The W123 is actually not nose heavy at all. I put mine of 4-wheel race scales a few weeks ago. With a full tank of fuel the car weighed 3400 lbs on the nose with a 53/47% front/rear weight distribution.

I lost a pissed off 20 year old in a mitsubishi galant once after a chase halfway around town at 2 in the morning. I was driving the SD

Well, people have to understand the W123 is a sedan and it is intended to offer a superior compromise of handling characteristics at all design loads. So, a 53/47 ratio front to rear is very good without passengers or bags in the trunk. If the W123 exhibits any handling characteristic compromise that might be improved upon, it is the tendency to tip or roll at the initiation of a turn, which is significantly more pronounced with this chassis than the W115. The old chassis cornered much flatter, and was much better in transients, but was not as capable loaded.

In its day the W123 was head and shoulders above any other daily driver/taxicab favorite sedans on the market, and, to this day offers exceptional road manners for every day driving - meaning don't take it to the track and expect to out perform a W124 or later MB or other similarly balanced car, but excercise its solid dynamics in real world driving situations and the result is rewarding.

Jim

With a driver in it it will be better. With four passengers I bet its biased toward the rear.

I have weighed my 84 280e euro autocrosser and it was very near 50 50 with a driver, but it was heavy on the left. A passenger probably would have balanced it right out.

The us version of the 300d is probably more nose heavy than any other model. I have not weighed a 240 but I bet its very near 50 50 with a driver.

Nose heavy is a sixties or seventies american sedan with 60% on the nose and rear wheel drive!

Simply changing from 14" to 15" wheels made a huge difference on my car. Many have said that lower profile wheels are not worth it on a 123 but I would have to disagree. Better road feel, far more connected than the stock size. I would guess that 16" would be even better. RT

Tire selection does make a huge difference. The 240D came with 175-78/14's while the 300D came with 195-70/14's. Taking the 175-78/14's off and putting the wider tread on there was a big difference. I never tried changing the wheel diameter, but imagine it would do about what going from 16" wheels on my W210 to 18 inch wheels did. That was a huge change and made the steering feel more like a Benz of old (the W210 was MB's first rack and pinion set up and in my opinion it is a substandard effort - the old recirculating ball system was much better in terms of feel, likely due to the decades of experience MB had invested in it.

Jim

i like the rack and pinion in my 210. the steering feels way more precise than any recirculating ball steering i have ever driven. my 123 is lowered and has 18'' wheels and handles real well, all modern mercedes seem too soft for my taste, however even though the do roll quite a bit the grip available is amazing. the 123 does not have enough power to upset its grip in any situation i have been in, and you need to be on the throttle in the brake zone to keep a good exit speed! both of these cars responded really well to stiffer springs, better shocks and up sized wheels with performance tires. the 123 is amazing for a car of its age and the 210 is now a super sedan! the design and exicution of the suspension systems in both cars is great, but for spirited driving a little treaking really makes them more enjoyable in my opinion.

Regarding the large body roll of the W123 over the previous chassis (W114/W115) I think the reason MB did it that way, is to give the car more yield. I saw this link on Youtube showing the handling properties of the W114 in a test video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klu1hHQA_rU

And I think the reason they gave it more yield, is to "hold" the road more as somebody stated, rather than have one wheel come off the ground and lose control. It seems that the W123 and W124 both have larger suspension travel compared to the W114/W115, but of course the W124 already has the multi link rear setup and the W123 utilized the rear suspension setup of the previous chassis.

Compare the two:

The only Benz I have ever been truly disappointed with the handling of is the 1960's to early 1970's 230-280SL with the pagoda hard top. The cowl shake and just crudeness of the sedan hardware in the smaller body was actually alarming.

The recirculating ball steering system is sensitive to wear, and wear is a function of power steering fluid condition. Drive one with either a new box or a well maintained one without a lot of play - the W114/5 was a very well set up recirculating ball system. With the 18" wheels and low profile tires though, the W210 handles and has great steering feel. With the stock 16 wheels it is considerably more vague and unresponsive. Just my observations, typically reinforced this time of year when I put the winter sized all season tires on the car. Jim

The recirc ball offers a slightly progressive response to steering input. The first inch of travel does not result in a big change of direction. This makes a more stable car on the highway.

Rack and pinion offers one to one response off dead center, so it feels quicker, but is less relaxing on the highway.

The recirc ball will offer trouble free driving for a lot longer than the rack and pinion too, in my experience.

I like the quick rack and pinion in my Miata but while I am driving it on the street it requires a lot of wheel work to keep going straight as you traverse small bumps, dips and pavement textures.....never a dull moment!

And then there is the ride...

Drive a economy car for a while then get back in the 123. Notice how you can actually do the posted speed limit over the speedbumps and the car just soaks them up? Isn't that SLS beautiful?

I think for what the car is the handling is great. If you purchased it thinking you were getting a Porsche 914 then you may be a little disappointed.

both my cars do that with out SLS too. :D

I have often wondered if the 123 would respond to a 25-30% increase in sway bar diameter, as well as actually having a bar in the rear? Every time I've messed with springs in other cars the results were harsh ride and/or unacceptable loss of ground clearance. Sway bar upgrades however always seemed to work better for the money with less downsides. Of course, actually getting a new front bar into a 123 would be a project in itself..... RT

It already has a rear bar....unless its been removed. Let me know if you can find a larger bar for the front of a 123.

Yes, though such a tiny rear bar.

But if you have ever had a broken link, you know it does a job.

It does nicely with a larger bar in the rear. :D

I had help from my Garmin to push mine a tad.. My best friend and I were using my 300TDT 123 chassis this summer going all over. We routinely pushed it faster and faster. While the speedo only goes up to 85, Garmin confirmed 101mph with more pedal left.

We found it's handling capabilities on the back mountain roads near his home in WV and near my home in Sussex County NJ. Love the car, and for a 26 year old wagon.. it's great.

One time I was driving along on 421 north of here, at night in my 82 300TD, back when it was a fairly new car, with my wife and three or four kids with the car loaded for a holiday trip.

There used to be a iron trestle bridge which had these huge iron sides which wrapped up and over the top. The sides were right on the edge of the pavement so there was just enough room to meet a car or truck coming from the opposite direction. It was fine to drive through at cruising speed without slowing down but no extra room.

When we were perhaps an eighth of a mile away, there was a car ahead of us going the same direction which entered the bridge. As I approached the bridge, just as I was about to enter it I realized to my horror that the car ahead was barely moving and was stopped or nearly stopped in the bridge and I was running sixty five and was about fifty feet from the back of it.

It as way too late to stop and the only thing possible was a lane change. Now changing lanes at 65 in the confines of the bridge with a stationary car in it is nothing I would ever choose to do if I didn't have to, much less with my entire family in the car, but change lanes I did. I just steered quickly and precisely around the car and never lost a beat.

The little wagon just did exactly what I asked it to with no muss or fuss. I would not want to try that in any other wagon in the world.

Since I have been driving benzes mostly since about 1973 I can tell you there are a good many other instances in which I found myself in a tight spot and the handling of the benz allowed me to avoid disaster. This is just one example.

They are fine handling cars for what they are. They are not a Ferrari but then they will do a lot of things a Ferrari won't do too.

I definitly agree with you. Not condoning dangerous driving or stree racing, but not too long after getting my 280ce a guy in a monte carlo tried to race me going up 31 late one night. So we would get to a light and he would rev his motor and take off when it turned green. The banter went on for a few lights and then I said what the hell I am going to see what the 123 will do, and I let the guy have it. We hung pretty even until we got to about 65-70mph then the 280 murdered him:D. This is where it gets scarry:eek:. The road is very straight with the exception of one turn that can reasonably be taken at 40-50mph. Well I was going dubble that and when I entered the turn. I breaked as much as I could before I started the turn and just when I thought I was going to be on the morning news the car did something absolutly amazing. The whole rear end of the car hunkered down and stuck to the pavement like glue and I was able to make the turn. I never expected a car that size to handle like that and I felt in control of the car the whole time. I can honestly say that I feel like I owe my well-being on that particular night to the quality design and construction of the w123, and definately also to the man upstairs who made mbz possible.;) Needless to say I never had the urge to try that again but if I ever have to face another scarry situation on the road again I hope I am behind the wheel of an mbz.

I've taken a standard left turn at an intersection at around 40mph in my W126.....tires were squealing in pain, but it still went through the turn without losing its stance or tracking. Amazing. LOTS of body roll though, I was practically clinging to the steering wheel!! :eek:


Now the W124.....thats a a fun car. :D ;)

A well sorted W123 is very fun to drive. Just need to make sure you are at optimal RPMs or certain maneuvers.


Now the W124.... Mines like a gokart compared to the W123. :D

I've owned everything from 60's muscle cars to Korean econo-boxes, air-cooled VWs to pickup trucks, mini-vans to all-out sports cars. The W123 is definitely in the upper half of the gaumut of handling for cars up to and including its day. Probably somewhere in the upper quarter.

It isn't a sports car, and yes the body rolls a bit, and yes it understeers at the limit. BUT as others have said, its handling is very controlled and predictable. It isn't absolutely THE best for carving up a twisty road, or driving at 9/10ths - but then it was never meant to be.

It is a sedan (or in my case a coupe) and for regular to semi-spirited driving - up to around 7/10ths - it is a pretty darned good choice. The steering and suspension are more than up to anything its drivetrain can throw at it as long as you stay out of snowy or icy conditions.

Once the roads get slick all bets are off though. I got caught away from home in about a 1" snowfall a month or so ago. NOT FUN AT ALL! The torque of the diesel, the rear wheel drive, and the weight bias towards the front wheels combine to make a vehicle that is positively scary without snow chains. I've only had a couple of vehicles that were worse in the snow.

Two that come immediately to mind were a 280Z, and a Olds 442. Both of them had the same problems as the W123 - only more so! They both have 60/40 (or worse) front/rear weight distribution and an engine with way WAY more than enough torque to break the rear wheels loose...

If your 123 was scary on snow you have a tire problem, imho. They are very well balanced. Add a hundred pounds in the trunk and only 4x4s will beat you off the line.

IN snow, of course skinny tires with good tread work the best and those low profile very wide tires which grip so well on dry pavement? They are the worst on snow or water.

Weight over the drive wheels and good tread are the keys.

I drove my S123 300 TD Turbo into a 90* corner, icy road, stock tires(Winter), chopped 1,5 round without rubber-tops in the front, 120 km/t.
Was pretty shure it would go to hell, but the car got around the corner almost without trouble...

Slightly off topic but...
 

my w123 has more road feel than the w203 which is cool. Having said that, the c class sedan would run circles around the wagon in most if not all driving situations. Been in both and had to make emergency type maneauvers. I trust both nearly equally; I'd give the w203 a slight nod except that I typically drive the thing 15-20 mph faster than the w123...

Well, I have a set of 195/70/14 Falkens on it that are less than 1 year old and have great tread. Not exactly snow tires, but great rain shedding tread (which is much more often needed in this area than snow traction).

As far as weight in the trunk, I usually try to avoid carrying much, but at the time I had a brand new engine stand back there that weighs somewhere in the 50-75 pound range. I also had both my boys in the back seat - about another 120 extra pounds.

Still didn't get traction enough to keep from breaking 'em loose every time I put any real pressure on the go-pedal. On the other hand, the temps were well down into the 20's and it was a very wet snow that instantly compacted into ice under your tires.

For my money, when the snow falls, the Benz stays home and I drive the Jeep...

a turbo motor and automatic is a poor combination on snow and ice. a stick is much more controllable on snow for an experienced driver.

Yeah, I can buy that.

Mine has a bit of the "afterburner" effect going on once the turbo starts to spool too. I need to do a valve adjustment, timing check, and probably an ALDA adjustment to get the throttle response back to being more linear.

BTW, kinda off topic, but how hard is it to swap the ALDA from my old IP onto the one in my car? The one on there now has never been tampered with and the one on my old motor has already had the screw-protecting "cannister" removed. If its an easy swap I'd rather leave the one that is still original as it is and swap on the one that has already been modified.

Can I just remove the 4 screws and swap the top cap from one to the other, or would I need to remove the entire ALDA assembly?

I find the W123 in the 240D incarnation similar to a tank in the snow. I also run 195/70-14's - Michelins - the same size as rcounts. But in snow in any car, mashing the throttle is not a common practice unless I am in a parking lot doing donuts in the snow, trying to break the rear wheels loose. The brand of tire is not the issue.

The slickness on snow comes from the tire compressing the snow or ice enough to make it momentarily become a liquid directly under the contact patch. The liquid water as an interface to the ice beneath and rubber tire above makes for a near zero friction condition. The colder it gets the less water is made, until in really cold weather, no liquid forms. At that point snow and ice are not that slick and you can maintain pretty high speed around turns and can actually effectively brake.

Jim

It unscrews at the base.

I just looked at a couple of posted pictures and now I see that what I was picturing in my head as screws in all 4 corners of the top plate aren't screws at all - or if they are they're the end of screws that are put in from the bottom.

So, Bgkast, do you have an pictures or instructions showing what to unscrew to remove the ALDA? Is it mounted on a center "stem" with a locknut or what?

I run 195/70/14 Nokia snow tires all around with 200# in the trunk and my experience in the MB on snow is similar with the additional advantage of gently backing off the throttle till the wheels grab and continuing on my way. The slow throttle response and low speed torque of the 240 is really helpful in slick conditions.

Blizzaks will help
 

A set of Bridgestone Blizzaks would help snow traction in a 123 as they did in my R320.
My R class is now pretty unstoppable in nasty winter storms as opposed to white-knuckle scary at 35-40 mph in snow last season. Of course I can go faster than a RWD 123 due to the 4Matic, the ABS, ESP and stuff. I have to keep an eye on the speedo so I don't go over the posted speed limits of 45-55 mph during blizzards :eek:

LOL. except the w123 was neither high performance nor luxury, even by MB's standards. recall the S-class 450sel 6.9. Much nicer interior appointments, and the 6.9 engine speaks for itself. If any Mercedes of the 70's/80's defined luxury and performance it would either be the w116 or the r107, not the w123.

fully agree with this comment

I've never driven a W123 but I own a W114 250CE in the UK. You can really throw that car around in town. It's like a giant mini in that respect (the original mini, i have not driven the new ones). I'm not sure how well they handle at high speed but I have taken my 250CE to 115mph and it was rock solid. This was in the mid 90's and my other car was an 89 BMW 318i which did not feel as chuckable.

At the limit, you should expect any car with with IRS to be more predictable then a pickup with a solid beam rear axle because of unsprung weight. Pickup trucks have big engines and big axles and turning them too quickly would be like trying to spin a dumbell with your wrist too quickly, Force takes over.

I agree. There was never a pickup built that will out handle a 123.

From personal experience, I greatly prefer the handling and ride of the W116 (especially the 6.9 with hydropneumatic suspension) over the W123. The W115 I had was also better but not as good as the W116. The W124 had the best handling of any E-class I've driven though; too bad it's significantly uglier. :P