Considering 617 vs 603
 

I'm considering the following two cars - both of them would require travel outside of my state, which I'm willing to do for the right car... Let me first say that this time both sellers are cooperating very well - which has been the biggest issue thus far in my long-distance-car-shopping adventure...

Candidate#1 is a 1984 300SD - as seen in this ad: http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/cto/1414499663.html
Female driver, odometer broken so approximate mileage about 170K - leather seats, pretty clean inside, no wear on the seats - dash has no cracks. She said the a/c compressor works but the a/c is not cold. The engine bay looks pretty clean, though the aluminum valve cover, cruise look pretty oxidized, not sure why?! Green coolant, the belts and hoses look fairly new. She said the pickup was not as good as the Isuzu truck she had before.... Some service records exist - asking price $1995, willing to negotiate.

Candidate#2 is a 1987 300SDL - as seen here: http://jacksonville.craigslist.org/cto/1422357388.html
The owner has car repair business - this was his mother's Benz from new. She was the only driver until 1 year ago when he bought her a brand new replacement Benz. He sold this car to the employee - carried the financing for him until the guy fell back on payments and the car was repossessed - looking to sell it now. Looks clean in additional photos he sent me - engine bay very clean but not too clean. Proper coolant in the expansion tank. Very clean and shiny IP. No records, but the car was maintained by two dealers in Jax, FL - they have records. Supposedly all systems are working. Appears very clean inside from additional photos. Asking $3500 - willing to negotiate.

So it's between the reliability of the 617 which seems to have been taken care of fairly well and what is seems like a clean, well maintained 603. The 603 is calling my name, but I know the parts can be more expensive and whatever I buy I'd like to keep for a while and use as my DD, including winter driving here in CO.

Advice, recommendations on which one to pursue?! I like the SDL a little better, but I don't want a money pit, if you know what I mean.

THanks,
James

A mechanic who thinks the SDL is a V6?

Well the 603 should have almost as good reliability, a little more power, and better fuel economy. However, that isn't worth a $1500 premium to me. And the seller thinks it's a V6. If you can talk "V6" way down on price, it would be worth it. Otherwise I'd go with the '84.

THe V6...
 

THe ad was typed (I'm sure) by his secretary/office coordinator who's been handling the conversation about the car. What would be a fair price or the max range for the SDL - about $2000-2500?

Does every SDL have the Trap Oxidizer, or only some models?! I didn't see it in the engine bay photos, but it may not be visible..

Also, what about the DIY factor - I've been getting pretty comfortable maintaining my 300D with your help here, not sure about the 603 - it looks somewhat more complicated.

The best is to drive one of each.

If all else is the same, the SDL is a longer car, has a more powerful engine that is also quieter, more efficient, and less maintenance. Although both engines will run the cars for well over 300,000miles if maintained reasonably, the SD engine has a reputation for being less sensitive to neglect.

It's always funny to me to see an ad for a car which is supposedly properly maintained and it has a broken headlamp door, about a $40 part, ...

Anyway, if the SDL has working A/C and the SD does not, it can already justify part of the price spread.

The SDL is about 6 inches longer than the SD and a foot longer than a 300D (123 or 124 chassis). It is a BIG car, great for the highway, a little less great in tight city traffic. Definitely more bells and whistles, more creature comforts, more room in the back seat and the trunk.

The 603 engine is not difficult to maintain -- no valve adjustments, for example. It is a more powerful, smoother, quieter engine that is nonetheless more fuel efficient than the 617 (I have one of each).

Air conditioning can be very expensive to repair so if that's important to you, you might choose the car in which it works rather than the other.

603 603!

Both?!
 

Kind of wish I could buy both of them, actually...... :)

once you go 603 you never go back to those 617's..

bwhahahahahahaaha

Perhaps his listings for cars are just typed in to fill-in-the-blank type categories. Such as Cylinders V___. :D

I would say go with what you want to spend. If you want to go cheaper, get the SD. If you want more expensive, get the SDL. Or you could lowball offer both and whichever person takes the offer, you get the car! :P Or I guess I could say whoever comes down the most.

Depends what you want, apples and oranges. Decide what you want, then go shopping for the best example you can find.

True...
 

Yeah... I just have hard time deciding what I want/need...

SDL

Unless you already have a 603 and you want and 1985 300CD to compliment it...then I can see a 617 coming into the picture ;)

I have heard that the 617 engines lose power a lot sooner in life than a 603. They wear the cylinder walls into an oval... The 603 doesn't have this problem, but might in the future have a head problem. If you don't let the 603 overheat, it will give you many years of problem free service....

naaaah.. unless its a 300CD with a 603 in it

I don't really see much difference in maintenance, engine-wise. The 617 requires an occasional valve adjustment but glow plugs require more work to change in the 603. Both require oil and filter changes and all of the other "usual suspects." The SDL will have more creature comforts, which are nice until they break.

For these two specific cars, I'd look closely at expensive things like the a/c and the sunroof. Air conditioning repairs can eat up a couple of thousand dollars very quickly, unless you have the skills and license to DIY. It's not a difficult license to obtain but not too many of us on the forum have one, I suspect.

If either the SD or the SDL has the same early pop-up sunroof as the 124 chassis (and I do not know if either does), reliability was not up to Mercedes usual standards (the later design in the W210 is much better) and repairs are very expensive. OTOH, you can survive w/o a sunroof. A/C may be another matter, depending on where you live.

These are both the 126 chassis, aren't they? There should be a lot of similarities making comparison easier. Budget at least $1000 for the a/c on the '84. It would be nice if you could arrange for an independent mechanic (meaning, someone working for you, not the seller) to do a pre-purchase inspection. Ask about paperwork showing evidence of past servicing. Any car this old has to have had something break and if there are records you have a better idea of how well the POs cared for the car.

Interesting...I wasn't aware that anyone had ever completed such a project. Is there anywhere you can buy a new 603 engine?

New 603...
 

Sure - you can pick on up right here: http://www.mercedesengines.net/ - happy shopping... :)

ebay, the forum, etc.. just need to watch.

$$$$$$$$$
 

A rebuilt -- not NEW -- OM603 from Metric Motors is $8,900. Interesting that they don't explicitly list the 300D Turbo (W124) but only the 300SDL. Granted the engine is virtually identical, wonder why they don't list both?

It really depends on what you're looking for. I'd go for the sdl cause I'd want something different than the 617/616 in my case. Just another project, more to learn about and all the advantages over the 617.

Where'd you hear that? My 330K 617 has just as much power as my 120k one. Im driving it to texas today for the second time this year even.



The 617 is the better engine. Adequate power, incredibly simple and easy to work one, almost as efficient. The 603 has more small parts to break and annoy you, same with its newer body. also if the 603 ever overheats, its a paperweight.

Buy whichever is in better shape. At this point a W126 is a W126.

I prefer the updated W126's becuase you get better motors and brakes. The SDL is a faster more comfortable car. After having owned both I think the 603 is a better motor, but the 617 is pretty good to.

Well, I thought I had read that on this forum. As well, a friend that has rebuilt a number of them told me that was a problem. He rebuilds the sd cars as a hobby on a fairly constant basis... He said at 300k it was a virtual guarantee that the engine would need to be bored and have sleeves put in...
As I said, I only heard...

Certianly oil pump drive chains, I have seen a number of those go bad on this forum around that mileage.


Most cars are pretty shot at 300k miles unless someone has done a ton of work to them. Its not just the motor.

Absolutely correct. That's why it's nice to find a car with a whole bunch of service records, showing what has broken and been fixed. Otherwise you gotta assume it's already broken or will break soon.

The 603 is awesome. Just think of a full size boat getting almost 30 mpg on the highway. My 87 300D is quicker than my 380SL. The 603 is smooth, quiet on the highway, and pulls through the entire rpm range like a train.
The only time you know its a diesel is at idle.

+ no valve adjustments.
+ better fuel econmy
+ more power
+ smoother, quieter
+ simpler oil changes due to better oil filter setup.

- extra maintanance on cooling system
- glow plug job a little more involved

Some maintanance easier on 603, some 617.
trap ox should have been upgraded to a new catylist further downstream.

Both capable of going 350,000 miles

My only real concern with the 60x engines is the Al heads. They work fine, just don't let the engine overheat.

Fair price for that SDL...
 

What would be a fair price range for that green SDL to offer?! I was thinking of offering $2500 to see if he'll go for it...

Yep, and find an example with reasonable mileage. IE under 150k.

In my opinion, the asking price is fair. Anything off that is pure bonus if its as clean as it looks.

If the car is right, and you test drive it, it will sell itself to you.

I only drove one 300SDL, it was an 86. It was NOT right, and I bought my 116 300SD instead. Both of my 87 124s are right, and make me smile every time I get in them.

What you "heard" was actually about the 1991-1993 350SDL/SD engines, which are a 603. The 3.5 liter version. They are notorious for failing due to rod bending.

Personally I'd buy either, but I like the 617 better, it is incredibly durable, has tons of off the line torque (nice in the city, its a rocket)...and I like the sound better....sounds more manly. :D

Mine has almost 284k on it and can still skitter the tires on dry pavement if I punch it. :eek:

The 617 has lower maintenance V-belts/no belt tensioner, and a tough iron head that is more durable in events of cooling system problems....

Valve adjustments are no big deal. Most only need it once a year, twice if you drive a TON. For someone who has done one a few times, it can take as little as 30-40 minutes to complete....its easy.

How do you intend to use the vehicle?

How much money do you have to spend on repairs and maintenance........per year?

Do you intend to repair everything that decides to break........or just ignore it if the vehicle moves forward under its own power?

Most of the aforementioned "opinions" are based upon personal bias........pretty much irrelevant to you.

That is what happened to me. I stayed away from the 'troublesome' 603 until I needed to replace my 300SD. I would never go back to the 5 cylinder now. The 603 is on the original head (#14) and has 320,000 miles on the clock. I have put 70000 of them on it and the engine has never let me down. It is smoother, quieter, much faster, and in a bigger heavier car returns between 2 and 5 mpg better than the 300SD ever did!

Now I want to get a 603 powered 300D to go with it...

IMHO, honestly, I would go with whichever is the car in better shape...

From what I've understood, the 616/617 can handle being mistreated more than the 603. If you take care of it (or the previous owner(s) have - get records...), then it should be a moot point, unless you plan on buying it, driving it into the ground, and then go look for your next car. I had a feeling that my 616 had been mistreated a little, but it was still pretty strong - despite wanting to blow the oil fill cap off if you loosened it (!). The odometer was broken, so I never really learned the mileage on it. If you neglect a 603, well, you might not have the same luck. A poor cooling system, #14 head, and an inattentive-to-the-temperature-gauge driver could spell a costly mistake.

If the A/C works and sunroof work on the SDL, that price is reasonable. When you look at repair / maintenance records, certain things can tell you how much an owner cared about the vehicle. Little bits of suspension rubber might be a good tip-off - it was for me. :cool:

Bidding for the 603...
 

Let the games begin... I'm trying to talk directly with the owner about the car and make a reasonable offer contingent on satisfactory inspection. As always, doing this long-distance is very challenging... it takes a lot of time and patience.

BTW - side note: for those of you who love snow, we've gotten about 25 inches the last two days and it's still snowing! For now we're trapped in our home and we're starting to feel a little cabin fever... hehe. It's Winter Wonderland out there....

Yup, my wife is pretty much stuck in the house.

Good news and bad news...
 

Well, I offered $2800 to the owner contingent upon satisfactory inspection by the MB shop of my choosing (Atlantic Imported Auto) - I spoke to Pat - the shop owner some time ago. He's been recommended on this forum and he's willing to take 1.5 hrs to look the car over nose to tail including the test drive, and comprehensive check (sans compression check) for a reasonable price....

Anyway - the owner had accepted my offer of $2800 contingent on inspection, BUT since he doesn't have current tags on the car he's not willing to take the car to the shop... so that's the bad news - so things may still fall apart on this but at least we're one step closer... :)

Wonder if I can contact the DMV to get temporary tags for the car?! Any advice there?

Keep your wrenches crossed for me... hehe
James

Good news and bad news...
 

Maybe someone (you or PO) would spring for a tow to the mechanic?

Or split the cost?

Towing...
 

Yep - in the works... the mechanic's shop is really close by. We'll see how it turns out. Man, the long distance hassles...

It is not legal, and I am not suggesting you do this, but I have been known to put my plate on an unregistered vehical to take it for a test drive.

thats pretty safe as no one will question it unless you get pulled over for something

That's the problem . . . the person in the drivers seat is gonna eat the ticket, and get it on their license . . . either seller or mechanic . . . I'd rather have it on a flatbed . . . (I have a CDL:D)

and lose the car.

yeah i just got from denver to co springs tonight in a lowered 300sd. it was a nightmare but i made it fine. luckily the rockies werent bad.

I wouldn't bother buying from people who don't have the car registered properly. Something's just off with that. Same for having a current inspection sticker. If the price is low to compensate for that, sure. But if they are asking an up-market price for it, then they better have it in a ready condition to be test-driven and taken to a mechanic for inspection.

Is the car that nice that you want all this hassle? Surely another one will come along if you wait a little bit.

That's a consideration...
 

The car is nice... but my my hassle-threashold is being tested... I'm giving it one more day to resolve before I walk away. I already told them that they need to have the car street legal in preparation for inspection, sale and delivery. That seemed to 'turn the lights on' for them - so we're giving it one more push today... I can still walk away from it, and may have to...

I had a 1987 SDL and currently have an 85 617 model. The SDL is very powerful and big but that engine is less durable than the 617 with its aluminum head which will spit a head gasket in a NY minute if you once let it get too warm. They are both overpriced. If you get the "87 I would replace all the hoses and belts and thermostat immediately and but an engine alarm to monitor engine temp. The smaller 123 chassis cars get better fuel economy than the 126 cars for obvious reasons.

There it goes...
 

So I think this episode of long-distance car shopping has come to an end... they couldn't/didn't want to get the car delivered to be inspected. We talked several times and the seller did not want to get the tags for the car from local DMV ($6.00) nor split the cost of a tow to get the car inspected ($50 each).... so I had no choice but to cancel the deal and walk... At the end there was something 'fishy' about it. C'est la vie - no skin of my back, just a lot of phone calls and wasted time I guess, but I did learn few valuable lessons along the way...

If you're still reading this 'blog' about my long-distance-fiasco - thanks all for all your useful comments and suggestions.