Handling limits of the W123?
 

Just curious here. How hard have you pushed your 123 in the curves, twisties, or whatnot? Assuming stock tires, how exactly did you find the handling "limits" of your car? :)

One only finds the limits by exceeding them…
 

This is not to be construed as advocating that you do so on public roads however!

The best way to find out the limits of any car is to take a high performance driving course using your own car. Not inexpensive, and I can just imagine the looks on people’s faces when you register with a diesel. :cool:

Another way is to find a large empty expanse of asphalt, like a regional mall or sports stadium parking lot (preferably without light poles, parking stops, & curbing). Go in the middle of the night, and have plenty of quarters in your pocket for the payphone at the jail. Just kidding...well, kind of kidding – you never know. The best time is when it is raining; the lower traction will mimic high speed handling characteristics to a certain extent, without as much risk.

A few tips: ALL street cars are setup to understeer, some more dramatically than others. Most Mercedes are moderate to heavy with understeer. Be aware that with a semi-trailing arm rear suspension, (like on the 123) if you build up to the limits of lateral adhesion in a fairly neutral drift, at the very limit the rear end will tend to come around with trailing throttle (caused by toe-out with the shifting geometry of the trailing arm & the forward weight transfer). This is what allows experienced drivers to rotate (yaw) the chassis when desired. The key words in the preceding sentence are “when desired”. If it occurs when it is not desired, it can be BAD NEWS. The chassis can also be ‘tossed’ to a certain extent, but that’s really counterproductive. You obviously don’t have the power (or a locking differential) to throttle steer it with a diesel.

So, learn the limits & then don’t exceed them whenever there is any possibility of harming anything or anyone other than yourself.

Have Fun!

RTH

I've found my car to be an excellent handler... I push my car daily, and I find it quite satisfying. Though some my differ, the w123 was hailed as one of the fineset handeling machines of its day, though the 123 is very conservative about it. There are no frills, or engineered sensations (BMW) when pushing a 123. I've had to run away from many a villan in my car, and the biggest thing this car has is its on road prowess, not speed. BTW, there is a 123 in that new Brad Pitt movie, a white one. I think its in a chase....

As mentioned above, throttle lift oversteer via the semi-trailing arm suspension is a great thing if you know how to use it. You can balance the natural understeer and expand the limits of the car a bit under certain conditions.

-Joe

I don't usually corner my 123 hard enough to cause it to slip out, but the few times that I have lost a bit of grip (with almost worn tires), the car slipped and slid extremely predictably. The problem with these cars I think is it's high center of gravity due to it's ride height and hefty weight (which I don't necessarily think is a bad thing). Because of this, I think it wide sweeping curves the car feels more cumbersome than it is as the shocks slowly give and the car begins to lean so much that you really have to hold on to something to keep steady in the seat (certainly not fun for passengers). In short "switch backs," the car is actually almost a pleasure as it can feel very tossable in short turns. I came across some lowering springs for a W123 280E and have always wondered if they could be applied to the diesel. I'll look up the website later on and post it here.

Power on these cars is surprisingly acceptable. I think tighter, tauter, lower springs made by a good manufacturer could make these heavy cars much much more enjoyable.

Going along with this same theme, would new springs help out the ride and handling of my car a lot? I just changed my old original bilsteins with new bilsteins and it made an incredible difference. I now wonder if I should have replaced the springs as well.

Alex

I can't believe that I'm here, reading a thread about 123 handling. I love to drive a 123. I feel confident and in control, but IMHO, come on, it's not a good handling car. When I think of a good handling car, my four wheel drive pickup probably handles better.

Don't get me wrong, I might be the biggest 123 fan in the world, but they're not known for their handling capabilities.

Just my opinion,

I have never pushed it hard enough for the car to slide or lose grip. There is just too much body roll, a very high center of gravity, and too much weight. We all know these cars were made to go fast on the Autobahn, not handle like sports cars, so you can't blame the W123. For what it is (a 3,600 lbs luxury sedan that was developed in the 70's that has a lot of weight, high center of gravity), it's a great handling car. I'm guessing when it first came out (like Randall mentioned), it was probably one of the best handling sedans out there, maybe only 2nd to BMW. And we all also know BMW's focus more on sport than luxury so there's not surprise there.

Well, I don't often disagree with Larry on much but in this case I want to make a few points.

First, the W123 was designed in the early '70s and built in the mid 70's to mid '80's. At the time it was one of the best handling luxury sedans on the market. I would suggest the W123 chassis defined the class of vehicles that evolved into what are now known as high performance luxury sedans. In fact, the then contemporary "S" class was named by Road and Track in around 1975 or so to be the best sedan in the world, and the W126 that followed, using the same basic suspension arrangement of the W123, was used by Bob Bondurant at his driving school to demonstrate classroom discussions on handling.

Compared to the standards of the average econobox today, well, the W123 is heavy and its suspension outdated, and it shows on a track. While many W123 owners never cared to find out how well the cars handle, they obviously enjoy the control and agility the car offers in every day driving. I would much prefer the precise feedback (I feel I know the location and can control the placement of each tire when I am driving these cars) and controlled transitions from understeer to oversteer I get from the 240D than the Nintendo feel of the controls in many of the cars of today with better track numbers. I am also not impressed with the new rack and pinion steering in my 1998 E300D TurboDiesel, as I really liked the feel of the recirculating ball system I grew accustomed to on all my previous Benz's and see no improvement (and possibly a slight loss of feedback) with the new system.

But to the original question, an my answer. I have been driving these things for over twenty years, so there was a time when I routinely pushed them just because. And I loved driving around the twisty roads in Upstate New York glued to the rear of a BMW 3 series, which I could not pass but could easily keep up with as long as there was no long steep uphill grade.

I found the only alarming conditions were in snowy or slippery weather, when the Diesel compression braking acting on the rear wheels could bring about a sudden and often hard to control tendency to swap ends. I am not sure if this happens with an automatic or not, but I learned to be very cautious and ready with the clutch if I backed off the throttle even slightly when I was in Alaska. There was this one stop sign at the bottom of little hill, and more than once I went spinning past it after a snowfall before I learned how seriously the compression braking was changing the speed of the rear tires. The engine speed would drop to idle and the car was still going faster than that, which is all it took on the little hill to get the rear tires to try to pass the front ones.

Overall I think the car has a chassis capable of much more than the engine can make use of, which is good reason to give these cars to younger drivers learning how to drive. Like Larry said, this is just my opinion. Jim

Sure the w123's don't handle like High end sports cars. You do have to understand that they are sedans that are used on public roads. That said, they handle darn good on public roads, a competent driver (you have to be somewhat smart to be driving a Benz) will know where his wheels are in relation to everything around him. The car behaves just like you want. I actually prefer my 300D over the Jetta I drove before (although I prefered the 5 speed in the Jetta and the greater control I got from it)

My first car was a 95 VW Jetta GLS with a stick. Loved the car, thought it was the best thing on wheels (isn't your first always the best?) BUT in time I found it crude, and brash. Got into plenty of trouble with that car, and I'm not talking the law here! VERY bad handler, but fun. The 300D is a MUCH better car on all types of roads, even given its weight and age. Its like 1000 pounds heavier, has only 10 more horses and is 10 years older. BUT still a better car. Okay, it cost twice the Jetta in 1984... Point is, the Merc is ahead of the game. Hell, my 123 has been known to fight and get the best of cars with twice the power, and twice the original cost. Depends on the circumstances. The 300D has never let me down and is more than adequate to satisfy this picky car nut.... (And yes, I have driven larger number Mercs, BMWs and Porsches as well...) And the 123 does it all so well without calling any attention to itself.

I'll give you the fact that the 3rd gen VW's were pretty crappy. The earlier the better except for the new GTi's. I started learning the driving arts in an 84 Diesel Rabbit at the local high school's parking lot, my first car was the 89 Jetta in my sig. I felt that the Rabbit was probably equal or slightly better then the Jetta in handling and "performance" (they both had 52hp)

I dunno what they did to the 3rd gen VW's but they were pretty crappy in respects to reliability and quality compared to the 1st and 2nd gen's.


But this is a MB forum, we all know MB's are the best cars out there. :D

Generally I think that W123's handle well but are hampered by body roll and isolated steering. Body roll and non communicative steering don't inspire confidence during aggressive driving. Before I got my '82 300D Turbo I had a '87 Jetta GL (blue/blue) which had little body roll and lots of steering feel.

It's odd that W123's aren't better handling cars since they have many revised and carry over parts from the much better handling W116 like the front suspension. You'd figure they would make the larger more expensive W116 the luxo cruiser and make the smaller, cheaper W123 a better handler.

that would explain it :)

I remember looking at the little plate on my Jetta that stated (in German, helps to know the language working on their cars :) )

"Built in the Federal Republic of West Germany 5/89"
I held a little birthday party on it's 10th birthday, it got a complete fluid and filter change, and a nice wash :)

The W123 is a very nicely balanced sedan. It will eventually slide when you've reached the limits of tire adhesion, but will give you ample warning (that is, handling will "fade" as you approach the limits -- so sudden "God let go" events like my old Audi Fox!).

It is probably unlikely that anyone will push a diesel W123 past the limits unless on a mountain downgrade due to lack of horsepower. The gas models can get you into trouble.

They do not tend to lose tires like the W115s, though, which is a good thing -- the W115s have very little body roll, at it is possible to force the outside tire off the rim in a fast, hard turn! Very scary, as the car will shoot straight off the road! The W123 will "plow" instead.

Snow and ice handling in diesels is bad -- too much torque!

Peter

Again,

IMHO, the 123 offers a feeling of confidence on the highway, or even a tight, winding, narrow, paved farm road. But, to imply that this is a great handling car just blows me completely away. This is NOT a sports car, it's a well designed sedan!

Of cars in it's class, a front engine, rear wheel drive grocery getting sedan, sure it out handles a seventies Crown Vic, or Caprice, maybe the same size car of the period would be a Fairmont or Malibu, but what about an equivalent BMW? Comparing to a Jetta is totally an oranges to apples comparison, the Jetta is front wheel drive for goodness sakes.

Again, I'm not bashing the 123, it excels in so many categories, the most important to me being it's long, reliable life, but get real, this is not a GREAT handling car, even for it's time period.

Another thing, I sure hope that I misunderstood one of the posts in this thread. One of them said, I think, that the 123 oversteers, PLEASE......

I bought my first 123 car in late '77, I drove a number of other cars that belonged to various friends as well as my own toys of the period, and even for it's time it was not a sports car. It was a great car to drive in which you felt confident driving.

IMHO,

Larry but explain to me this... Why does my 123 out handle most "sports cars/sedans" eg VWs. Hondas, Toyotas, Mistsubishis and what not? (AND yes, Larry, these are front wheel drivers, we're talking sendans for sedans, not platforms) I would say that a confidence inspiring ride and manner would satisfy my "good handling sedan" reference. So if the 123 is just a fine riding car, so is a 124 and a 210? What about a 126 and the 140, these all are not sports sedans, so they must not handle well either.

Now that I've shocked everyone and gone negative about the 123's that I love so much, I'm impressed by the zealousness of my fellow 123 enthusiasts.

When I think of great handling, to me that means sports car, go to the limit type handling. I think everyone here is speaking of just tooling around type of handling.

I'm impressed by everyone having such blind love for these cars. As they say, love is blind.

Long live the 123,

I've heard concerns voiced in this thread about compression braking causing instability on slippery roads. I live near the Poconos and have driven icy, alpine-like roads each winter since 1975. I've always subscribed to the practice of driving one gear higher than normal in slippery conditions. I've found that this practice lessens the degree of compression braking available, and makes for better vehicle control. Even then, like another poster, I often declutch (or shift into Neutral with an automatic) when I feel that maintaining perfectly equal rotational speeds on all four wheels will keep me out of the woods.

I'm not attempting to portray myself as an expert on anything for the simple reason I'm not, but at the age of 16, I was negotiating icy mountain roads in a 1976 Firebird Espirit, one of the most unpredictable, traction-free, miserable cars on the planet on icy roads, and lived to post about it. Truly trial by fire (and ice).

I've never driven a W115, but I would think it would have MORE body roll than the W123! No body roll means pretty flat cornering... a bit hard for me to imagine in a W115!

Front sway bar on a W115 is about an inch thick. Rear is also pretty stiff. Corners VERY flat -- almost no body roll in good shape (i.e. good sway bar bushings!). They sit a little lower than a W123, too, I think. Sure seems like it, anyway.

I was warned by my mechanic about the tire issue -- he's seen it often in Germany.

Nice throttle steer if you can set the car up correctly going into a turn, no reason to expect that the W123 would be any different -- more throttle the rear comes out and the turn tightens, less and the rear moves in and turn widens. Great fun to blast down a cloverleaf in a power slide in a 220D! (only downhill, alas!)

Peter

Attn: Donkey
 

I hate to disagree with a senior member and I hope not to get put into detention for this but.... not all of VW's firt 2 generations were made in the Homeland. Rabbits were made in Pennsylvania. Westmoreland, Pa. To be more precise. I had to use this as leverage to get my Uncle to let me park it in his driveway when I went to visit him. ( union ties and all that crap..i.e. DON'T EVEN THINK about parking that FOREIN car in MY driveway) So I asked him when Pa. left the US. I believe '81-'84 (square headlights) A-1 chassis were made in the US.
VW still can't make 'em handle like the A-1's did. I thought I posted about this last night, but I don't see it anywhere? ?When they went to the A-2's they ran into that "where is the road" feeling that is so apparent in most cars nowadays. The A-1 VW's were a drivers car.

That said, my W115 will take the same curves at much higher speeds on my route without me wondering when I'll break away and have to employ counter measures! BTW, thanks for the heads up about the "tires leaving" on the 115's I'll keep this in mind in the future! Tom

Our Rabbits had the round headlights

my mom wouldn't have the VW's built anywhere but Germany
(her being German and all.....)

Larry id have to agree with your comments above anyone elses.

When i first RODE in a W123 years ago, i thought it was the most comfortable ride i had experienced in a "small car" if you will. The first time i DROVE one was a different experience. At the time i felt the steering was balanced, yet heavy. I thought the car was geared towards ride and not handling. I still think this. A very BALANCED combo between ride and handling i must admit, and after a few thousand miles you become very confident with these cars. Today, i appreciate the heavy steering feel.
Ive pushed my W123 though some hard corners fast, and enjoy what those 14 tires can do, but really 15 inchers would improve things greatly. As for foul weather handing~thats where i am more careful. I can slip those rear tires easily from a stoplight in the rain. Never loose control, but that torque is just too much for those tires. These are heavy cars to be equiped with 14in tires, so please becareful out there, we dont want any of these W123s wrecked!

Oh my.... my SD turns 18 in February. What should I do for its birthday? Treat it to all synthetic lubricants? Perhaps...

Anyway, I thought my 1977 300D handled pretty well, and the last 123 I drove, a 1984 300TD, felt a lot more tossable than my 126. The 123 feels a lot more like a 108 than a 126, at least to my own limited experience.

I have had my share of white-knuckle driving in my SD, and I try to avoid taking it out in the snow. Mine will even slide pretty easily in rain, but my front tires are wearing fast.

I believe my 300D will be 20 this April, I gotta go look on the data plate

I owned my '77 300D when it turned 21. It became old enough to drink while in my possession, and no, I did not get drunk and drive it that month :)

My 126 300SDL is by far the best handling car i've ever owned. Blows away any 123. We've had some fun times together :) :)

Some of you mentioned tires on the 123. Tires are very critical on how the car drives in all conditions. I put Avon CR338s and the car handles well in the rain, whereas when I had the Cooper Trendsetters, the car was a terror. I can even get violent with the car and it tracks nicely in the rain.... Something to think about.

Oh, John, I think that nice 300SDL is sold, though this morning I saw it on the street with a window sticker... Possibly the shop owner using it??? I'm still thinking about it.

We had a 91 420 SEL, is the 300SDL any different with the handling???

For those who live in Norther California...
 

you should appreciate this.

I made it from McKinleyville to the 5 freeway via the 20 in 4 hours and 15 minutes. Not bad for a 79 123 I'd say.

Frank.

I can personally vouch for the tendency of the 175-SR14 Continental tires my 1975 240D came with to pop off the rims. I had two of them come off once, when I felt they should not have. Needless to say it was an experience I did not want to repeat. My solution was to run with 195/70-HR14 Michelin tires (XAS as the time) since they were rated for 20% or more higher weight, and provided better traction in all conditions. The car and I never experienced another tire come off a rim after that, which consisted of 200,000 miles and 15 years of travelling together across the country.

I agree the older car sat lower and cornered flatter than a W123 but it was not as comfortable a ride, and it is not really clear to me that it "handled" significantly better. The flatter cornering inspired additional confidence, but the ultimate limits were not a lot better than the 1982 240D we still drive today.

Jim

Correct me if I'm wrong, the W114/5 (stroke 8s) cars did ride lower, as with all Mercs of that era. But they also had a different rear end set-up. Where the 116/123 generation cars have semi-trailiing arms in the rear, the prior ranges had swing axles with compensation springs. My guess would be these cars were prone to jacking? Am I wrong here

hhhm..
I really wouldn't think of the W123 as a potent handler..

I just love it as a classic that doesn't look flashy yet it's something i really like.

My mum enjoyed driving the W123 more than the W124..
They are both manuals.. the W123 had a 4-speed stick and the W124 has a 5-speed stick.

She doesn't know much about power, engines, etc..
but to her the W123 had more grunt and she loved driving it more than the W124..
she also loved it because people were more scared of the W123 as it looked like it was going to the junkyard... (though it was a perfectly nice sample i thought...)

The W123 was a 280E
the W124 was a 230E .... yeah.. i think it has the same engine as the W123 230E... so maybe it explains the power deficit.

Both are Euro spec engines.. so that 2.8L I-6 was quite something hehehe..if only my dad hadn't sold it..

Both rode on 16" wheels and some 55 profile tires.
205/55/16

Randall:

Semi-trailing arms on rear suspension on W115s -- identical to W123 rear suspension. Maybe even the same parts! Ditto for the W126, just larger there.

The 1959 models had swing axles -- the large cars had a "tilting" differential with a spring and axle tubes, the small cars free axles with fixed differential and constant velocity joints. "Axle" located with straight trailing arms.

Pretty spiff for 1959 (along with the four wheel disk brakes!)

Zero offset front end came along in 1962, on a kingpin front "axle" setup, fully independent.

This means that MB used a semitrailing setup from 1968 to 1992, fully independent suspension from at least 1959, maybe longer.

Peter

Definitely earlier than ’59…
 

I had a 1952 220 Cabriolet A (significantly older than I, BTW) – it had 4 wheel independent suspension. The fun thing about it is that it was/is a pre-WWII wood framed body with long flowing fenders, landau bars & suicide doors, yet it had all the post war mechanicals – independent suspension, hydraulic brakes, and the 6 cylinder OHC engine (basic architecture which remained in production all the way up through the 280 series cars). Actually cruised on the freeways at 80+ like a breeze!

RTH

Larry is Right Again
 

Greetings All,

When first reading the post I just assumed it was concerning normal driving habits of the 123 chassis. It appears that someone wants rigid handling characteristics from a vehicle that wasn't designed for that purpose. Although my 123 is a wagon, totally different in handling I would assume than a sedan, on the worse side because of the wheel base as well as the added weight. Out of the three chassis designs I own I'd give handling more so to the 300E 124 series because it's shorter than my 126 and of course two years newer with design enhancements for handling improvements. I'm not saying it handles like a sports car, by no means but holds the road very well on the twisted hillsides we travel. Now, if I was late for work and speed and control of my vehicle were in dire need as well as sustaining an excess of 70mph speeds on curvy roads I'd take the '96 Ram 2500 with the V-10 to work. Although it's a truck, it's also a sports car in disguise because body roll doesn't exist and tires are your only weak link causing you to loose control by over driving your tires.
I hate to compare my Benz to a truck but I don't believe the folks back in the eighties that designed these Benz's were exactly looking to impress the younger generation with aggressive handling characteristics. The class of folks that could afford to buy them were most likely middle to upper class business folks that were looking for a comfortable ride for everyday use. As Larry puts it gettin groceries type of cars or long drives that still left you comfortable when you got to your destination.


Charles

Charles:

At the risk of seeming negative, I fear you are greatly over-estimating the handling of you pickup and underestimating the handling of your MB sedans.

MB sedans have traditionally had handling characteristics more like sports cars than touring sedans. It is only in the last 15 or twenty years that typcial autos were safe above 60 mph. All the early 60's American cars I've driven have severe handling problems of one kind or another, and the 50's were much worse.

The MB philosophy was that the car should hold the road (whatever that means!) at any speed the engine could produce. Diesels are usually somewhat underpowered, so I don't anticipate getting into real trouble unless driving like an idiot in bad weather.

Pickups, on the other hand, have very flexible frames (watch the bed and cab move independently on rough roads!), funky springs, usually much too stiff for light loads, much too high a center of gravity, an unlocated rear axle, usually on leaf springs (read serious uncontrolled wheel hop), and serious understeer with no caster to speak of. The LAST vehicle I would take on a high speed run on winding roads would be a truck -- I see too many of them upside down along the road from flipping over when turned to sharp. Serious rollover hazard, exploding tires or not, and NO rollover protection.

Stick to the sedan if you are in a hurry -- you might be surprised at how fast it goes without fuss -- my 220D is more fun to drive, but the 300D actually handles better.

The major difference between the 123 and 124 sedans are multi-link rather than semi-trailing rear suspension and better ride on the 124. It doesn't give quite the warning of impending loss of control that the 123 does, otherwise very similar. The front end on the 124 is a McPherson strut with large caster and zero offset scrub, but that isn't all that much different than the 123.

Peter

No Peter, I'll take your older 123 with my truck
 

Greetings Peter,

Do you own a '96 Dodge Ram 2500 p/u with the special handling package? If you don't I guarantee I will not only take your older Benz off the line but will probably finish a cigarette five miles down the road before you arrive. I have never seen a truck handle like this one does. It has a heavy camper shell on the rear so as far as weight distribution goes, it's probably 40/60 as it sits. Unless you are a Ram owner, perhaps there is one on this sight, you would be amazed at the speed and agility that this truck will travel. The body or frame flex you speak about isn't present like you think in this Ram. Yes, my truck could make your Benz cry with it's handling ability. If in the the Lake Ozark area, look me up and bring your Benz and a 12 pack for the winner of a forty mile curvy bout.

Charles

Charles:

Speed, yes, of course since you have at least three times the horsepower.

Agiligty? This I would have to see. No body roll doesn't mean good handling -- I'd have to see some comparison numbers for lateral acceleration, ability to change directions predictibly in a high speed turn (as when someone backs out of a drive in the middle of a steep curve and you are going too fast), etc, etc.

I know I can set the old 220D into a very nice four wheel drift on interstate ramps, I've never felt I was in trouble in it, and I've taken the back roads around here at 25 mph over the speed limit. I would not do this in a truck, sport package or not.

I do not wish to denigrate your truck, but it still has several serious suspension design items that will prevent very good to excelent handling -- live rear axle, low camber/large scrup radius front suspension, and excessively high center of gravity (unless you've tubbed it out!). These characteristics will limit lateral force development by excessive inside tire unloading (whether or not the body rolls much), incorrect camber on the rear tires, and excessive slip angle (understeer) on the front tires. It also wieghs considerably more than either of my MBs. The stiff tires help up to the point that slip angles get too great -- then you just grind rubber off.

My guess is that what you gain in acceleration, any good condition MB later than a 123 would gain in cornering ability. Slowing down for the turns will kill you overall speedwise, just like making an oops at the leeward bouy kills you in a sailboat race -- however fast you can accelerate, you've lost time. With the AMG package, there wouldn't be a contest, the MB would win hands down.

This is completely ignoring driver ability, and I'm the first to admit I'm not a race driver.

Peter

I won't state a pick up truck vs. sedan opinion one way or the other. But I do want to chime in with something I read in R & T a number of years ago.

The article was about pick ups and how many owners speak of their great handling trucks. It also showed statistics about handling related accidents with pick up trucks.

Most people who go racing down a winding country road in a pick up do it with the truck empty. Most people don't think about doing that while the truck is heavily loaded. While empty the vehicle typically has weight distribution imbalance that is unreal. Within certain limits, a good pick up can feel great. When you approach those limits, however, these flexiframe flyers with extremely unbalanced weight distribution can fool the best of drivers. At least that's what the statistics in the article showed.

When we started doing our highly unscientific surveys around the office, we found that everyone there told us how great their pickup truck handled. It wasn't two weeks after that when one of these guys put his pickup in a lake. He wasn't hurt physically, but I don't think he ever was able to live it down around the office.

BTW, MY PICKUP HANDLES GREAT!!!!:D

Sorry, just couldn't control myself,

RE: 3/4 ton pickup vs. W123

I love this thread.

I'm sure that on a billiard table-smooth road, you can hustle a Ram 2500 along at a good pace, just as I am sure you could in a Hemi-powered Conestoga wagon. Now try the same exercise on a road that has a rough or rippled surface on its curves. I believe you'll find that the rock-hard spring rates, front-biased weight distribution and high unsprung weight will conspire to put you butt-first into the weeds long before a w123 driver will break a sweat. My daily driver is a Ford Expedition, so I'm well aware of the improvements made in light truck handling over the last 10 years. However, I also know that our old 190E 2.3 could run away and hide from it on the road surface described above!

Don't confuse flat cornering with good all-around handling.

This actually hits home...
 

I've gotten into a lot of run-ins on the road with pickup/SUVs. I can't tell you how many times, I've had to RUN AWAY from these nieanderthals on the road due to some careless gesture/remark/course of action. And I must say, the 123 never fails. My 300D has embarrassed many a car, no less pickup! Some notable contenders were: Cadillac Escalade, Yukon Denali, Dodge Ram, Jeep (every kind) and lately, a Doge Ram (number, I'm not sure). Now clearly, the truck in question the v10 Ram is a Viper with big wheels (if I'm not mistaken). The trucks I've run from were not street trucks, but truck-trucks! Well, the 123 can handle the truck-trucks. On any on-road situation!

This is an awesome thread!

We are getting closer to the issues that distinguish good handling from not so good, or poor, handling in a vehicle.

German roads in the 50's, 60's, 70's and later were not all autobahn like strips of slightly curved, very smooth pavement. In fact, if you were in a city you likely often drove on cobblestone roads, with streetcar tracks crossing, and very little manuevering room between parked cars and other objects. In these circumstances a tight turning circle and a suspension system that kept the tires in contact with the road were considered high priorities. In the country, if you happened to be driving somewhere that did not have an autobahn exit nearby (which was most of the country, and most of Europe, at the time), you were going to drive on roads that were narrow, winding, with farm equipment, and other peculiar trucks that struggled to get up hills and around curves. You were also likely to want to go throught the Alps on some really challenging roads on the way to Italy and Yugoslavia (yeah, I know it is called something else now), both favorite German areas for vacationing in late July and early August. Here the need for brakes that did not fade, and a suspension that kept the tires in contact with the road (a concept Mercedes-Benz engineer Rudi Uhlenhaut coined to differentiate the Mercedes-Benz suspension design characteristics from those used on American and English luxury cars of the time, which would appear to be to smooth the road at the expense of control) was clearly a priority.

So when I say a W123 is a good handling car, it is because it is endowed with features that in its day were pretty exotic, like light weight, stamped steel semi-trailing arms, various aluminum bits and so on for low unsprung mass, four wheel independent suspension, gas filled shocks, anti-dive and anti-squat geometry, roll bars front and rear, four wheel disc brakes, radial tires, exceedingly stiff chassis, and so on. Together these features combine to provide a balance of handling characteristics that in the real world, driving down a mountain road with patched pavement and the occasional fallen rocks on the roadway and a slow moving truck just behind a curve you are taking at twice his speed, allow you to maintain control and safely respond to unexpected events. This makes driving a pleasure, in my experience.

Today you will find even cheap econoboxes with some or most of the hardware. They even seem to handle ok under most conditions, and in some cases good enough to encourage some drivers to push their limits. But under really trying conditions they typically give notice they have run out of margin too late. The integration of the hardware and the chassis to achieve the level of "performance" Mercedes achieved even with the W114/115 chassis is something these cookie cutter cars have yet to achieve.

That said, I think a W123 would have a difficult time on a track compared to most cars offered today, even the cheap econoboxes and pick-ups. But in real life situations it is no contest. I think that applies to trucks too, as I cannot imagine a truck, with a truck rear axle arrangement, keeping its tires on the pavement over bumps and curves going down a hill where the weight shifts forward even more. As for torsional stiffness, a ladder frame with a box screwed to the top just won't duplicate the W114/115, much less the W123 or W124 chassis. I am not a pick-up truck afficionado, but I have not heard of a unibody pick-up chassis and box. Could be the RAM has that but with an open box, hinged tailgate and screwed on, or pinned cap, it still won't come close to a unibody sedan like the W123.

I would find an unloaded pickup with a 40/60 weight distribution (front 40%, rear 60%) seriously impractical as loaded (for a V-10 powered machine, put a ton in the bed, for example) it would go to over 20/80, and that would be a true handling oddity. Even a 40/60 ratio unloaded would be a problem as the tendency would be to ignore the front wheel attempts to change the whole vehicle's direction when the steering wheel was turned on anything but smooth, dry pavement.

I think some of the tippiness of the the W123 puts some drivers off when the opportunity or need to push the car is presented. The tippiness is a consequence of the goal to provide a smooth ride under normal driving conditions. Once you start to push the car, it does not continue to roll over at the same rate - it takes a set and becomes very predictable. After you get to know this, the car can be pushed quite hard, and driven in a manner that is fun as well as comfortable and controlled.

Jim

Well said, Jim:

If you really want a scare, go find a middle 50's sedan and drive it on a twisty road. You know those silly "15 mph" curve signs for curves you normally take at 35? Guess why it says 15!

American cars didn't achieve decent driving characteristics until the late 80s, by and large. Up till then horrendous understeer complicated by serious body roll oversteer (when the inside rear tire came off the road!) was the norm. Step on the brakes and the rear end switched places, as the front end slammed down on the bump stops and the rear tires locked up. Yikes!

Everything today, including pickups, is vastly better. I don't know of any car produced in the last ten years that had any serious handling defficiencies. Not great, maybe, but no "jesus, I'm flying" sorts of defects.

What has happened, of course, is that the MB standard is being applied to everything, not just MB sedans and sports cars.

I've yet to make the tires squeal on my MBs -- just don't seem to have the urge like I used to, and it just never seems to happen, no matter how hard I have to corner in a surprise right angle turn. I've never slid the tires stopping, either (can't on the 300D). The amount of side force these things can generate without protest is amazing -- I'm sure my sister avoided a collision (got hit by flying debris) because she flinched and jerked the wheel in the 300TE -- actually jumped over about 4 feet. My brother and I duplicated the manouver in the car later -- snap the wheel over and back up like one would when one ducks, and the car moved over half a lane!

Peter

snow and ice handling
 

psfred mentioned that snow and ice handling with the diesels is bad due to too much torque. Not long after I bought my 123 diesel, i accidentally hit the cruise lever when reaching for the directionals to change lanes on a highway going 60mph in a snow storm!!!! It took me about 5 seconds to figure out what the hell was going on!!! It felt like aliens were taking me away....some other force was controlling the vehicle while I hung on for the ride doing my best to control it......fun ride!!

I think you nailed it right there, Jim.

The only thing I couldn't find mention of in this thread was the match between the differential and the turning radius. It seems related to oversteer since the car is being pushed at a different trajectory, but on slow turns that should not normally impose a loss of traction, I have noticed that giving the car a good push from behind when turning at close to max radius causes slippage in the front end.

Is this a design flaw?

Not in MB's opinion. They view that as safer than to have the machine swap ends if the rear lets go first. All MB's are intended to have understeer at the limit. Jim

I have always found them to be pretty neutral at the limit, and very very safe and enjoyable to drive fast in.

LOL...I can't believe you guys are discussing the handling limits of a W123. It's definitely not a sports car, it's a huge heavy brick with hardly any horsepower and a HEAVY engine over the front wheels. It's an understeering pig. I can't go more than about 10MPH at full lock without the car just going in a straight line lol.

My 560SEC on the other hand, handles quite well, but you have to be awake because it can oversteer very easily if you don't treat the throttle like it's made of glass.

I have driven probably a half million miles or nearly so in a 123 and probably well over 120,000 in a 126 mostly in an SEC. I find your statements not to match with my experience.

The 123 is neither heavy, nose heavy nor a brick (at least not a really bad brick).

In fact the 123 and 126 are very close in weight with the 126 being a bit heavier.

All benzes I have owned from 123 onward have been very well balanced. I had a 115 body 300d which felt heavy in the nose though.

If you read Jim's statements as well, you would understand what it was designed to do. In this case, its LIMITS are a success.