Diagnosis: Injection pump rebuild ... $1,100 ... ouch! - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

FinnJohn · #1 10-21-2010, 11:31 PM

Hi guys, I have a question for you again. I searched the forum but couldn't find anything on it.

My injection pump is leaking diesel all over and I just got word that it's pretty much a basket case. A local outfit wants more than a grand to go through it, but I'm seeing several of them on eBay, used, for $100 or $200. Do these fail a lot? Is it a bad idea to take a chance on one of these used ones? Or is there a source of rebuilt units that cost less than $1,100?

One other thing -- will veg oil ruin IPs? Do I need to worry about whether a used IP comes from a vegmobile?

Thanks!

--Finn

Aquaticedge · #2 10-21-2010, 11:41 PM

It's honestly easier to replace them with a junkyard find... usually you can return them if they dont work. or there's prolly a couple on here for sale,

pawoSD · #3 10-21-2010, 11:54 PM

I wouldn't touch an IP used with veg oil with a 20 meter pole.

layback40 · #4 10-22-2010, 01:30 AM

Veg oil = IP failure. I suspect that you have bad delivery valve seals. A junk yard pump is the easiest way out.
"I wouldn't touch an IP used with veg oil with a 20 meter pole."
He is brave !!! I would turn & run !!!
Give it time and some one will tune in & offer to sell you one. Maybe some one who likes tinkering will do you a deal on a change over.

gastropodus · #5 10-23-2010, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by layback40

Veg oil = IP failure. I suspect that you have bad delivery valve seals. A junk yard pump is the easiest way out.

Hey layback40,

I, too, have heard that the delivery valve seals are the usual source for fuel leaks, especially when the whole top of the pump is wet with fuel (don't ask me how I know this). I've been told, however, that it's not that big a deal to replace the o-rings and crush washers to effect a cure. I've ordered o-rings and washers, and hope to cure this problem on my W201. Am I foolish to try?

Kurt

tankowner · #6 10-23-2010, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FinnJohn

My injection pump is leaking diesel all over and I just got word that it's pretty much a basket case. A local outfit wants more than a grand to go through it, but I'm seeing several of them on eBay, used, for $100 or $200. Do these fail a lot? Is it a bad idea to take a chance on one of these used ones? Or is there a source of rebuilt units that cost less than $1,100?

--Finn

Finn, what exactly is a "basket case" IP and how exactly do they want to "go through it"? Have these guys explained what they believe the problem is and how they intend to fix it? How did they arrive at $1,100? What problems are you having? Where is the fuel leaking from? If it's just an issue of resealing the delivery valves, it would only cost you about $50 (including the necessary socket) and a few hours of your time to do it yourself. You can find the DIY info here, but first you need to know what the problem is.

layback40 · #7 10-23-2010, 02:23 AM

Kurt,
I think there is a DIY on it on here some place. I havent done it on a mercedes but it cant be that hard.

benzhacker · #8 10-23-2010, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FinnJohn

Hi guys, I have a question for you again. I searched the forum but couldn't find anything on it.

My injection pump is leaking diesel all over and I just got word that it's pretty much a basket case. A local outfit wants more than a grand to go through it, but I'm seeing several of them on eBay, used, for $100 or $200. Do these fail a lot? Is it a bad idea to take a chance on one of these used ones? Or is there a source of rebuilt units that cost less than $1,100?

One other thing -- will veg oil ruin IPs? Do I need to worry about whether a used IP comes from a vegmobile?

Thanks!

--Finn

The IPs mostly do not fail - they leak and need to be resealed. With the advent of recently mandated ULSD (15 ppm vs 500-1500 ppm sulphur) the seals shrink and the lubricity reduction that has resulted does impact the fuel elements which receive their lubrication entirely from the fuel. The question of whether the IP has been used with SVO/WVO is really not relevant - unheated veg oil can result in coking and deposits on the piston rings and valves, but WVO/SVO does not otherwise "damage" the pump itself and it's increased lubricity may actually do a better job at lubricating the pump than old fashioned #2 when it had at least 500 ppm of sulphur in it.

Used injection pumps can be had for between $100 and $350 from eBay and Mercedes wrecking yards with all or most of the components still attached (VCV, ELR, ALDA, stop actuator, etc.). A properly rebuilt pump will replace any worn or damaged hard parts and all seals, recalibrate and test delivery. Average price for this service at most Bosch depots is about $900-$1000, some diesel shops can do it for a bit less, $750-800.

The biggest complaints with these near bullet-proof IPs is the aforementioned oil and fuel leaks - they tend to leak oil from the bottom cover, sometimes the rear cover. The lift pump can get noisy and occasionally leak at the gasket. The delivery valves tend to leak when the o-rings shrink. Problems with ALDA and the stop actuator are common (ruptured diaphragms). ALDA can be rebuilt, but the stop actuators are sealed units (but not expensive). ELR is electromagnetic and has only an O ring behind it which can occasionally spot a bit of oil.

To achieve the original 0-60 times, the IP should be resealed and re-calibrated (at the minimum) and 150-200K miles is probably a good rule of thumb even though they will continue to work pretty well while leaking with weakened springs. They certainly won't last as long on a diet of the new ULSD #2 or the increasingly rare #1 fuel which was already quite low lubricity compared to the old #2. Biodiesel blends of B2-B5 do a good job of replacing the function of the sulphur and do a better job with no significant loss in coloric energy per litre (no appreciable loss of mileage).

Buying a spare IP may be prudent if you can buy a good used one for around $250.00. You can have the "spare" resealed/recalibrated at your leisure while you tool around with the "old" IP until you are ready to have the resealed IP installed and timed per the FSM. While you are at it, you should consider having the injectors cleaned off, nozzles cleaned or replaced (Monark's are my current favorite), pattern, flow and pop tested per the FSM within a range of 135-145 bar, with no greater than 5 bars between any two injectors (balanced). I also take a hard plastic bristle brush to the pre-chambers and check the glow plugs, replace if old after brushing out the bores.

I wouldn't be a afraid of a used injection pump and the spectre of the WVO/SVO hobgoblin should not frighten you either.

Warm regards,

-bh

04 Diesel · #9 10-23-2010, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gastropodus

Hey layback40,

I, too, have heard that the delivery valve seals are the usual source for fuel leaks, especially when the whole top of the pump is wet with fuel (don't ask me how I know this). I've been told, however, that it's not that big a deal to replace the o-rings and crush washers to effect a cure. I've ordered o-rings and washers, and hope to cure this problem on my W201. Am I foolish to try?

Kurt

Changing the washers and o-rings is easy, you should try that first. Just make sure everything is clean.

Bill Ladd · #10 10-23-2010, 12:01 PM

I assume you're talking about your 240d, yes? If so, a quick search brought up this. It pertains to early 300d, but i think the delivery valve arrangement is the same.

The 240s I've looked at look the same as my 617sd engine, but I may be wrong. Due diligence here with the search function should bring up what you need.

617 Delivery Valve Leak & Repair

#11 10-23-2010, 12:13 PM

I think I paid about $1000 for a rebuilt 617 part. Either that or take your chances with a used one, assuming it's not just the seals.

charmalu · #12 10-23-2010, 12:39 PM

A used IP from PNP is about $50. you pull it though.

Charlie

panZZer · #13 10-23-2010, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benzhacker

The IPs mostly do not fail - they leak and need to be resealed. With the advent of recently mandated ULSD (15 ppm vs 500-1500 ppm sulphur) the seals shrink and the lubricity reduction that has resulted does impact the fuel elements which receive their lubrication entirely from the fuel. The question of whether the IP has been used with SVO/WVO is really not relevant - unheated veg oil can result in coking and deposits on the piston rings and valves, but WVO/SVO does not otherwise "damage" the pump itself and it's increased lubricity may actually do a better job at lubricating the pump than old fashioned #2 when it had at least 500 ppm of sulphur in it.

Used injection pumps can be had for between $100 and $350 from eBay and Mercedes wrecking yards with all or most of the components still attached (VCV, ELR, ALDA, stop actuator, etc.). A properly rebuilt pump will replace any worn or damaged hard parts and all seals, recalibrate and test delivery. Average price for this service at most Bosch depots is about $900-$1000, some diesel shops can do it for a bit less, $750-800.

The biggest complaints with these near bullet-proof IPs is the aforementioned oil and fuel leaks - they tend to leak oil from the bottom cover, sometimes the rear cover. The lift pump can get noisy and occasionally leak at the gasket. The delivery valves tend to leak when the o-rings shrink. Problems with ALDA and the stop actuator are common (ruptured diaphragms). ALDA can be rebuilt, but the stop actuators are sealed units (but not expensive). ELR is electromagnetic and has only an O ring behind it which can occasionally spot a bit of oil.

To achieve the original 0-60 times, the IP should be resealed and re-calibrated (at the minimum) and 150-200K miles is probably a good rule of thumb even though they will continue to work pretty well while leaking with weakened springs. They certainly won't last as long on a diet of the new ULSD #2 or the increasingly rare #1 fuel which was already quite low lubricity compared to the old #2. Biodiesel blends of B2-B5 do a good job of replacing the function of the sulphur and do a better job with no significant loss in coloric energy per litre (no appreciable loss of mileage).

Buying a spare IP may be prudent if you can buy a good used one for around $250.00. You can have the "spare" resealed/recalibrated at your leisure while you tool around with the "old" IP until you are ready to have the resealed IP installed and timed per the FSM. While you are at it, you should consider having the injectors cleaned off, nozzles cleaned or replaced (Monark's are my current favorite), pattern, flow and pop tested per the FSM within a range of 135-145 bar, with no greater than 5 bars between any two injectors (balanced). I also take a hard plastic bristle brush to the pre-chambers and check the glow plugs, replace if old after brushing out the bores.

I wouldn't be a afraid of a used injection pump and the spectre of the WVO/SVO hobgoblin should not frighten you either.

Warm regards,

-bh

Nice info --on the 85 mw pumps with the ELR can we just get the cover off an earlier one and remove it of we have already done so with the egr--or is the moving part in there need to come out also-?/

The delivery valve seals are the main thing I would not like about the M pumps and $1100.00 Good frikkin Lord--I could almost cover having some of toms 6.5 elements done to the MW for that---To the first poster, i'de tell them -I dont think so, and I would NEVER go to that shop again and spread the word to other euro car owners to also not.

gastropodus · #14 10-23-2010, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux

I assume you're talking about your 240d, yes? If so, a quick search brought up this. It pertains to early 300d, but i think the delivery valve arrangement is the same.

The 240s I've looked at look the same as my 617sd engine, but I may be wrong. Due diligence here with the search function should bring up what you need.

617 Delivery Valve Leak & Repair

Lux, not sure if you're addressing me, but it's actually my 190D that is leaking all over the place on the top of the injection pump. Mike Burback told me that it was almost certainly the delivery valve seals. I'm waiting for the spline tool to arrive, and then I'm going to replace the seals (washers) and o-rings.

Kurt

jonbobshinigin · #15 10-23-2010, 04:11 PM

You need to get the car to a Euro mechanic who knows what he is doing...he should be able to guide you in the right direction. If it is only leaking fuel, but otherwise running fine, it is probably just the delivery valves. The Delivery valve is simply where the injection lines connect to the pump. Very easy to do!