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-   -   Headgasket/Timing Chain/Front Gasket Triple feature! (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/269818-headgasket-timing-chain-front-gasket-triple-feature.html)

djustin973 01-19-2010 09:47 PM
Headgasket/Timing Chain/Front Gasket Triple feature!
 
So as we escape the arctic and start to have weather that allows human survival I'm beginning to plan a very large project, I almost venture to call it a partial engine rebuild. Serenity has always had two major problems, she leaks oil, and she always has water in her oil. The oil leak is coming from around the front cover and I assume the oil in the water means headgasket. Since these are two jobs that need to be done together i plan on doing them at once, and since the front cover will be off, I figure it's a perfect time to replace the timing chain and rails. My basic plan is...
  • Strap chain to cam sprocket
  • Remove sprocket after aligning timing marks
  • Remove head allowing cam sprocket and chain to pass through
  • Remove front cover
  • Replace Chain rails
  • Reseal front cover
  • Install head with new gasket
  • Reattach cam sprocket
  • Roll in new chain
  • Take a drive!
Does anyone have any comments on my plan or forsee an pitfalls, am I downright mad? If you were doing this would you work on the engine in place or pull the engine, do the work, and reinstall. Obviously the work would be easier with the engine out, but that does mean getting an engine crane and then there's that whole pulling the engine thing...

Questions? Comments? Snide Remarks?

strelnik 01-19-2010 11:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djustin973 (Post 2386428)
So as we escape the arctic and start to have weather that allows human survival I'm beginning to plan a very large project, I almost venture to call it a partial engine rebuild. Serenity has always had two major problems, she leaks oil, and she always has water in her oil. The oil leak is coming from around the front cover and I assume the oil in the water means headgasket. Since these are two jobs that need to be done together i plan on doing them at once, and since the front cover will be off, I figure it's a perfect time to replace the timing chain and rails. My basic plan is...
  • Strap chain to cam sprocket
  • Remove sprocket after aligning timing marks
  • Remove head allowing cam sprocket and chain to pass through
  • Remove front cover
  • Replace Chain rails
  • Reseal front cover
  • Install head with new gasket
  • Reattach cam sprocket
  • Roll in new chain
  • Take a drive!
Does anyone have any comments on my plan or forsee an pitfalls, am I downright mad? If you were doing this would you work on the engine in place or pull the engine, do the work, and reinstall. Obviously the work would be easier with the engine out, but that does mean getting an engine crane and then there's that whole pulling the engine thing...

Questions? Comments? Snide Remarks?
If you can afford the time, I would go through and pull the engine, but for other reasons. This give you the chance to inspect several items and replace them easily. In a situation like this, I would also check motor mounts, tranny mount, check condition of all oil cooler hoses,and AC; even, if I had the time, have the radiator boiled out by a pro while it's all out. This would mean, all things being equal that you probably wouldn't have to do any serious work on the car for maybe another 175,000 miles, which is pretty good.

When I get the chance, as long as I have the time and space, I use it to check out and replace such items as the exhaust manifold bolts, replacing them with stainless steel ones, and coat the threads with cupro-nickel high temp anti-sieze, so if I need to remove that stuff, nothing breaks. Stuff like that just makes life easier when you have to do a repair job and everything else is just going against you. My two cents.

Billybob 01-19-2010 11:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djustin973 (Post 2386428)
So as we escape the arctic and start to have weather that allows human survival I'm beginning to plan a very large project, I almost venture to call it a partial engine rebuild. Serenity has always had two major problems, she leaks oil, and she always has water in her oil. The oil leak is coming from around the front cover and I assume the oil in the water means headgasket. Since these are two jobs that need to be done together i plan on doing them at once, and since the front cover will be off, I figure it's a perfect time to replace the timing chain and rails. My basic plan is...
  • Strap chain to cam sprocket
  • Remove sprocket after aligning timing marks
  • Remove head allowing cam sprocket and chain to pass through
  • Remove front cover
  • Replace Chain rails
  • Reseal front cover
  • Install head with new gasket
  • Reattach cam sprocket
  • Roll in new chain
  • Take a drive!
Does anyone have any comments on my plan or forsee an pitfalls, am I downright mad? If you were doing this would you work on the engine in place or pull the engine, do the work, and reinstall. Obviously the work would be easier with the engine out, but that does mean getting an engine crane and then there's that whole pulling the engine thing...

Questions? Comments? Snide Remarks?
Plan for the worst case scenario that the cylinder head is cracked and damaged and will require replacement, because you could end up waiting weeks if not months to find a replacement if you’re not ready to send $2000 for a new replacement!

sasquatchgeoff 01-20-2010 08:06 AM
Engine must come out to do a proper job on the timing cover. While its out...well uhhh...you get the picture.

djustin973 01-20-2010 08:12 AM
I was hoping that would be everyone's response. Even with the extra work I was pretty sure the job could be done better with the engine out. Looks like I've got some fun ahead!

sasquatchgeoff 01-20-2010 01:50 PM
FSM method is pretty clear so a disc copy of the manual would be a must as well. Make sure you take the head to a machine shop for a pressure test. I got a 601 sitting on a stand in my garage right now...

Good luck,
geoff

jt20 01-20-2010 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sasquatchgeoff (Post 2386880)
I got a 601 sitting on a stand in my garage right now...

sounds like a lot of trouble if you ask me....

Brian Carlton 01-20-2010 01:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djustin973 (Post 2386670)
I was hoping that would be everyone's response. Even with the extra work I was pretty sure the job could be done better with the engine out. Looks like I've got some fun ahead!
You're looking at more than $3K worth of parts when you get into this deal............and a replacement head is almost a certainty.

Are you sure you want to spend that kind of money on an engine with 400K on the clock? For that money, you could find one with half the mileage and you wouldn't need to do any of the work............just the swap.

How long do you believe the lower end is going to last?

sasquatchgeoff 01-20-2010 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jt20 (Post 2386885)
sounds like a lot of trouble if you ask me....
Yeah, Every night when I get in from work it's staring me in the face. There's just something about an engine that needs work on a stand - tugs at my heart strings... :heart:

tbomachines 01-20-2010 02:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djustin973 (Post 2386428)
So as we escape the arctic and start to have weather that allows human survival I'm beginning to plan a very large project, I almost venture to call it a partial engine rebuild. Serenity has always had two major problems, she leaks oil, and she always has water in her oil. The oil leak is coming from around the front cover and I assume the oil in the water means headgasket. Since these are two jobs that need to be done together i plan on doing them at once, and since the front cover will be off, I figure it's a perfect time to replace the timing chain and rails. My basic plan is...
  • Strap chain to cam sprocket
  • Remove sprocket after aligning timing marks
  • Remove head allowing cam sprocket and chain to pass through
  • Remove front cover
  • Replace Chain rails
  • Reseal front cover
  • Install head with new gasket
  • Reattach cam sprocket
  • Roll in new chain
  • Take a drive!
Does anyone have any comments on my plan or forsee an pitfalls, am I downright mad? If you were doing this would you work on the engine in place or pull the engine, do the work, and reinstall. Obviously the work would be easier with the engine out, but that does mean getting an engine crane and then there's that whole pulling the engine thing...

Questions? Comments? Snide Remarks?
Honestly 400k with a #14 (failing) head you're just looking for trouble. I'd try and find a junkyard engine and throw it in, probably going to be more cost effective in the long run. THe money on timing chain and all that could be put into refreshing a different engine with many less miles. If water has been getting into your oil you might have really jeopardized your lower end at this point as well.

P.S. I will be doing the exact same job on my 617 when I yank it out...seems like a big project but it is logical to replace all of that at the same time.

jt20 01-20-2010 03:31 PM
before you buy any parts, open up the engine and measure some critical components like bore regularity and piston diameter. Inspect the head closely, as suggested.

at 400k you will need rings, but if you need pistons and sleeves.. that engine is not worth it.

tbomachines 01-20-2010 05:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sasquatchgeoff (Post 2386880)
FSM method is pretty clear so a disc copy of the manual would be a must as well. Make sure you take the head to a machine shop for a pressure test. I got a 601 sitting on a stand in my garage right now...

Good luck,
geoff

Hi Geoff, can you direct me to where it shows how to remove the cylinder head in the FSM? I have the CD and couldn't find it anywhere. For that matter the closest I could find to replacing the timing chain was replacing the cam gear and checking the timing. In the Technical data paper manual they only have the torque specs instead of the procedure. Maybe they simply have less info on the 617? Sorry if its an odd question.

sasquatchgeoff 01-20-2010 07:47 PM
In the 601,602, 603 FSM's that procedure is outlined in section 01. For my engine (602.911) it is 01-415.

Not sure what 617 manuals call out.

djustin973 01-20-2010 09:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Carlton (Post 2386891)
You're looking at more than $3K worth of parts when you get into this deal............and a replacement head is almost a certainty.

Are you sure you want to spend that kind of money on an engine with 400K on the clock? For that money, you could find one with half the mileage and you wouldn't need to do any of the work............just the swap.

How long do you believe the lower end is going to last?
I'm Curious how you got that number? Why 3K, that seems extremely high. Also I think the head is perfectly reusable, the "14" heads may have a higher failure rate but as long as they are NEVER overheated I see no reason they are a ticking bomb. As far as the bottom end, there is no water in the oil, there is only a small amount of oil in the water. The headgasket is not in dire need of repair, I would drive on were it not for the oil leak from the front of the engine that will require a new headgasket to seal to the front cover.

Hit Man X 01-20-2010 09:17 PM
I would pull it also. I did a top end, timing cover/chains/rails, oil pan removal on a BMW with the short block in the frame... never again. Would have spent less time and would have been able to install a new rear main also. Not to mention FAR more access to everything along with the ease to clean...

There is NO way I would reinstall a head without having it rebuilt, let alone not at least inspecting it. Plus with it being an early casting, I would look for at least a No 17. They are out there, you just have to look. Hell, most of the time people do not even know they are valuable. I paid $20 for one... but I am the proverbial junkyard dog.

The mileage is a concern to me too. I knew of one 603 running at 400k and it ran fine. Yet with the others, I do not think I would go that deep into labor with that high of a mile bottom end. Think of gauze and a Band-Aid when you need a hospital. It will only get you so far.


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