around tow, and a CDI would probably get about 30 doing the same stop and go. I'm saying that because my friends E300D will do high 20's, so a CDI is probably going to be a bit better. You only see mid 30's on the open road.

Diesel is about $2.69, I paid 1.99 for Shell V power 93 octane last week, this week I think its $1.89.

So to drive 1k miles at 22mpg you would burn 45.45 gallons at $1.89, so $85.90.

1k miles at 30mpg would be 33.33 gallons at $2.69 so $89.67.

So unless you have to have the diesel, or drive 30k-50k miles a year on the open road, get the gas Mercedes. The diesel will cost more to operate. Now if your buying used and can save $8k+ the gas car is the clear winner.

Mercedes also does not offer AWD on the diesel in this country, which is a huge mistake since most people up here buy these cars with AWD.

According to the EPA its cheaper to run a diesel vehicle with regard to fuel costs.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/Feg/noframes/21991.shtml

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/Feg/noframes/25977.shtml

Plus resale is much higher than the gasser. Take a look at the w210 diesels vs W210 Gassers, same goes with the w124 diesels vs the w124 gassers. You will recoup the "diesel premium" sooner or later.

Well I don't know where they are getting those cheap fuel prices from! For quite awhile diesel has been as much as $1 more a gallon than gas, I don't see that changing anytime soon. But even according to the EPA your only saving about $200 a year on fuel. If you have to pay $8k more to get the CDI well you will never make that back.

If your buying it new and don't have to have AWD than the diesel is a good choice. Better resale and better mileage.

If your buying it used, with the massive price difference than the gas one is cheaper to run.

The Price of diesel the EPA assumes in this comparison is higher than even the stated 70 cent difference in your area. I think the difference listed here is higher than normal but at the end of the day even with a ~80 cent price difference its cheaper to run the diesel vehicle. The more you drive the more you save.



Assumed Fuel Prices:

* Regular: 1.66
* Premium: 1.92
* Diesel: 2.42
* CNG: 2.55
* Electricity: 0.08 per kilowatt hour
* E85: 2.82
* LPG: 2.10

Well do the math with your local fuel prices. Thats how my math works out for probably about 8kish miles a year, E350 wins. If I was going to drive the car 30k+ a year the diesel would start to look good again. But I don't drive that much.

If you read the notes it says based upon diesel fuel @ $1.66/Gal and gas at $1.92. Around here premium is about $2 and diesel is still close to $2.70. That's reality not EPA fantasy numbers and with those numbers is it about a wash. This table is closer to reality but still not correct:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/Feg/bymodel/2006_Mercedes-Benz_E-Class.shtml

It is based upon premium at $1.92 and diesel at $2.42 and shows about $170 difference between the CDI and the E350 4Matic. That goes to about zero if you add $.20 to the cost of diesel to reflect what it really is.

Also, the fact that you are starting out paying 20%-30% less for the gas model makes up for the faster depreciation - in other words the car's already depreciated faster and you are tying up less money in a gasser than a CDI.

I have learned that there are people on these boards which for whatever reason will never admit that a diesel car is impractical, but it is today. 25 years ago when gasoline engines required more maintenance and lasted half as long as a diesel and diesel fuel was cheaper than gas it made sense to drive a diesel car. Today none of those conditions exist. The maintenance is about the same, the engines last about as long and diesel is 30% more costly than gas, so why would anyone buy one and actually pay a premium for it, not to mention settle for RWD to boot. But, like I said, we will never convince those who can't have their minds changed.

Well if I was buying a new E class I would get the diesel. It doesn't cost any more new and I just prefer a diesel, also resale is much higher.

Its like a Dodge truck salesman said to me once, "I have clients that spend the extra $8k for the Cummins because they like the way it sounds."

People buy things on emotions, not logic.

A. More diesels are sold in the south/southwest than the snow/rust belts, so 4matic is not important

B. 10 years from now the diesel car will be worth roughly twice what a gasser is worth....look at the E300;s from 95 they are worth twice what a gasser of the same vintage goes for.

C. No costly tune ups are necessary

D. The more you drive a diesel the more you save

E. Using your theory people wouldn't spend extra for any options, because they would not be able to recoup the costs...>Why do people by hybrids? Or add the diesel option to trucks? Or get heated seats? etc?

I get low 20s around town, without the AC. Basically 23 mpg.

Diesel engines are known to be rugged, delivering high mileage w/o overhauls. That's another reason why I drive 'em. It's the fuel economy aspect too.

Like I said, some people just can't be convinced :rolleyes:

A) The standard E350 is even CHEAPER than the 4Matic on the second hand market, so if you don't need AWD you would save even more buying a used one over a CDI.

B) Again, it is supply and demand, but keep in mind that in the mid to late 90's they sold almost no diesel models in the USA so the supply of them on the second hand market is scarce. The price differential today is not as high as it was a few years ago and the price of the diesel models tops out at about $10K now, even for a relatively low miles turbo. The N/A's can be had for little more than a gasser...about $5K-$7K is typical. Yeah, so if you had spent $10K more for a used W210 turbo diesel 5 years ago than a E320 you would now have a car worth $5K more than the E320, I still don't see the advantage.

C) This one is my favorite. Today's gassers need "costly tune ups" every 100,000 miles/5 years. This basically consists of replacement of spark plugs as the only difference between a gasser and a diesel. I've replaced spark plugs in 4, 6 and 8 cylinder gas M-B engines and none required as much work as my OM606 is to replace glow plugs. 16 spark plugs for my C43 cost $85. 6 glow plugs for my E300 cost $150. PLUS, I have never heard of anyone breaking off a spark plug in an M-B gasser's head :P

D) As the prior posts have stated, the cost difference on fuel negates just about any difference in MPGs, so this is one dead horse which needs no more beating.

E) I don't even understand the point of E. Why do people buy hybrids? That's a good question, it certainly isn't to save money. I think most do because they think it is good for the planet, another misconception.

I agree that buying new is different than used since both are very close to the same price and the diesel does seem to depreciate much more slowly. My posts were based upon the OP's questions about used CDIs, not new and the comparison to used gassers of the same era.

For those of use using biodiesel, the CDI injected models are some trouble, so they shouldnt command any sort of premium price as they dont have much of an alt fuel mission.

must be a german thing.vw doesn't have 4motion diesels over here either.

I owned a 210 turbodiesel sedan for ~6 years and have been driving a 210 wagon with the M112 for ~5 years. In my experience the M112 is less expensive to own than the OM606. The spark plugs on the M112 cost less, last longer, and are easier to change than the glowplugs on the OM606. My OM606 needed glowplugs at 35K and 60K miles. In contrast the M112 was running fine when the plugs were changed at 55K miles. In fairness, the M112 requires plug changes every 5 years, so average folks won't get 100K miles out of a set.

Anyways, my experience has been the M112 is less fussy, less expensive to own, and has lower fuel costs (given the current petrol/diesel price spread in the U.S.).

That said, I do like driving the turbo OM606 better. There is no substitute for torque...

- JimY

2005 e320 cdi
 

We have one in the family (mother) and it's a great car that get fantastic fuel mileage. I'm not sure if the extra money spent on diesel fuel is worth the extra MPG. It's close. My gas 1996 120K E320 gets 26 MPG on the highway.

A lot of you seem pretty short-sighted. Sure, maybe right now the fuel price differential doesn't justify purchasing a diesel (all other reasons aside). But what about when gas is $4 a gallon like it was a few months ago? Even if diesel costs $5, it's still worth it. You need to look at the price differential as a percentage rather than an absolute difference. The CDI gets about 35% better fuel economy than the its gasoline sibling and that's what counts. Where else can you get a full-size sedan that has the torque of a big V8 and the economy of a 4 banger? I don't know of any other. Having said that, I admit that if you don't need the huge torque and prefer a wider power band and don't care much about mileage, the gasoline versions look pretty attractive.

Like Marty said there are always going to be a couple of people that can't be convinced.....

To sum up the positions of the short sighted gasser converts

1) maintenance is a wash
2) longevity is a wash
3) performance is pretty much a wash (I'll admit the CDI might be slightly faster)
4) refinement is pretty much a wash

The CDI does indeed get 30-35% better economy but the fuel costs 25% more (even at your more favorable $4 gas vs $5 diesel ratios) - that's pretty close to a wash in my book.

If you are buying new by all means get the CDI but to pay a 10K premium for a used CDI over an equivalent E350 doesn't seem to be a good deal IMHO.

What is the new price of a E320 CDI v. the E350? I know that the 606 didn't cost much (any?) more than the inline 6 gas engine for my '96.

So why woud you not get the diesel? What makes the gasser a better bargain? You will take a much larger hit on resale than new.

Please show figures which show that longevity is a wash, I don't believe a gas mercedes will last as long as a diesel mercedes.

What is there to be convinced about? I don't see any disagreement between us.

Please show figures to show that a gas MB will not last as long as a Diesel MB.

I fully expect my 119 to outlast the vehicle that is built around it. Neither I nor any indie that I've used has ever seen a 119 in need of a rebuild. Furthermore, the M103 and M104 will run every bit as long as any Diesel of the same era.

Not trying to pick a fight, just saying that they are both great cars!

Probably in the old days diesels were more durable, but I don't think that's the case today. Gas engines now last a lot longer than they used to, probably about the same as diesels, but I don't really have any data to go by. I just know nowadays 200K miles is nothing for just about any engine.

To the OP, not many people on this board have experience with a CDI. I suggest visiting this forum:
http://www.mbworld.org/forums/index.php

Also www.edmunds.com has useful consumer reviews. Overall I've read good things about these cars and it seems that the quality has improved since the 90's.

Once gas engines went to fuel injection the diesels lost a lot of advantages.

We are not talking about SBC's, Mercedes makes such good (and expensive!!!:eek:) gas engines that with some oil changes and a valve job once in awhile...well you will grow tired of the car before you are able to wear out the bottom end. After 300k or so miles the rest of the car is pretty clapped out anyway unless you have been replacing a lot of stuff along the way. Any MB engine gas or diesel will easly cover 300k miles.

I have seen high mileage examples of each, and if taken care of they hold up. Thats why a M119 crate motor cost's $20k...quality isn't cheap.:eek:

The poster earlier stated that durability was a wash, I would like to see where these numbers come from.

Diesels have less moving parts, fewer things to go wrong, fewer adjustments, and are throttled off air. Granted the new ones are way more complicated, but the premise is the same.

Diesels use stronger components because of the higher compression ratio's they are designed for durability. Gassers might be durable, but not as durable as a diesel. Please show me what specific components on a Mercedes gas vehicle lead you to believe that the durability is on par with a diesel motor.

The M104 will not run as long as a 606, (I own 2 606's and a M104) the head gasket issues are a major problem with these motors.

I would like to second SBC. && injectors! we've had leaky a couple times... and yes.. mpg/price is big in our house too... @ the dealership today here in tampa 08 E550 designo graphite package... looking to trade in the SLK and the capri blue CDI on it... sticker is 74xxx they're coming down 13 right off the top plus 0.9%

The valve job might still be a gasoline engine's weakness. It seems that diesel engines don't need it, at least not as often. Gas engines have been fuel injected for decades. I don't see what that has taken away from diesel engines.

Well back in the 50's, 60's and 70's 100k miles used to be about all you would get out of an engine, some wouldn't even get that far. Carb's are tough, they wash the oil off the cylinder walls, and do all sorts of neat things.

Diesels didn't have this problem, they would last two or three times as long.

Absolutely correct. Some are unable to grasp this.

The diesel will always win the economy game over time for overall utility and value.......always have too.

Anyone that says fuel economy doesn't matter, has a very short memory. Nothing new there either.:rolleyes:

I knew that my post would stir up a hornet's nest on this board :D

What I will concede is that the decision to go diesel is not based upon practicality today but still is appealing for other reasons. There is no economic reason to choose a used CDI over its used gas counterpart, period. The cars are basically identical otherwise and to argue the CDI is somehow less complex than the gas engine is truly showing one's ignorance of the CDI design. You could say that you might save 10% overall on fuel costs but for the average (15K miles per year) driver that would amount to about $10-$20 a month - hardly something that should come into the equation for buying a Mercedes-Benz.

Add to this argument the present somewhat untested emissions controls of the current diesel models (4 separate systems which all have to work perfectly) and the diesel is easily more finicky and complex that the gas model. This makes the choice of buying a new diesel over a new gasser less of a "no brainer" too.

People think I am some newbie to the diesel world because of my recent posts critical of the practicality of owning one. I learned to drive on a '74 240D in the late 70s and have been an advocate of diesels since then, but today, conditions have changed and unless you are willing to admit that *maybe* the decision to go diesel is impractical you are probably just fooling yourself.

OK, here's my last thoughts on this subject. My reason for continuing to drive a diesel is not because of economy, longevity or ease of maintenance. It is because in the early 1970s when there were gas lines at every station the truck stops always had plenty of diesel. My dad said "there will always be diesel because the military and commerce depends on it - if trucks can't get to the stores the whole economy implodes". That still holds true today. In fact, last summer when the refineries were having their problems meeting demands in the south for gas there was always diesel available. So, I guess I can admit there is one practical reason for owning a diesel powered car - in the event of another gas shortage I think the odds are pretty good that diesel will still be plentiful. That's my reason for owning one - it is the peace of mind of knowing I am not 100% dependent on gasoline. Not the greatest reason in the world but a good one for me.

People who buy the diesel variants usually drive more than those who buy the gas variants. The untested emission control systems is not that complicated. There is little that can go wrong.


You can run your 606 without a battery for thousands of miles, try that on a gas car.

I wonder if the engineers in 1986 thought the same thing about that new fangled "trap-oxidizer" they decided to use in the USA for the OM603 engine? That one worked out very well don't you think? And I've got news for you the Bluetec system is about 3 orders of magnitude more complex than than any of their earlier attempts at catalyst systems.

As far as the OM606 claim goes... I don't think so. I've pulled the fuse for the ECM on my 98 E300D when the engine is running - it shuts down instantly and won't re-start until the fuse is replaced.

Tim, Husk doesn't let facts get in the way of his opinions, it is obvious he hasn't seen the articles about the new bluetec emissions controls systems nor has he tried to run a OM606 without electrical power. I surrender to him and won't reply further. I have learned the futility of trying to reason with people who don't know what they are talking about from 45 years of dealing with my mother. We say about her "she's always wrong but never in doubt". Husk and SkidRowJoe should form their own board, my mom would probably join it ;)

I have run my 606 390 miles with no battery and it was going strong. I kept the motor running as I filled diesel etc. Pulling a fuse is different than running without a battery.

NHDOC,

I love the personal insults, its great when I have asked you to provide evidence with corroborates your claims, and you resort to personal attacks. Please provide evidence which support your claims? Why are you unable to do this? Why can't you show me instances or proof that the BT system is flawed, complex, or has a propensity fo fail? Your postulates are not based on fact or experience.

I own several gas and diesel Mercedes' including a 300SL Gullwing, I guess I have failed at life and don't know what I am talking about.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...b/IMG_2095.jpg

Traitor! :D

Personally, I think the disagreements here are minor and both sides have some truth to offer. I feel you underestimate the economy advantage that diesels have, but I understand that if you don't drive much the advantage becomes small, especially if you pay a big premium for a used diesel in which case it may become non-existent. Certainly the possible shortage of gasoline is another good reason to keep a diesel, as is the ability to run non-petroleum fuels in it (unless it's a Bluetec perhaps). Do understand that some of us also like the diesel clatter, so we may be a bit biased. ;)

The OM606 engine in your 95 still uses a basically mechanical injection pump, the pump in your 99 OM606 is totally controlled by a computer - pull the fuse that powers the ECM (or pull the battery) and the engine will instantly stop.