Your points come well taken. What I was trying to convey earlier was that a Mercedes manual trans doesn't inspire spirited shifting and driving quite like a Honda or BMW. I was not trying to say that all manual Mercs are no good, no! Manual Mercs drive well, sure, but lever action could be better. While never owning a manual Merc, I've driven a few to know their disconected, rubbery feel. I even found some of them to have rather crude sychros. And their clutch uptakes I feel are hard to get used to. (And yes, I've driven hydraulic clutches before)...

The 300D Turbo was a North American car. In its develpment, DB was intent on making it as smooth and REFINED as possible. Due to the nature of a diesel motor, in addition to it being a quirky 5 banger, smooth reliable power was their concern. Mercedes didn't even want to add a boost guage as they thought it intruded on its refinement. So, you wonder why it didn't have a manual? It's just not civilized! HAAHAHAHA...

The 300E with manual is known for wind up due to the rubber flex discs. If you have developed clutch habits on other cars, it is easy to fall in the habit of moving the shift lever before the clutch is fully disengaged plus another fraction of a second to let the flex disc relax.

This wind up will cause you to learn this habit which is conducive to long synchronizer life. Many a transmission has lived a short life because of moving the lever BEFORE the clutch torque is fully relieved. I'm quite sure that ole' Mario would have this habit down pat after a day or two in a manual 300E. I'm no Mario Andretti, but many people who ride with me make comments about my smooth transmission shifting. I often explain to them that manual transmissions do not make smooth shifts, manual transmission drivers make smooth shifts. A friend of mine who rides to lunch with me often has made comments that when it comes to "driving a stick" that Larry is the "master". He has ridden in my C, my Vette and my 300E and I'm sure that he would tell you that when riding with me in any one of them, I am equally smooth. I'm not claiming to be any smarter or more coordinated than anyone else, but after over a million miles of driving stick shift cars even an idiot like me can develop skill at it.

The reason for the lack of popularity of the manual 300E was not an inferior manual transmission/clutch arrangement, because it does not have an INFERIOR transmission/clutch arrangement. The reason was that the car itself catered to a market in the US which is dominated by automatic transmission drivers.

Have a great day,

Larry, while I don't doubt your shifting prowress, try explaining why the contemporary BMW 5 series (E28) was primarily a stick car? The 300E was MB's first venture in to a high-performance mid-size sedan. Something to combat the 533i (535 in later guize.) I know this because we had the 1986 300E, along with a 1983 533i.... Anyway, it wasn't a big seller, and is really a rare catch now. Where the E28 in stick is common. Anyway, my point... Sounds like you know what I'm talking about with the action. At least you know that I know that I'm not crazy. I also know that isn't the concern in the Getrag BMW box. Or the Honda, or the VW.... Sounds like a slow row to me Larry, but at least you like it. I know a few enthusiasts who would be less than patient.

You would make an excellent Porsche 915 shifter... Or better yet, a 901 with that tricky first gear....

I just couldn't pass this discussion up..........

Being a daily driver of a 5 spd manual, 300D non-Turbo, I must say I am very pleased. My family scoured the German countryside in 1984 looking for a 300D, turbo, with a stick shift. I think this would have been everyone's dream. The reason given to us by a German dealer on why they were not offered was because MB did not make a drive shaft that could handle the torque put out by the turbo coupled with the stick shift. Only the TDT wagons were available in 1984 with a stick shift and turbo. Why length of a driveshaft would have anything to do with it I don't know?

On clutches: I have never heard of another car where a clutch would last 262,000 miles. My clutch did not fail due to disk wear, but instead due to corrosion and breaking of the springs on the clutch disc. The disc itself would have been good for another 150-200k miles.

I think one other thing no note when comparing MB to BMW to Audi. Please allow me to stereotype: In Germany, MB drivers are the equivalent of Caddilac drivers in America. They are generally older and prefer a smoother, more living-room-like ride. Those who love to feel every turn and bump in the road and have a passion for driving (i.e yuppies) tend to by BMW in Germany. Those Germans who can afford neither and like to modify Turbo engines and tune chips, buy the Audi's.

Each German auto manufacturer is known for a type of vehicle and of course they each manufacture cars that compete on other plains. Has anyone felt the difference between an SLK and a Z3? The SLK is a much softer, quieter ride, while the Z3 is its antithesis.

One last note, I am having my driveshaft rebuilt in Atlanta this week, so I will let you know if the Euro drive shaft is any different from others that this shop has rebuilt. I would think it difficult to modify a TD to a stick and would hesitate to even try it. I will put mine up on E-bay when she gets too tired, but I feel I have another 100k miles left to go....

Just my $.02

Hey Jeff, I mentioned your name and car to Ralph... He had nothing but nice things to say! And I did not know that the wagon came in a stick... Had no idea, are you sure? Because the wagon and the sedan share the same chassis... It should be the same length???

And I'm still contending that a non-turbo stick can handle with the best of turbos, despite the race I saw, it was so close...

Gotta take the bait, having lived in Germany from 1959 to 1970, and witnessed the genesis of the new Bayerische Motoren Werke during that period, as well as the development of the Mercedes-Benz model line. The 1986 300E was far from the first sporty sedan in the Mercedes-Benz line up, and the 5 series BMW (admittedly a very good car now) was spawned from the successors to the BMW 2000 known here as the Bavaria which was built with in-line 6 cylinder engines of 2.5 to 3.0 liter displacements, I believe.

These cars were developed and marketed to compete with the W114 models (and predecessors) by Mercedes which came out in the 1967 time frame. Their design was meant to emphasize performance but struck a compromise with the remaining aspects of a high speed mode of autobahn transportation that did not take any sales from Mercedes. Actually, at the time there was such an economic boom underway, there was no where near enough supply to meet the demand from either supplier. However, the BMW sedans targeting the Mercedes-Benz mid-size series were never accepted in Germany as the equal of the Mercedes, when nearly all of them from both companies were equipped with manual transmissions, and driving anywhere in Germany involved a combination of autobahn and winding country roads.

So, the BMW has grown up a lot in the mean time and so have nearly all the cars on the market today compared to the bulk of what was offered in the mid to late 1960's. But, to make my point, even Road and Track (a magazine I often think is owned by BMW) in the early to mid 80's tested the W123 280E against the then contemporary 5 series , and named the 280E overall winner, citing it as the most fun to drive on winding mountain roads. While I do not want to turn this thread into a BMW vs. Mercedes-Benz debate, I did want to get the facts straight - BMW did not invent the sporty mid-size luxury sedan even if they play a major role in defining a portion of that category today.
As I alluded to in an earlier post, the benefit of a manual transmission is better control of the car. To Larry's point, however, the added control only comes if you know how to exercise the additional "levers" in a manner that serves to provide the added control to gain an advantage. While I do like operating the controls of a well thought out machine, making the man to machine interface seamless or more transparent, I accept that it is my responsibility to adapt to those controls to achieve the necessary level of control to drive safely.

I am not a fan of automatics as they were built on the premise that the set of hydraulic and pneumatic sensors can be set up to provide the correct load/torque/speed selection for the car without knowing what is coming next. This is particularly offensive in the 300D Turbo, which has a really limited range of events it can consider when selecting the "appropriate" gear ratio. Today's automatics have more inputs from all kinds of places, and do a lot better job at monitoring these inputs with microprocessors, but they still cannot see what is coming, and what you plan to do about it.

So, even if they get to the point of allowing a manual manipulation of the gear selection, I will miss the ability to start with a dead battery, or climb out of a snowbank by starting out in 2nd or 3rd and lugging my way forward, or any of the other things being familiar with the clutch lets you do with a manual. Jim

Randall,

At the next diesel meet, I shall be a little less conseervative and probably get a better racing start......... Glad to hear about Ralph. The fact remains clear...he diagnosed a problem that 4 other shops including a Euro specialist and an MB dealer couldn't find. I will continue to take my car from Ohio to NJ when critical components need replacement. That way, I won't have to pay for an alignment 6 times and 3 sets of front tires!:cool:

Jim,

I whole-heartedly agree with you. Any manual transmission gives an experienced driver more control over his(or her) own destiny and a few perks on the side. Some people want the convenience of automatic so they can talk on their cell phones with one hand and eat a burger with the other. :D

Mercedes has never had the purist in mind when bringing cars to America. I think they try to bring cars with the most gadgets and options. When you can order a car in Germany with each item being separate, you can truly customize a car to your liking. Too me, simplicity is wonderful. At first I was disappointed to find out the car I bought in Germany sight unseen had manual windows, but a power sunroof. Over the last 17 years, I have come to love my 123 with manual windows, manual transmission, no cruise control, no climate control, and no turbo charger.

MB created a huge following of diesel enthusiasts in the US. Where are they now? They don't listen to you when you ask for what they don't have. They are MB, buy it or don't has always been their attitude. I would give my right arm for a 2001 E320 turbo D with a stick, manual windows, no climate control, and a 45rpm phonograph!

Reagards,

A well written point... I am an avid BMW phile (among other things...) Let me just clarify... Germany aside, the American market enveloped the BMW as the performance machine it is today. I tend to believe that with their cycle, air and micro mobile heritage, they weren't taken as seriously in Germany as say Mercedes. But in America, and a lot of Europe (especially Holland and England) Bimmers won huge praise, often the choice for a sturdy, well built, fast fun car. The Mercedes, often misunderstood, was too conservative for most sporting tastes.

In the late 1970s, the 300CD was praised with having "if not the best suspension in the world." Well, I agree, it is a rather refined ride... But the power to weight ratios often deterred most American enthusiasts in a CAFE era. Enter the 533i (1983), the first high performance venture since the 530i 7 years prior, and what did Mercedes have for comparison???? A 300DT? In performance, style, and power, most found the 5 series the victor. Now the question is, where is the 5 series???? We all know where the 300Ds are. I guess slow and steady wins the race.

GreyMarketSurvivor,

That makes two of us willing to give some body parts up. I sent a letter to The Star recently in response to an article on M-B's decision to leave us out of the CDI feast (C270 CDI, C320 CDI, E270 CDI, E320 CDI, E400CDI, and S versions). I am very disappointed M-B has opted not to bring a 45mpg "C" and 40 mpg "E" or a 400 ft.lbs 4.0 liter twin turbo V-8 CDI in the "E" that gets over 30 mpg and to 60 in under 8 seconds to the US. I don't think we matter too much in the overall picture. Jim

This thread has really turned into a gem.

Randall,

Even though others have commented indirectly to your '86 300E manua vs. 5 series BMW, I would like to add this. I don't believe that the 300E was introduced to take on the BMW. It was merely the next introduction in that particular size. The BMW is thought of by many as a drivers car, and in that time period, that was accurate. That said, I still contend that the MB was seen as a luxury car like a Cadillac to most of the buyers of the MB's of that period, while the BMW of any size was seen as the performance model. That, I believe, is why the typical 300E buyer would not have bought any car, BMW or MB with a manual transmission at any price. IMHO I don't think the lack of sales of the manual 300E indicates very much about it's quality.

Everyone,

In reference to a 210 manual transmission car. I'm sure everyone knows that they are everywhere in Europe. I got in a brand new 210 wagon with manual transmission, two weeks ago this morning for a trip from my hotel to the Milan Malpensa airport. It was a kick of a ride, I only wish I could have been sitting under the wheel. The way they drive in Italy, with one hand on the horn most of the time, added even more to the experience. It was a little unusual with cloth seats, manual air conditioning, COMAND system and a stick shift. I only wish I could bring one to the US, manual a/c and all.

I do take issue with giving up my right arm. As much as I would like to have a manual transmission 210, body parts carry importance with me.:)

Have a great day,

Everyone,

I'm currently corresponding with a salvage yard in England concerning the parts required to convert my 1982 300D to 5-speed. They quoted me a price of approximately $1,100 for all necessary parts, plus freight. They didn't seem to think it'd be a problem, although I'm awaiting a detailed list of parts involved in the swap.

Although I don't imagine a Mercedes 5-speed would shift like the trans in my Civic, I think it would have to be better than the existing automatic.

Anyway, if it looks like it won't be too difficult a job and if I can put the funds together, I may try it.

Aaron Dolezal

Larry, points well taken. I don't care what any body says, when Mercedes produces a mid-range car, the bread and butter of their line-up, its to give the customer and competition a good run for the money. Economics and harsh realities aside, most people with 40 grand to spend on a car in 1986 had two choices, BMW or Mercedes, anything else wouldn't have left a good enough impression on the nieghbors... Common folk aside, if one has this money to buy a new car, most likely its not on a stick-shift, and if the performance oriented stick lover is gonna buy anything, its gonna be the BMW (thanks to image and reputation).

My comments in no way indicate the poor quality of a stick shift Benz, just the poor feel of its shift to the layman with no patience. The 300E stick also had the poor feel of its given market. Is is truely an esoteric ride in every respect. Therefore very collectable.

BTW, the 300E was sold as a high performance sedan. Never before had a Mercedes driven, handled or repsonded like the first 300E. Aerodynamics, engine and feel were all sport-like, (evolution aside) and the car was really targeted to the performance oriented buyer, and less to the economy-luxury, or "scientificly and balance wise" (as many a 240D were sold) diesel buyer.

I can remember as a young lad my father buying the 86 300E because of its hot rod prowress compaired to his prior Benzes. He also had the 533i, and well, a 300E was just the logical next step!

ALSO, a stock 300E can outhandle and out perform a 1950's Mercedes racer! Just another little known fact.

"I would give my right arm for a 2001 E320 turbo D with a stick, manual windows, no climate control, and a 45rpm phonograph!"
-- Jeff Biesenberger

How would you shift, Jeff? :)

I had the chance to drive a nonUS 78 MB 200 with manual everything and no power steering. Every shift was smooth whether you intended it to be or not.

I guess it would be nice to have a stick if I drove. Unfortunately, I commute. My automatics know exactly what to do when they see traffic ahead.

Sixto
91 300SE
81 300SD

Hi Folks,

If the original question was, can you mate a stick trans to a turbo diesel motor, then its a yes. I drive one. Its a 94 R- model Mack concrete mixer with a straight 5 speed stick. The combination is vertually indestructible, talk about torque. Empty the truck weighs 33K lbs, fully loaded 70+K lbs, that makes for constant driving & shifting changes.

I dont see what could be so impossible about making a pleasant driving 300DT with a stick. With a stick, its up to the driver to mate the gears & motor, so I would think it should be a smoother ride givin the drivers prowess.

BTW, a hundred years ago I owned a 68 200D 4 speed & loved it.

~George~

Yeah, good point. 18 wheeler tractors are turbocharged, and have like 20 foward gears and 4 reverse gears. I dont see how adding a turbo to a car would make the manual trans funny.. there are many gasoline turbo'ed cars..